What does Doom 3 need to be more fun to play?

[printz]

I'm thinking about making a Doom 3 mod. But before I start making maps for it, I'm modifying the class definitions around to tweak the game into being more like a true Doom game, less like a chore. I'm curious what features do you think should be improved on Doom 3 to make the new maps more dynamic. Here's what I tweaked so far:

Player
I made him walk and run faster, like the Quake dude, but lowered his stamina (he's practically sprinting, he has to get tired faster now), so one has to be careful. His original speed was pathetic. Realism isn't fun when you're in a fictional Mars base in the future and biblical monsters are killing your friends.

Weapons
- Chainsaw: I saw some posts complaining it's too powerful (that you could virtually charge with the saw and kill everything). I lowered its damage from 50 to about 35, but didn't test it.
- Pistol: it's no longer totally accurate. It was dumb that a handgun was totally accurate. Now it's fairly accurate, but you can miss lost soul heads!
- Shotgun: biggest change here. Halved its spread from 22 (!) to 11 degrees (so it's like the Doom 2 SSG not like the Doom 1 monsters) but also had to lower the count of its pellets so it isn't a be-all end-all solution. Currently it has to kill babies in two mid-range shots, so it's frustrating, I yet have to improve it.
- Machinegun: made it a bit less accurate (not much), and increased its damage to multiplayer level (9->12), so it better fits the faster pace of the edited game.
- Chaingun: kept the Doom 1 shotgun-like accuracy (5 degrees) but increased its damage to multiplayer level (20->25).
- Plasma gun: increased its damage from 16->20
- Soulcube/Artifact/Grabber: not sure if they'll appear. They're too powerful for their own good, and can break the game.
- PDA: Don't count on me recording voices, but I hope it will be more interesting than in the original game. Hopefully I figure out how to implement an automap... but needs research in my part.

Monsters
These didn't escape either. Generally, I made the demons all burn away after a delayed time not immediately. It sure is better this way, because hearing all those crisping noises can be unnerving. Maybe randomly make them get back on feet or spawn forgotten ones from their corpses too... Adding to the weird factor: they never gib, no matter how much force. Instead, they jump around whenever someone teleports in, which is nice. Id missed this effect.
- Zombie and commando shooters: I increased their bullet speed back to 7200 from measly 2000 (they were slowed down so you could see their tracers, which was gay). Zombie Shotgunners in particular were a pain in the ass for their unexplainably small spread. I raised it from 5 to 10 degrees, but added more pellets to their shots.
- Arch vile: it was pathetic with only 425 health, so I raised it to 600. Also, raised the firewall damage to 40. Still, it needs a newer model, because the imp-like aspect doesn't do it justice.
- Cacodemon: doubled its health to 400 (as it should be) and increased the damage so they're more threatening than imps.
- Revenant: raised its health back to 300, and slightly increased the firepower (though I shouldn't really have, they're tough enough already!). I also need to remove the stupid missile time limit after which they dissipate (easily seen when dodging them for awhile).
- Wraith: this creep seriously needs revamping. First, its teleport looks lame and isn't really teleport (it's solid while invisible!). Second, its tactic is ridiculously ineffective. I can kill it safely using my fists, because it waits so long to raise its claw! I could first apply it the "shadow wraith" mod from the Internet, but I'll also have to see what to do with its behavior...
- Cyberdemon: the monster should really fire rockets like player's, not the original Doom 3 sacrilege of firing weaker ones! I edited that. Also make it damageable. I think he needs a companion too, he's alone as a superboss. Maybe visit RoE and turn Maledict and his three kids into regular appearances. Yeah....

I haven't touched Resurrection of Evil; maybe I should, it's more trendy that way. Generally I find the bestiary short, I should be looking on the net for custom monsters (like the shambler, baron of hell, pain elemental, arachnotron IF PUBLIC...)

What else am I missing? Does Doom 3 engine in fact have any imposed limit on entity count, either on screen or in the level? Can I make overpopulated slaughter maps with Doom 3?

[Xeros612]

One other thing could be some bigger, outdoor areas instead of just corridors, but I'm not entirely sure if ID Tech IV can do such things all that well.

[printz]

Xeros612 said:

One other thing could be some bigger, outdoor areas instead of just corridors, but I'm not entirely sure if ID Tech IV can do such things all that well.

I've seen large areas like Dead Simple, the tower of Babel, or plain newbish huge areas (dwarfing Cyberdemons) in Doom 3 mods. Some custom episodes (like In Hell) tend to have huge corridors where distant hell-knights are confused with imps.

[Xeros612]

Ah, I was under the impression that ID Tech IV wasn't well suited for large areas. I guess that wasn't entirely true.

[printz]

Xeros612 said:

Ah, I was under the impression that ID Tech IV wasn't well suited for large areas. I guess that wasn't entirely true.

Maybe it wasn't at the time of conception, but eventually it became old enough to be fast enough.

[PRIMEVAL]

A good soundtrack, mayhaps? Also, would be cool to see a Shambler and other Quake monsters. Actually, I've always wanted to see Quake monsters fight with Doom monsters.

