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Sonikku7

My first noob map.

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Hi, I just released my first map a couple days ago.

http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/helcv.zip

It is a large hellish cave that takes about 90 minutes to complete. In all honesty, the map isn't too impressive. Actually, it is kind of bland compared to what we have today, but detail wasn't my main concern. The fights are what make this map, and there is plenty of combat to be had. With over 2k monsters, you will be pretty busy if you decide to complete this map. I recommend you use a limit removing port to play, anything ZDoom based would be my choice.

But yeah, I'm prepared for a whole line of comments saying how bad this sucks, blah blah blah. Just tell me what you think and be honest. ;)


I'll get a screenshot or two once I get back from class.

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Tried your map and quit after one minute. There is simply no way I'm going to spend the time to fight a bunch of cacos and hellknights in bland architecture with nothing but a shotgun. It might get better after that, but I firmly believe a map should be fun as soon as you load it up, so I didn't try to progress further (another concern was that I played it in GlBoom+ with the HUD and saw 2000+ monsters. Such a tedious/slow start for a 2000 monsters map does not bode well, it would make repeated attempts extremely annoying and encourages to play slowly in a what is to me boring way).

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yea i played through it a bit but having just a shotgun to take on hellknights and cacos in boxy hallways is pretty bland. and then came the barons, and that was enough for me. i cheated my way through it a bit more just to see what there is to see. it's too much of a slaughtermap for me, which i don't like personally, but others may. but you need a chaingun early for this level IMO. I do like that a lot of the map layout isn't 90 degree angles though :)

NT

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Yeah, it is pretty much a slaughter map. My favorite wad is drown in blood and I like playing it with default weapons, so I'm used to using low powered weps on high powered monsters. The pace picks up once you get the plasma rifle and then very soon the rocket launcher.

Oh btw, don't fight the first two hell knights you see. Just run. Same goes for the first set of barons. (But the barons are very easy to kill anyways)

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2 things would save this map, or at least the first 5 minutes - start with an ssg and chaingun, and get rid of every fucking thing you can get stuck on. Seriously, those hanging guys in the baron room? stuck on, got hit. Those torches and twitchy humans in the room with the first revenants? got stuck on, died. Those are details to accentuate the look of a map, do not use them in areas the player WILL get stuck on them unless you want to be a douche. And most of the better maps rarely use them at all, preferring to use pure architecture and the bodies of dead demons to decorate it. Also, be aware of what things are blocking and which aren't - you won't notice the hanging bodies in the baron room in zdoom unless you have infinitely tall actors on or jump at one, but you will when you're using pr/boom. Otherwise, with some variety in fights and some more firepower to keep things interesting, this could've turned out decently well, especially for a first map.

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Here are the screen shots:
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd164/ShadowX39X/Screenshot_Doom_20100923_215002.png

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd164/ShadowX39X/Screenshot_Doom_20100923_215335.png

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd164/ShadowX39X/Screenshot_Doom_20100923_215349.png

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd164/ShadowX39X/Screenshot_Doom_20100923_215433.png

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd164/ShadowX39X/Screenshot_Doom_20100923_215657.png

and get rid of every fucking thing you can get stuck on. Seriously, those hanging guys in the baron room? stuck on, got hit. Those torches and twitchy humans in the room with the first revenants? got stuck on, died. Those are details to accentuate the look of a map, do not use them in areas the player WILL get stuck on them unless you want to be a douche.


Yeah, I'm a Z/GZDoom guy. I don't like infinite actor heights at all, and I never play with that feature/bug on. Actually, I totally forgot that infinite actor heights even existed until I played with Eternity and noticed that I was getting stuck on random things on IWAD maps. I dislike prboom/glboom so I never bothered to test my map in that port.

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I used prboom because I like recording fdas, and zdoom has serious annoyances with compatibility in demos. But beyond the baron room hanging guys, the bit where you first fight revs has crap all along the walls you can run into. This wouldn't be a big problem as there's still room to maneuver, but you put ammo/health right next to the things on the very end, so once I shot and ran through an imp to get to it, I got stuck and a rev missile caught me from behind. So bottom line, be careful where you put things that block the player, usually in alcoves or on platforms the player doesn't need to get on is a good idea. And don't put items the player wants in between blocking things.

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I didn't think you could get stuck on floor decorations just by trying to run along them. I know I don't have that problem in ZDoom. I guess next time I will try to prop floor decorations a bit higher up from the ground so that they won't block non ZDoom players.

