Cesspool Version 1.1

[Sigvatr]

EDIT: Go to page 2 for Version 1.1

This is a map that is for no particular project. It uses an entirely new set of textures that I have created.

The difficulty is scaled according to my observations of forum members' attitude towards difficulty settings. The three generic difficulty settings range from average difficulty, hell revealed level of difficulty and extremely difficult but not impossible. I recommend you beat the map at least once before trying it on Ultra Violence.

Here's the link -> http://www.braindamage.vg/doom/cesspool.rar (WARNING: OLD VERSION, NEW ONE IN PAGE 2)

Theoretically vanilla compatible.

The new music and sound effects were also made by me.

Enjoy.

EDIT: Given by some recent comments I have made in the forums lately, I am expecting some rather harsh criticism and possibly some trolling. Like I said, I criticise people like I want to be criticised myself, so let loose if you feel so inclined.

[Solarn]

LOL very funny joke.

1.) the sound effects are too loud,

2.) there are no weapons except for what you pick up from shotgun guys and

3.) it's harder than anything I've ever played, including Sunder. Did you test it? If you did, did you beat it?

Were you trying to make some kind of point?

[Xtroose]

I like the fact that you implemented skill levels, because I found it quite enjoyable on HNTR. I think I could finish it on HMP, but it would take some time and practice. I liked the way the map looked and I really like the new textures. However, I do not like the new sound effects - it felt a bit "empty". I hope to see some FDAs by experienced players, it should be an interesting map to speedrun.

[Stupid Bunny]

I enjoyed this on HNTR...it played well, was balanced (a bit easy, but it was HNTR so that makes sense) and looked nice and atmospheric. The sound effects were a bit offensive at first but I got used to them after playing a bit. Nice work.

On HMP, this started to get pretty brutal. The map's biggest weakness, I think, is the abundance of sergeants, which make running around immensely frustrating since there's no way to dodge their attacks even if I'm moving constantly at full speed. Even as I was trying to bring down the revenants and the archvile, I found myself being whittled down rapidly by all the shotgun attacks coming from every direction. Difficult, but not in a good way.

On UV, this map is absolutely ridiculous and I wouldn't expect any human being to be able to beat it without going insane. This is clearly the "joke" Solarn was referring to (suggesting he didn't read your post about difficulty levels) and indeed I was going to say the same thing before I noticed that you had said that. I admire your implementation of difficulty, but keep in mind that some people will want to play on all three and I think the UV setting for this map has far exceeded the bounds of sanity. The current HMP settings might work better here, with perhaps a PI sphere or something to reduce the bite that the sergeants pack.

[40oz]

What's up with Ultra Violence? Did you think at all when you did the thing placement? I mean, why would you completely deplete the player of all resources, leave shotgun shells solely in the hands of shotgun guys, meanwhile imps and demons occupy all the floorspace you have to move around in and block off all the little 64 width hallways in between the rooms? I assumed it was some kinda ChordG inspired speedrun type thing that relied on me getting in and out of everything as fast as possible, but every motion I made towards progress always invited more monsters to fill what fraction of breathing room I had left.

Fortunately, it wasn't until after I died 45 times that I realized this map featured skill levels, of which felt pretty easy compared to UV. The sounds are pretty cool but DSSTNMOV doesn't loop as well as it should. The textures were pretty neat too.

[Sigvatr]

My policy on the Ultra Violence difficulty is to make the map as difficult as possible while still being beatable (by me).

This means that to beat it, you need to:
- Know where everything is
- Practiced it a lot
- Be as reflexive and skilled as I am (no point of comparison, really)

So ultimately, Ultra Violence is for top tier player (not saying I am one, I just designed the map so I have the advantage), demo recorders and speed runners.

I think most Doomers have a tendency to boot up every new wad they play on UV settings. This will bite them in the ass when they play my maps, so read my prefaces very carefully.

[Xtroose]

StupidBunny said:

The sound effects were a bit offensive at first but I got used to them after playing a bit.

