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purist

Progressive Fiction (Hadephobia now on /idgames)

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Vaporizer, I've had a quick play of your MAP06 and without meaning to sound unkind there are major changes needed to it before I can add it to the megawad. Back when you uploaded your first draft I said that there is still a lot of work needed to it. I was thinking then you had uploaded a rough early version but other than thing placement it doesn't appear to have been changed a great deal. The major issues that came immediately to mind where:

1. The beginning. According to your story you have been shipwrecked and escaped in a (wooden??) lifeboat. So why is the water completely surrounded by high mountains? It's also weird that you can run right around there. I think you should have done something similar to the start of my MAP04.

2. The fishing village. Where is it? I was bemused when you mentioned in the story but why do so if you don't intend to represent it in the map? What or where is your map anyway? I don't get any sense of place or any link with any of the maps before it.

3. Thing placement. This needs a complete overhaul. I thought Cell was brutal but for MAP06 this is ridiculous. I can't imagine a fun way of beating this map on UV. You shouldn't make a map that you yourself can't beat in UV with no secrets because if you can't finish it you can't be sure it will be fun to play all the way through.

4. Visual glitches. Cell has already mentioned these. The paper thin wall, the HOM. Most rooms are large bare spaces with seemingly randomly placed monsters or have wierd abstract structures like in the archvile room.

I know you're busy on MAP08. Just concentrate on working on that for now and we'll come back to MAP06. My advice is to start small. Large architecture with epic battles and open spaces is hard to get right, especially with only a week to work on it.

I hope you don't think I'm being unfair. I still wish you would have gone ahead and done the ship map - I think the limited space may have curbed your insticts for empty spaces and monster hordes!

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@vaporizer:

Whats wrong with drawing a huge sector? It would make it look better than it does with mountains surrounding it.

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Same here. I was willing to make that "huge ass" sector to make the edge of the hangerfields invisible, even if then it sucked because of the thing Katamori mentioned a la horizon. Anyway, what height does the blue lift sector have? Because you should lower it down to the height of the floor of the gate. Maybe it doesn't cause glitches.

I've seen your method with the two teleports, but... separate them. In 99.9% of this usage, the "two 64x64 sectors" are actually a 64x128 sector and represent the same teleporter. Either this or making their signals different (it needs a separating linedef) and/or putting bright light blink effects onto them would have made players understand the concept itself...

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Vaporizer said:

1. Any ideas on this? Also wooden lifeboat because wooden lifeboat. ZDoom has an easy horizon effect special, but in Boom I would have to draw an huge ass sector.

2. ...Ancient chinese secret!

3. Yeah. I'll tone difficulty down and improve some places and populate empty areas. I rushed monster placement towards the end, which you can easily see in the huge cave area. I first planned to make it completely empty, and then monsters start to teleport there. In the archvile room, I first thought about making some kind of dummy sector with a conveyor belt, where a monster is first crushed, then the conveyor belt takes the monster to a teleporter which teleports the corpse to the archvile room.

4. I have no idea what is causing the paper thin wall and HOM.

I don't think you're being unfair, ass kissing is not a good way to give constructive criticism. I'll make the mines less big and open.

I'll get MAP08 done first though. BTW, the christmas holidays have started! (for me, atleast.)


1. A similar effect can be produced in vanilla. Sections in MAP04 and MAP07 reproduce the effect. You need to prevent the player from reaching the edge though. I would recommend moving the lifeboat so it is up alongside the steps, putting player block lines around the lifeboat and a rail around the dock and land's edge to prevent the player being able to access the water. You'd have to move or remove the secret in the water and do something about the cliff-edge. If I get chance I might help you with this.

2. That's not within the spirit of the project. This is supposed to be a megawad of interconnected levels plus a story that progresses and makes sense with the maps. You'll need to either change the story (and not in a hacky way) or the map.

3. When you say populate I hope you mean with architecture not more monsters. In that respect your map is over-populated already. I'm glad you didn't bother with the conveyor belt idea. If a crushed monster is resurrected by an archvile it causes a bug where said resurrected monster cannot be killed. I expect that would frustrate more players than it would impress.

4. Again, at some point I'll try to help you with this.

I'm glad you've taken my critism as it was intended. Community projects are meant to be somewhere we can all get constructive critism to improve our maps and ability as a mapper. As I mentioned before I'll help out however I can but I will have to leave the majority of it to you as I will obviously have my hands full with my own map next week. On this subject can you give me an idea of where you are finishing your map so I can start plotting the theme of mine? I understand if you've not decided yet but let me know when you have...

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purist said:

You'd have to move or remove the secret in the water and do something about the cliff-edge.

That secret contains half of the ammunition and health in the entire map. How about spreading 'em all over? A "full update secret" has never been a good idea and I never approved with it since I had started my "mapping career" off in July, 2009.

