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Grymmoire

DooM Fusion Mapping - Scrapped

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A short while ago I came across an interesting concept and now I decided to build on it. Decided to post this here too in case some Doomworld only people seemed interested, although I didn't intend for this to be my first post here, heh.

Essentially the concept is this: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=12117/

The concept is to "fuse" two Classic DooM maps of your choosing and integrate them into something new. Like Nick Baker's map above takes E1M1 and mixes it up with Map01 (DooM 2) to create a rather interesting combination, the result is something new yet nostalgic.

So without further ado, here are the guidelines:

Gamplay Guidelines

  • Jumping and crouching should not be required to complete your map
  • Pistol start
  • Custom textures are allowed
  • Custom monsters are allowed (although try to use them well)
  • No custom weapons
General Guidelines
  • Any two map styles can be mixed together, Phobos Anomaly+Tower of Babel, Command Control+Underhalls, Spirit World+Entryway, etc.
  • Map/Style combinations must be from classic iwad (Ult. Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom)
  • State the maps you used with your submission
  • As a general rule of thumb, try to not just strew together pieces of the two map styles, do not just retexture a copy of a classic map (not sure if that's even legal), and do not be TOO exact with the base layout (Try to deviate, create something new, while staying true to the original)
  • Just because your map is based off E1M1 does not mean it has to be as hard as E1M1, as long as it's from pistol start the map should give the player an interesting time.
  • You can have more than one submission
  • Software renderer compatibility is not an issue. Feel free to use 3d floors and the latest zdoom features, or not, your choice. State whether your map is software friendly when submitting.
  • UDMF map format is preferable, but any Boom-compatible map format is fine.
  • You can post your submission here, or send it via PM if you wanna keep it a surprise or something
  • Put some effort into the map, don't throw something together in 10 minutes with little regard to the fact that others are gonna have to play it, make it worth someone's time to play, make it interesting, just make a decent map as best as you can ;)
EDIT: I've decided not to force pistol start with MAPINFO (But still make sure your map is pistol start friendly), therefore the whole project can now be Boom-compatible. But considering the allowance of custom monsters and new ZDooM features, state the compatibility of your submission, whether it's Boom-compatible, ZDooM specific, or uses OpenGL features as well.

EDIT2: You can use Chex maps in your map fusions BUT it has to be a Chex map fused with a Doom/Heretic map done in Doom/Heretic style. The Chex style is just too "clean" for demons and blood and gore and general Doom stuff.

If you aren't sure what to do, you can use Nick Baker's map linked above, or my map linked below, as a reference, but keep in mind that just because it's an E1M1 mix up doesn't mean it has to be as hard as E1M1 :P

I think that pretty much sums up the gist of this project, now here is my submission:

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?hmmcc0o3pz771ah (Command Control , E1M4, and Underhalls, Map02-Doom 2) - (ZDooM 2.5.0, OpenGL required)

Screenshots:



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Limiting the project to ZDoom just to force pistol start? That's just stupid, almost all community efforts out there are based on the premise that all maps are designed to be played from pistol start, yet they don't force you to. Not to mention that you can just IDCLEV to the map to get a clean pistol start. Besides, isn't ZDoom and its derivatives the only ports that don't start you from a pistol start if you die, and instead they'll just load an autosave from when you entered the map? I'm sure you'll just piss off all those ZDoom kids who throw a fit when vanilla and Boom wads disable jumping and crouching through MAPINFO if you do this.

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Jodwin said:

Limiting the project to ZDoom just to force pistol start? That's just stupid, almost all community efforts out there are based on the premise that all maps are designed to be played from pistol start, yet they don't force you to. Not to mention that you can just IDCLEV to the map to get a clean pistol start. Besides, isn't ZDoom and its derivatives the only ports that don't start you from a pistol start if you die, and instead they'll just load an autosave from when you entered the map? I'm sure you'll just piss off all those ZDoom kids who throw a fit when vanilla and Boom wads disable jumping and crouching through MAPINFO if you do this.


All very good and valid points. Though I can't read 'Damage's' mind and certainly am not trying to speak for him, I'm guessing this limitation is an attempt to prod the enlisted mappers in the direction of using a lot of the sourceport's special design features in their maps without actually coming out and saying that the maps are required to utilize said features.

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Whether or whether not you use the features doesn't really bother me, but I do understand your complaint, and they are all valid points.

If you don't want to utilize the mapinfo pistol start then I suppose you don't have to. The project is meant to be run under ZDooM you could make a Boom-compatible map and it would still run just fine.

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Jodwin said:

Besides, isn't ZDoom and its derivatives the only ports that don't start you from a pistol start if you die, and instead they'll just load an autosave from when you entered the map?

It's optional. It's on by default, because it's needed to make hub maps (Hexen, Strife) work at all, but you can turn it off.

Glass Rook said:

All very good and valid points. Though I can't read 'Damage's' mind and certainly am not trying to speak for him, I'm guessing this limitation is an attempt to prod the enlisted mappers in the direction of using a lot of the sourceport's special design features in their maps without actually coming out and saying that the maps are required to utilize said features.