This is weird. I did not hear the new sounds at all in Eternity Engine, so I thought he recorded some silence. It was not until you wrote this, that I found it strange. I actually thought Solarn was being sarcastic. Then I tried it in ZDoom and I could hear the sound effects and they were loud as hell.

Is this a bug in EE? Can anybody else reproduce this?

[esselfortium]

I'm going to guess the sounds are in WAV format, and/or are 16-bit, or something else other than Doom's standard sound format.

[Phml]

If you can truly beat this map in UV on a Doom 2 compatible engine you are a top tier player (or a very patient one) and I would love to see a Doom 2 compatible demo.

Unfortunately, from your "theorically vanilla compatible" comment I get this feeling you just tested it in ZDoom with the BLOCKMAP fix and any random number of other enhancements and modifications that advantage the player in some way, which is all information that is missing from your OP, information that is important and relevant if you want to get any kind of useful feedback on a hard map.

[Xtroose]

esselfortium said:

I'm going to guess the sounds are in WAV format, and/or are 16-bit, or something else other than Doom's standard sound format.

And sure enough, they are WAVs. Which is probably why Chocolate Doom can not even run this map.

[Alfonzo]

I have to say I absolutely loved it. The sounds aren't at all offensive in so far as I can tell (though I wasn't playing in eternity), and the limited texture selection works wonders for the tomb like atmosphere (though that may be on account of their also being fresh and impressive looking).

With regards to the difficulty, I think you've implemented the settings rather well. I enjoy being mauled to death over and over so long as I come up trumps in the end! However, keep in mind that realistically the player is only going to be making one of 3 or 4 selections in difficulty (Nightmare! is obviously a no-no, and ITYTD works off the HNTR thing placements), so having such huge leaps in difficulty between settings removes the players ability to select one precisely according to their skill. HNTR is too simple when compared to HMP, and UV is nigh on impossible without rigorous exercise of the map beforehand (although I did manage to get past the first wave of imps, sergeants and demons. I'll have to tackle the rest later!).

If it were at all possible, this is where and why the UDMF format would work wonders.

[Sigvatr]

st.alfonzo said:

If it were at all possible, this is where and why the UDMF format would work wonders.

What's special about UDMF?

[Sigvatr]

Based on feedback I am going to remove the new sound effects.

Is the music ok?

[Alfonzo]

From what I understand, it has the ability to utilize different difficulty settings, amongst other things. Someone else could probably flesh that out a bit more for me, of course, but if I'm right in saying so it would go many lengths toward solving the intricacy issues of Doom's difficulty range, which I always thought was a bit narrow. Your map seems to be a good example of why this sort of thing is needed.

Sigvatr said:

Is the music ok?

Yus. Moody, yet largely unmelodious. The sort of thing that fits the bill with short, punchy maps of this sort (though on the other hand, nothing says action like a heavy, pulse pounding soundtrack to complement the demonic ruckus).

[Sigvatr]

I am torn because I am a "purist", but it seems like a good idea.

What ports support UDMF?

[Solarn]

Sigvatr said:

I am torn because I am a "purist", but it seems like a good idea.

What ports support UDMF?

ZDoom, GZDoom, Skulltag and I think that's it. Maybe Vavoom does too, I'm not sure, and it's planned for Eternity to eventually support it.

[Gez]

st.alfonzo said:

From what I understand, it has the ability to utilize different difficulty settings, amongst other things.

Instead of having three skill flags for things, you have as many as there are skills. So you can flag something to appear in UV but not in nightmare, or the reverse.

[myk]

Sigvatr said:
I am torn because I am a "purist", but it seems like a good idea.

Mostly not, in my opinion. Three settings (plus the two variants in the extremes) should be enough to cater to practically anyone, without adding extra work on thing placement that will be mostly pointless. I see little reason to add or modify the difficulty level structure unless new difficulty levels apply unusual settings to the player, monsters or whatever.

All you seem to need here is to make the three settings less extreme. Maybe increase skill 2 a bit, reduce 4 by some degree, or both.