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I agree that secrets should not be too overpowered or should be required to complete the level. Incidently I thought your secrets on MAP07 where overpowered (soulsphere, megasphere, plasma rifle, BFG). But now it's balanced so that it can still be completed without finding any of them. I have fixed the issue with the sergeants and chaingunners overlapping.

I had a bit of time so I did some work on MAP06. I've added a horizon (doesn't look quite right, but it's better than rocks. I'll keep working on it). I've moved the life boat to the steps and added fencing and rocks to block the player from getting in the water.

Next time I have an hour or so I will fix a few aesthetic things in the beginning outside area and play about with the thing placement. I think the gameplay in the outside area would be drastically improved if the pain elementals were removed for a start.

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When you're ready to work on it again (some point after this week I expect?) let me know and I'll upload your .wad with my changes so you've got a head start.

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purist said:

Incidently I thought your secrets on MAP07 where overpowered (soulsphere, megasphere, plasma rifle, BFG).

At least the backpack and the berserk weren't hidden.

I would be grateful if I heard about Magicsofa. In fact, today is part of the winter holiday mentioned. Hope he had some free time between two testpapers, so he doesn't continue his map NOW where it was stopped since the first and also last upload.

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A.Gamma, I've added you onto the list:

MAP23 (18 APR 11 - 24 APR 11): Olympus. Map Name TBC.
MAP24 (25 APR 11 - 01 MAY 11): A.Gamma. Map Name TBC.
MAP25 (02 MAY 11 - 08 MAY 11): YOU?!? Next available slot...

I've already agreed that Cell can have MAP26 and I'm going to have MAP29 so in effect there are only 4 maps left up for grabs. It will feel wierd when the full roster is complete!

Vaporizer, I'm sure you're up to speed with the story and other maps made so far. Please also read the story I posted a couple of pages back for reference in your MAP08 if you haven't already. In short, the miners were led into a trap by the Spidermastermind who was trapped down there with a faction of Hell. Your level is in the mine. You should either end leading to the zone where the Mastermind was freed from or it should be included in your level itself. If you decide to include it in your level you could end your level with a way out (obviously different to the way in).

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Thanks purist. I suppose 5 maps are fine in this case.
So, the concept says that Spidermasterminds must make their first appearance between MAP08 and MAP10, am I right?

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Does it continue from Cell's map? You should use those tracks he had near the end of MAP07 in your mine. They looked cool.

Well in my story the Spidermastermind lured the UAC into the caverns and the miners inadvertedly freed it so it should be somewhere in the underground. If Vaporizer isn't putting it in his map I'll probably either put it in MAP09 or set it up for A.Gamma in MAP10. It would be neat if MAP11 ended at a convenient spot for the intermissions and killing the Mastermind would suit it but the first episode didn't work out that way so never mind.

Vaporizer, so have you decided where your map ends yet? I'd like to get started sketching some ideas of layouts but I'm going to be away from a PC from Christmas Eve until after Boxing Day so I won't get your updates during this time...

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Just a heads up, If the first mastermind doesn't appear in 8-10, I will almost certainly have it close out the first episode in chapter 11.

EDIT: In other words what purist just said *sigh* learn 2 read posts.

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I can hold off putting it in MAP09 depending on where Vaporizer finishes MAP08 but I'm not sure where else I could finish my map other than the origin of the invasion so unless I get inspired the Mastermind will probably appear before your map.

I was thinking your map could maybe end at the entrance of a portal. As in where the Mastermind came from. The new episode would then take place on the other side of the portal. Maybe this is Hell, another realm or it could be anywhere within the limits of your imagination really...

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I wouldn't say it must be Hell itself - it seems to be quite cheesy to hellify so early... But anything that depends on Killer Ninja himself. He's the one who starts the second episode off.

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I refer to it as the third episode as it seems cleaner to split the Doom 2 'episodes' by the text screens.

Anyway, it will be TheMionicDonut who decides as his is the last map of the 'second' episode. Unless the portal (assuming he takes this idea) doesn't show a destination but I prefer it when the end of the level doesn't leave it open to interpretation.

There are options other than Hell - the Spider Mastermind could have warped from anywhere. My favourite theory is it escaped a laboratory where it's psychic abilities where being studied. Episode three would then be tech maps :-)

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You can have 27. I'll add it to the list when MAP25 is taken. Only three slots free now (25, 28, 30)...

I was just checking about continuing from Cell. I was worried you didn't quite get the idea of the project...

Still no thoughts on where you're finishing your level / I'm starting mine? From this afternoon until the 27th I most likely won't have access to a PC.

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As I see this, now, only #25 is free then! C'mon guys, make your bids fast, because purist won't be here for 3 loooooooooong days!!!