[Clonehunter]

Yes to above post....

And also, see if you can do anything about co-op (I don't care how much coding it takes! Do it!)

Other than that, nice to see someone considering a D3 mod. :)

[Coopersville]

More metal, more monsters, and a Doomguy that runs at 32MPH.

That's about it.

[printz]

Coopersville said:

More metal,

You mean by music? Well, maybe when I'm far there I can try composing a MIDI using the right sound font (if it's possible) and transform it into an OGG or MP3. Unfortunately in my opinion heavy metal background music for 3d shooters is a bit clichéd if it sounds like Quake 2's thrash.

Metal as textures is plentiful in that game :P. I noticed (while playing) that there are Doom 3 equivalents of COMP* Doom 1 textures! They look more metallic than Doom 1's plastic though.

[Xeros612]

If the Doom wiki's right, Doom 3 actually does feature the Doom 1/2 computer screens occasionally as an easter egg(if I'm equating COMP textures and computer screen correctly).

As for the music, I haven't played more than a bit of the demo for Quake II, so I haven't gotten much of a feeling for cliche on it, but it would work pretty well for a fun mod.

[PRIMEVAL]

printz said:

You mean by music? Well, maybe when I'm far there I can try composing a MIDI using the right sound font (if it's possible) and transform it into an OGG or MP3. Unfortunately in my opinion heavy metal background music for 3d shooters is a bit clichéd if it sounds like Quake 2's thrash.

Metal as textures is plentiful in that game :P. I noticed (while playing) that there are Doom 3 equivalents of COMP* Doom 1 textures! They look more metallic than Doom 1's plastic though.

I can make the Metal music in OGG/MP3 format if need be ;-)

[printz]

A potential problem is that it's very difficult for me to imagine a Doom 3 scenario that isn't downright depressing. Absolutely all id and custom maps that I've played for Doom 3 had a hopeless atmosphere like the sky going to fall on me. Either they were blacked out Martian bases, or tattered realms engulfed in smoke. Even if I design something bright like Thy Flesh Consumed E3M3 or calm like Hexen 2, the screaming imps and rattling commandos will quickly remind me how the mood is supposed to be. Anyway, as much as it can be inconvenient, isn't this the whole fucking point of something called Doom? They'd better make the meaning of the word clear* :P. I guess music helps lightening it so the marine doesn't kill himself though :)

*I guess that avoiding this very thing, literal usage of the namesake's notion, is what made Doom 1 and 2 so great games. Even if they're called Doom, they didn't have to include morose levels all over. Notice how PSX Doom and Doom 64 went for a generalized doomed feeling by using that music anyway...

[Phml]

Setting the default walkspeed to be about 20% better than the default sprint speed was enough to make the game fun for me.

[PRIMEVAL]

Maybe some levels faster-paced Metal, others slower, more Doom Metal, and some other atmospheric styles for the other maps?

[Alfonzo]

printz said:

A potential problem is that it's very difficult for me to imagine a Doom 3 scenario that isn't downright depressing. Absolutely all id and custom maps that I've played for Doom 3 had a hopeless atmosphere like the sky going to fall on me. Either they were blacked out Martian bases, or tattered realms engulfed in smoke. Even if I design something bright like Thy Flesh Consumed E3M3 or calm like Hexen 2, the screaming imps and rattling commandos will quickly remind me how the mood is supposed to be.

There. You just summed up perfectly my lasting impressions of Doom 3. Even if the monsters are standing outside in an open, more natural sort of environment (say, a pine forest), the way the light falls on them; the movements of the player and the dynamics of pretty much everything on screen tether the entire experience to that of a corridor shooter no matter what you try to do to it. ...I can almost see the swinging light above the imp's head now... It screeches. It lunges. I strafe to the side and fire a shell at it. It dies.

I cry.

The solution? Everything must be faster. Speed up everything! Seriously, the entire game is like wading through a mist-shrouded sludge field. Strenuous. Tiresome. Futile.

[audiodef]

Lovely. I look forward to seeing this mod if you do it!

[printz]

I'd love to be able to use Quake 3 Arena music! :( Too bad it's copyrighted, and the watchdogs would surely be much more watchful to a post-2000 game mod than to a classic Doom one. TBH I always saw Doom 3 as a single-player successor to Quake 3 Arena.

[Technician]

Fuck off with all the metal nonsense. Te whole point behind Doom 3 was using it's environment as it's score. The surround capabilities were ahead of it's time. If you take the doomed, depressing, chilling atmosphere away, you get an even more flawed game.

[printz]

Technician said:

The surround capabilities were ahead of it's time.

You mean having more than two speakers? Then that's something I should also be aware of, then. I've never used more than two speakers at the computer. Guess it's time to test it on my Dolby some time, if I make it work.

EDIT: I'd rather combine music AND noises, so both sides are happy.

[PRIMEVAL]

Can always use atmospheric ambiance for most gameplay, then use something with a little more energy during certain battles.