[Vaporizer]

.

[Sigvatr]

myk said:

Mostly not, in my opinion. Three settings (plus the two variants in the extremes) should be enough to cater to practically anyone, without adding extra work on thing placement that will be mostly pointless. I see little reason to add or modify the difficulty level structure unless new difficulty levels apply unusual settings to the player, monsters or whatever.

All you seem to need here is to make the three settings less extreme. Maybe increase skill 2 a bit, reduce 4 by some degree, or both.

I've been moving towards this opinion more and more, but we are starting to get to a case of changing only a handful of monsters.

Err... why am I complaining?

[4mer]

Quite a tough map. I died on HMP a number of times :(
Nice graphics, I liked the sounds as well but I think they could perhaps be a little quieter.
I didn't like the start very much on UV, just found it annoying.
I thought a berzerk would make a nice addition or maybe a SSG or even some ammo.

Here's a Demo for you (not an FDA). I killed everything but forgot to get one secret.
I found it easier after getting the red skull key but I was playing safe of course.

Edit: BTW It plays with prBoom+ complevel 2

[gggmork]

uvmax in 14:07 (used hud):
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?postid=919057#post919057

[printz]

Sigvatr said:

I am torn because I am a "purist",

Then please be purist to the end, and convert all those sounds to Doom format, 8 bit.

[Sigvatr]

printz said:

Then please be purist to the end, and convert all those sounds to Doom format, 8 bit.

I've been using XWE which is probably the problem, I don't know why else the sounds have been fucking up because I made sure to save them at the Doom level of sound quality.

[Sigvatr]

gggmork said:

uvmax in 14:07 (used hud):
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?postid=919057#post919057

You are a very tricksy hobbit.

[printz]

Sigvatr said:

I don't know why else the sounds have been fucking up because I made sure to save them at the Doom level of sound quality.

You did it after those people complained? Okay then, nevermind.

[Sigvatr]

No, I mean initially.

[NaturalTvventy]

Wow man.

Just wow.

Square rooms. full of monsters. That's ingenious. Square rooms full of monsters. I've never played a level anything like it before. This thing's gonna revolutionize DOOM for sure. I bow to your amazing skills.

I can't wait for level 2 to be done. It looks like it's going to be even more square rooms full of monsters. Awesome.

Square rooms. Full of monsters.

Nah, I'm kidding. Do whatever you like. Cause obviously people like it, and that's a-okay with me. The point is, glass houses. And rocks, yaknow?

NT

[Sigvatr]

I can make the square room glass houses if you like.

[Guest]

Ok. So I played this level on UV. Silly me. I think we all know how that turned out. Now I think I am a pretty decent Doomer, and there is not much that I cannot finish with a little perseverance and a little luck. But this goes somewhat beyond that...

Ok Mr sigvatr, I am sure your Dooming skills are every bit as good as you say they are, I have no reason to doubt that, but this level has more to do with the luck of how the monsters move and shoot at any given moment more than it relies on your skills. I don't know. Calling yourself a skilled Doomer because you can finish a level like this is like calling yourself a professional boxer because you can hit yourself in the face until you pass out. Now a real professional boxer could probably achieve this in one punch, rather than getting several punches into it, bursting into tears and stopping, so I guess there is a skill of sorts, but that doesn't mean that it should be called a sport.

Except for the textures, which are superb, the level is probably best described as functional; it is simply there to do a job more than it is there to be anything in and of itself. At least that is how it struck me. It is a cleverly purpose built layout though, and I did like the lighting throughout. I also thought the music was a little vague for the level. Something with a slightly stronger sense of drive and rhythm might be good.

edit: and for crying out loud, make the spectres into demons. They serve no purpose except to lower the skill/luck ratio even further.

NaturalTvventy said:

Wow man.

Just wow.

Square rooms. full of monsters.

I would refer you to the famous wad 1SQUARES.wad, which was the ultimate example of square rooms full of monsters. Was quite a challenge when it first came out, I remember playing it in around 1996 if I am not mistaken.