Also, has anyone tried to finish the map? I saw someone write a butt hurt review on idgames already, which was pretty funny imo. I made the last two fights pretty intense. I'm just curious to hear the opinion of someone who has played this entirely.

I know that the first couple parts of the map aren't very good. I made them when I barely understood Doom Builder 2. Other than the tutorials on the Doom Builder 2 website, I never made any test maps before I tried to make this, so this entire map was pretty much a learning experience for me.

Oh btw marnetmar, you should try to finish that wad of yours. I liked what I saw, even though tech bases aren't really my forte.

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It's purpose is good but it misses variety i got tired of shooting and dodging cacos and whatever... You should make smaller more concentrated maps

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Well, in my honest opinion, this feels like a Sunder ripoff, except for the fact that that was actually completable, and with architecture and gameplay that was great.

This slaughter map is...poorly made. If I think that running around 5 hellknights with an SSG, I surely wouldn't want to run around 8 cacodemons with a shotgun. Try again.

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Unless your wad is utilizing the zdoom engine to accomplish things not possible in otherwise, you should accommodate close-to-vanilla behavior. Obviously limits have been basically removed even by purist ports, but anyway I play with infinite actors using ZDoom and I think it's arrogant to say "I don't like other ports so I don't care"

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Phml said:

Tried your map and quit after one minute. There is simply no way I'm going to spend the time to fight a bunch of cacos and hellknights in bland architecture with nothing but a shotgun.

Agreed except that I can't see what bland architecture has to do with it, tedious gameplay is tedious gameplay no matter how pretty a map is. But yeah. I loaded a dehacked patch that sped up the weapons a bit :)

TimeOfDeath said:

Yo AB, I *think* pb+ has an option to make ceiling decorations non-blocking? :)

Yeah but he said FDAs and it doesn't work in demos ;)

magicsofa said:

Unless your wad is utilizing the zdoom engine to accomplish things not possible in otherwise, you should accommodate close-to-vanilla behavior. Obviously limits have been basically removed even by purist ports, but anyway I play with infinite actors using ZDoom and I think it's arrogant to say "I don't like other ports so I don't care"

I used to think this but then I thought, it's also arrogant to expect other people to work to your standards (or anyone else's but their own) unless you're paying them or something. So using whatever is fair enough as long as it is made clear how the map is intended to be run in the text file, with the implication that you can run the map however you like but don't go crying to the author if something breaks. Of course in this case we can happily go complain to the author because the daft sod only went and put "limit removing" in his text file, but nevertheless.

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RjY said:

I used to think this but then I thought, it's also arrogant to expect other people to work to your standards (or anyone else's but their own) unless you're paying them or something. So using whatever is fair enough as long as it is made clear how the map is intended to be run in the text file, with the implication that you can run the map however you like but don't go crying to the author if something breaks. Of course in this case we can happily go complain to the author because the daft sod only went and put "limit removing" in his text file, but nevertheless.


If one posts a thread about their new map that people can respond to, that individual is directly implying that he/she wants feedback. Feedback is delivered. We want limit removing wads to be able to played in a fashion that is friendly to as many ports as possible. You are more than welcome to disregard any criticism you receive and continue mapping anyway but that would make you just as cool as Chris Wright.

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I'm going to only make ZDoom compatible maps from now on... so yeah.

Well, in my honest opinion, this feels like a Sunder ripoff, except for the fact that that was actually completable, and with architecture and gameplay that was great.


Not even close considering I've never played much sunder at all. Also my pos map is completable. It is very easy once you figure out what to do. To some extent, it is even beatable on NM, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to try.

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Agreed except that I can't see what bland architecture has to do with it, tedious gameplay is tedious gameplay no matter how pretty a map is.


I originally couldn't see what my complaint about bland architecture might have to do with how pretty a map can be, then I realised my poor english skills failed me again and "bland" might not be the exact word I wanted to go for. Indeed, aesthetics have little to do with it, and my intent was to say the architecture here is too basic and (the "and" is important here) makes for weak, one-sided gameplay.

So using whatever is fair enough as long as it is made clear how the map is intended to be run in the text file,


That's the thing : text file said nothing but "limit removing", yet it is arguably broken in correct limit removing ports. No mention of being tested for ZDoom or intended for ZDoom whatsoever.

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Sonikku7 said:

(...)takes about 90 minutes to complete.

I don't want to be proud but I've done 3x100% in 89:37 :D
Otherwise, architecture sucks as you've mentioned, but most of the fights (except the one in the last room!) were so pretty that I've quite enjoyed playing. Deserves 3 out of 5.

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