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I think it's a really creative level :) I found some little texture mistakes, but it's not a big problem. Good work, I think :)

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Actually, I found the level quite easy, excluding that Baron of Hell after the blue key. BTW, I tried it on Medium. Also, a bit short and... absurd to get back until that TEKBRON1 door you had to make past... the Soulsphere secret is also displayed. You should make the linedef after the second metal track impassable (or even show some grates filling it to give an alibi) and delete some sectors from the beginning, because it's quite... strange. Even UACRebellion, that IS a progressive fiction, too, managed to make continous flow non-backtracking...

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I'm back... I hope everyone had a nice Christmas. So, the last map available is MAP25 - I can't believe we're on the verge of filling the slots with 6 months to spare. I'll resist filling in the mapslot page until MAP25 is taken to keep going the method of allocating in sequence but Cell, Vaporizer, Katamori and I will keep our slots.

@TheMionicDonut: I have no problem with you doing MAP30. If you remember; my plan was to 'audition' this slot - giving it to the person who writes the best ending for the megawad. Technically this means the slot will be free until MAP29 is being made. You have already PM'd me your ending but if you want to change it at any point PM me again. At present yours is the only audition so it's your spot for now :-)

@Vaporizer: I've played MAP08 and I'm impressed. Don't worry about it not being 100% complete. This is the sort of level of completion I'd expect at the end of the week. It's short and sweet but that's part of the charm. It's much, much better than MAP06. I particulary like the room with the mechanism leading to the red key, the lowerable bars and the train cart at the end. Before you work on it tomorrow I will make these (small) points:

1. Please add co-op starts.

2. The PR secret is a bit much. An ammo box, green armour, RL or SSG would do. Your map is already pretty well balanced so anything better makes the remainder of the map a formality.

3. If 5% remains unfinished my guess it is in the grey ashwall areas, which look a little plain and the central podium, which looks OK but could do with posts where the midtextures end.

4. Just a suggestion but how about making the floor around the podium a damaging floor slime flat? It will penalise the player slightly for fleeing from the blue key baron trap.

5. Why is the swich lower the support barrier shootable? I would have thought a normal 'use' switch would make more sense.

6. I agree with Cell about backtracking. It's not a major issue but I would put some lowered bars nearer to the start point in that corrider.

7. I love the look of the train tracks. Why haven't you used them where the train is - seems the most logical place for them to me.

8. This isn't so much a critism but I was bracing myself for a difficult map after the near impossible MAP06 & MAP07. I don't want to encourage you to spam it with monsters because MAP06 was totally overkill and compared you've done a fine job with this map but I expected a slightly tougher resistance than zombies, imps, demons and one baron. The only areas I had trouble was the chaingunners that teleported after going through the red door and the Baron (both of these become quite straightforward after you know what's coming).

9. You need to title it, write a story text and tell me where you got the music from (I'm not good at Name That Tune). If you want help with the title or story just say - I like doing them :-)

10. I only got faint hints of a mine vibe about the map. It seemed more like a sort of control room with the train cart leading to the actual pit. This is fine, though. I think the destination (MAP09) will be the actual mine. I've not yet decided if I will put the Spiderdemon in my map or write it into the story for MAP10. I can't wait to get started with my map. I'll start sketching layouts tomorrow.

In the meantime here's a little update. The progfic.wad has a small change in MAP07 to fix the stuck sergeant/chaingunners on the ledge, plus I've added graphics for the level names of the completed maps and a DeHacked patch for the automap names and the MAP06-07 intermission text (this needs a bit of alignment work still).

The other file progvap02.wad is Vaporizer's MAP06 with some early changes. Includes co-op starts, an early attempt at a horizon with the lifeboat moved, barriers on the dock and a rocky edge to prevent the player getting into the water from the start. Obviously, there's a lot more to do but when Vaporizer is finished with the last few parts of MAP09 he can use it as a start point. Toying about with it I had a few ideas for moving thing placement about and I don't mind having another crack at it after I've done MAP09.

Here's were you you can find the files:
http://www.hellbent.iwarp.com/box_widget.html

Finally... @magicsofa: Where are you? I hope you've been working on the docks over the Christmas holidays :-)

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Looks good with the far compiled maps altogether. As for the intermission text: I've made the same mistakes before, seeing that the Doom intermissions don't break textlines by themselves... in the first paragraph, the last letter of "leave" is half-sunk into the right border of the screen, and the same happens in the second paragraph to the second line ending with "you" (I mean, there are two lines ending with "you" in the second paragraph and the second of them), however it's not so serious as the "leave" one. Pls. fix it.
I really hope Magicsofa doesn't fool us... his unfinished map would have predicted to be a wonder if it was completed...

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