Seems so:

`Damage` said:

Notice: So far this needs the latest ZDooM because it utilizes a new MAPINFO feature that allows for a complete pistol start.

General Guidelines

  • Software renderer compatibility is not an issue. Feel free to use 3d floors and the latest zdoom features, or not, your choice. State whether your map is software friendly when submitting.
  • UDMF map format is preferable.


Wanting to force pistol start is pointless anyway. Those who want to pistol start can do so without port-specific tricks, they already know how. The resethealth and resetinventory keywords are intended for stuff like this where it makes sense.

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I forgot about stating that I wanted the maps in UDMF format...
The reason for that is because I wanted all of the maps to be the same format, and easier to manage.

If it must be so, then I suppose I'll remove the limitation due to MAPINFO.

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Gez said:

Wanting to force pistol start is pointless anyway.

Why? If you don't mind me asking. Some famous wads (e.g. Scythe) have utilised Icon of Sin barrel suicides to force players to restart from a pistol start every few levels. Was this pointless? If you're going to balance every level around a pistol start is enforcing that a bad idea?

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Which was why I wanted to force it, because there's always people who will play through ignoring pistol start and messing up balance. But if it's such a huge limitation on mapping, well, then it can be ignored.

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Could the desired effect be accomplished through a DehackEd patch, thus keeping it from being so port-specific and yet achieving the ultimate goal?

Asking cuz I don't know...

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Melon said:

Why? If you don't mind me asking. Some famous wads (e.g. Scythe) have utilised Icon of Sin barrel suicides to force players to restart from a pistol start every few levels. Was this pointless?

Pointless and dumb.

Melon said:

If you're going to balance every level around a pistol start is enforcing that a bad idea?

If you can't make a level that's balanced for both pistol start and continuous play, you should practice balancing your level more rather than devise tricks and hacks like this. It's just lazy design. If you make 30 levels that are not supposed to be played in sequence ever, and it is important that the player always start from scratch for every single one... Have you considered releasing them as 30 independent MAP01 mods? Rather than as a single MAP01-to-MAP30 megawad? It'd make more sense this way, wouldn't it?

Glass Rook said:

Could the desired effect be accomplished through a DehackEd patch, thus keeping it from being so port-specific and yet achieving the ultimate goal?

Asking cuz I don't know...


No. There is no way a dehacked patch could strip a player's weapons, ammunitions, armor, health etc. and reset all to default values.

The non-port specific way is to bundle the levels as a collection of discrete, separate files, like the Master Levels. Make them all MAP01 just to be sure.

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And that's why I'm not really worried about forcing pistol start anymore, but submissions should at least be made with pistol start in mind.

Now that this issue is put behind and over with, is anyone actually interested in this project? Did I set the bar too high, or is it just not a good concept?

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I still think it sounds like a fun project and would participate, but your criteria of no first-time mappers will exclude a lot of people who might be interested, assuming that by first maps you mean first submission to the archives as opposed to people who have practiced drawing up perhaps dozens of maps but never submitted anything. Conversely (and this is my opinion based on what I've observed and not a criticism), I think a lot of the more experienced mappers here will not be interested because the theme is revamping existing id levels, even though the fusion idea is one I haven't heard before. I hope I'm wrong though, because this sounds like the kind of megawad I'd like to play.

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Eh, I'll give it some more time if no people bite I'll loosen the restrictions I guess. Or just release my submission as a standalone map and abandon the idea.

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`Damage` said:

Eh, I'll give it some more time if no people bite I'll loosen the restrictions I guess. Or just release my submission as a standalone map and abandon the idea.


It would be a shame to let this idea fall away. Looking at the maps, they look pretty good to me. Seriously, I would still do this, but dump all the additional extras and ZDoom features. I like ZDoom a lot, but those features simply don't seem necessary for this particular idea.

You could make it totally traditional Doom2, and not lose anything from the project, and you will not be losing the large number of Doomers who like their Doom 'classic' without all the extras.

It is a really good idea for a project and would be a shame to dump it.

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I dumped the whole "Needz latest ZDooM" stuff in the first post :P

All extra stuff is pretty much optional, really. If you made a Boom-Compatible (Or any limit-removing source port, but I think for the sake of consistency it should be just Boom-Compatible) map using ONLY stock resources it would have just as good a chance of being used as a GZDoom map with tons of new features.

In the end I'll have a way of separating maps of different compatibility in a way that someone could load this up and play it with Boom, even if some ZDooM maps were included.

So all that's left is some maps. No ZDooM specific stuff required. At all.

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The reason I wanted to exclude first-time mappers is because I didn't really feel like turning this into a "here's how you can improve your first map" type thread. If you have experience with DooM Builder/other map editor and can understand the basic rules of what makes a decent DooM map, but haven't actually ever released a map, then that's fine.

It's not about how many maps you've released, it's about if you know how to actually make one.

I'm sure there's plenty of people here who've opened up DooM Builder and tried their hand at mapping before.

Simply put, if it's a good map then it doesn't matter how many you've made/released, but I'm not gonna point you in the direction of some detail guide. :|

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`Damage` said:

The reason I wanted to exclude first-time mappers is because I didn't really feel like turning this into a "here's how you can improve your first map" type thread.

I can understand where you're coming from, but at the same time this is a pretty annoying attitude. Speaking from personal experience, working on a community project with plenty of different people who are eager to give good criticism on each others' maps, be they good or bad, is a great learning experience. And, of course, it'll result in a much better product once it's released compared to hoping that everyone knows how to make a good map and then putting the maps together (AND hoping that the people putting the maps together know what's really good).

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That's true, and newer mappers can gain much needed experience too.

As long as the map wasn't thrown together in 10 minutes it should be pretty acceptable. I'll revise the restrictions to something that asks for effort, in that case.

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The reason I keep bringing up the experience issue is just due to the nature of the project itself. Some mappers may not be good at drawing levels from scratch, but might be able to produce some excellent results when it comes to taking two pre-existing maps and merging/altering them. Perhaps they could submit to you examples of their work privately and you could then determine if their style is what you're looking for.

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Well the restrictions are pretty flexible now that I've revised them multiple times, so now I guess I'll have to see if it makes a difference.

And yes, I can see how it might be easier to emulate two maps, but it's not just stringing together pieces of the maps though, so it's not as easy as one would think...

I had to be a bit creative when I combined Underhalls with command Control, recreating certain rooms that had similar architecture between the maps. It's not rocket science but it isn't as simple as copying exactly what one would see in an editor. Just thought I'd clarify.

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And I totally get that; I didn't mean to make it sound as if all one needs to do is copy and paste two maps. But some children are good at drawing their own pictures while others are better at coloring in the pictures others have drawn. Our animation industry is a fine example of this. Matt Groening draws half a dozen pictures of The Simpsons characters, then they're sent to Thailand where somebody else draws all the other illustrations necessary to make up the frame-by-frame movements. Not quite the same thing I know, but you get what I'm saying surely. While some mappers may not have the vision necessary to draw a Master Levels quality map from scratch, they may indeed have the creativity necessary to take two maps that they're going to merge and know what would make sense to do with them and how to make creative or even innovative additions.

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And if that can be delivered then that's all I ask for.

So now I am led to believe the restrictions are loose enough to accommodate newer mappers, and the concept could still be built upon enough for a more experienced mapper to consider a challenge, and if fusing two maps just seems too easy and boring, you could always try more. I don't think I could manage fusing more than just two maps together in a good fashion though, before it started to look a bit thrown together, but, I'm merely try to appeal to those who may think this is too easy to bother submitting to, or considering.

EDIT:

Some progress on a planned submission, just to show that there is in fact progress going on. It's a Heretic map fusion of E1M1 and E2M7.

http://blazingphoenix.sepwich.com/Screenshot_Doom_20100921_202121.png

EDIT2: I didn't state that Heretic does count as a classic iwad in the first post. Rather unorthodox, maybe, but technically it's a "classic" iwad, and is pretty vanilla as far as I know, compared to Hexen and Strife. With that in mind you could in theory consider fusing DooM and Heretic maps together as well, or like the above example Heretic on Heretic. But as I implied above, beyond heretic is kind of out of bounds.

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Okay, now this brings up another interesting question...

If merging a Heretic map with a Doom2 map, do you want to re-texture all the Heretic parts with Doom2 textures, or do you want the finished megawad to be loaded with a lot of imported textures, sprites and so on?

Also, Heretic has some properties and effects that don't exist in Doom2 (like ice, water currents, flying, and so on for example) so what is allowed in that regard?

Still a cool concept though, especially since I've been playing Heretic for the first time lately and actually had that idea in the back of my mind!

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Custom textures are allowed so the heretic parts CAN have Heretic textures, but I'm mixing the Baker's Legacy textures along with the Heretic textures to make it feel more... New.

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Also, Heretic has some properties and effects that don't exist in Doom2 (like ice, water currents, flying, and so on for example) so what is allowed in that regard?


Well, since the Doom 2 iwad is the primary iwad that this project is gonna be released for in the end, I'd have to say it depends what port you're aiming for. Dunno if those examples you listed are Boom-compatible (as in, doesn't need ZDoom), but if they're not, then I would just make the map for ZDoom.

Those effects aren't necessary just because the map is Heretic themed.

If I made a Duke 3d themed map (not for this) that doesn't necessarily mean it had to have all the features that Duke 3d has in it just because it's themed after Duke 3d.

The same concept applies here, it's just Heretic themed, the amount of features you can include in the map is up to the mapper.

Note: When this gets released, chances are it will be broken up into a couple different files. Depending on how many non-Zdoom entries I get I may just include those maps in a separate .wad file from the .pk3 that will probably have whatever (G)ZDoom maps I'd get. So as long as the map is Boom-compatible AT LEAST, then there's no issue with features, the maps will be separated accordingly.

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-Wonders if someone will make a mt.erebus + the citadel fusion- that would be...big.

Anyway its an interesting project, wonder what people will come up with.

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I would like to do a fusion of Heretic e1m4 "The Guard Tower" and Doom e3m7 "Limbo". It would be a hell-themed map with the tentative title "Limbo Tower".

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