Doom 4 should have...

[DASI-I]

Shaviro said:

Abstract is all fine and good. I think everybody wants hell to be very alien and unfamiliar. However if you want people to care and if you want them to notice that it's unfamiliar and strange, you have to preserve some contrast and show the player how the real-World every day doom universe is. You can't just throw the player into random crap and expect it to work like a masterpiece. The trick would be to either ease the player into it or shock him through a sudden change.

Of course! Obviously Stage 1 shouldn't start in Hell. When did I say that? What you said is exactly what doom 4 should be! I totally agree :)

[DASI-I]

Touchdown said:

Hahaha, no.



That's just glorifying something that 20 years ago was considered technical limitations. And this might be shocking to you but a apocalyptic hellish invasion and a lone hero stopping it all is the most cliche scenario you can think of and not being realistic won't magically turn DOOM 4 into the most original game on the market.

So you're saying if someone makes another Doom game, It shouldn't be about a guy stopping a hell invasion? The last time I played a game with a premise like that was (big surprise) Doom 3. Every other fist person shooter out there has aliens, terrorists, mutants, cyborgs, and zombies. If you take "hell" out of Doom then it's not Doom.
"Unrealistic" is the thing that will make the game stand out from other shooters of today. When I mean "unrealistic" I don't mean "random" and "unorganized", Take a look at (lets say) the Devil May Cry series, it's structured well, has variety, and is sometimes quite colorful without losing it's dark tone, and it's over the top. I want that but in a first person view with creative and varied weapons and monsters.

[Touchdown]

My comment was directed at you saying that moving towards realism (DOOM 3 style or so) will turn the game into something generic ('L4D with a Space Marine'). What I meant was that the permise is already generic and moving away from a more realistic depiction of the scenario will not suddenly make it original.

There's this notion that bringing DOOM closer towards visual realism will automatically make it generic and that having abstract design = super original and standing out. Your reply to Shaviro also confuses me. Do you only want Hell to be abstract? Or everything including earth locations? If the former then I don't see what's wrong with the kind of realism seen in DOOM 3 as Hell, while not perfect, was pretty surreal and abstract to me.

[Koko Ricky]

I've already mentioned it in some firm or another, but there are films and artwork that remind me of how Doom 4 ought to look. Event Horizon, Blade Runner, Total Recall, Alien, Aliens, Hellraiser, H. R. Giger, Morbid Angel's "Gateways" album cover, Cannibal Corpse's "Gallery of Suicide" cover, Obituary's "Cause of Death" cover, the industrial setting of Geidi Prime (Dune, Lynch version), stuff like that. I can see Doom 4 being realistic AND "out there" WHILE feeling like a Doom game, mechanics-wise.

[DASI-I]

Touchdown said:

My comment was directed at you saying that moving towards realism (DOOM 3 style or so) will turn the game into something generic ('L4D with a Space Marine'). What I meant was that the permise is already generic and moving away from a more realistic depiction of the scenario will not suddenly make it original.

There's this notion that bringing DOOM closer towards visual realism will automatically make it generic and that having abstract design = super original and standing out. Your reply to Shaviro also confuses me. Do you only want Hell to be abstract? Or everything including earth locations? If the former then I don't see what's wrong with the kind of realism seen in DOOM 3 as Hell, while not perfect, was pretty surreal and abstract to me.

Ok, I see what you mean. But please don't read too hard into my posts, I never said Doom 4 should ALWAYS be abstract. this is why I used DMC as an example. Is it always Surreal and strange? No, not always.

Anywho, Doom isn't original today but I think it was when it first came out. But we can't just simply change the core premise of Doom just because other games today have overused this concept and made it into something Cliché. Originality isn't my biggest concern, it's staying true to the IP.

[DASI-I]

You know, that brings up another point, a concern I have with today's gaming:
I was so annoyed when Tomb Raider (2013) wasn't actually a Tomb Raider game but rather another take on Uncharted that just so happens to star Lara Croft. It was a business decision rather than a creative one. The game was very much like Uncharted because Uncharted is popular, and then they just shoehorned Lara (atleast this chick claims to be Lara) in this game just so that they can use the Tomb raider IP to sell copies.

This is why I like Rage. id decided to create a brand new IP because of how different it was when compared to other games like Doom or Quake.

[Touchdown]

Staying true to the DOOM IP is a very interesting topic but I wish more people were actually willing to properly discuss it. It's not as easy as it seems, even if you ignore the delusional bunch that says 'take DOOM II into a modern engine' as if it's going to magically work.

A lot of people call for fast-paced action, blood and gore, carnage, abstract levels, lots of monsters, elimination of storytelling and such. All of those qualify as features of the original DOOM. However they also qualify as features of Quake. Quake, especially 1, is basically DOOM in 3D, just reskinned. Name any DOOM feature, you can find it in Quake. But does Quake qualify as DOOM? Where's the difference then? A theme? Would Quake with DOOM monsters and music feel like a DOOM game? Which features actually define the boundries that contain the very essence of DOOM?

We all agree that things like Hell, UAC, demons, first-person shooter action core should stay. That's not enough though. So which gameplay / lore / story / balance features are those most important ones? Those that you can take, translate into a 2013 engine / environment and have at least a significant amount of people think 'yeah, that's definitively DOOM'?

Another thing, like I said before, old restrictions became features in the eyes of people. A lot of what people zealously defend as crucial DOOM features are actually work-arounds for technical limitations. A lot of things that some consider hallmarks of DOOM are actually residues of the past design habits, bias or tendency to design things in a certain way spoiled by earlier, primitive games at the time. Again, those things became features for many. Does that mean that 20 years later developers are not allowed to move way past those restrictions just because a lot of people see them as important features, without questioning the actual reasons behind it?

Finally, the biggest question: how far can one stray away from the original DOOM? What is acceptable to do? How do you move past old restrictions without violating what DOOM is? Is it even possible to stay true to the old roots? More, is it really that important at all? Where does 'staying true to the roots' end and glorification of the past begins? Or even: where does 'staying true to the roots' end and self-righteous crusade against everything modern begins?

I can answer at least some of those questions from my point of view but I'm interested in what other people think.

[Avoozl]

Touchdown said:

Quake, especially 1, is basically DOOM in 3D, just reskinned.

Not to mention simplified and with a newer engine.

[Marnetmar]

I think abstraction could work if it's done in a surreal, H.R. Giger sense, not necessarily in a Doom 1/2 sense.

[DooM_RO]

In the end, I think it should be a much improved Doom 3. It had all the ingredients for a good sequel like: secrets, atmosphere, some non linearity, it just didn't develop as much as it should have, it's like Id were afraid to.

[DASI-I]

This is why I thought Doom 3 didn't quite succeed, it reused content lots of times. I actually got bored half way through the game. Personally, I don't think content from previous games should remain the same, same monsters, same guns, etc, but the core theming and spirit of Doom should be a constant in the series. Sure, id Software should toss away the silly stuff, like how the Player can run 30mph or how the player can't hop over a small obstacle just because it's more than 3ft high. Doom was exciting because we saw things we never did before. I would love to see new monsters and weapons so that it can be a new experience.

Doom4 should still feel like a Doom game not because of content. Consistent theming that the series is known for, but also Variety.

[DooM_RO]

DASI-I said:

This is why I thought Doom 3 didn't quite succeed, it reused content lots of times. I actually got bored half way through the game. Personally, I don't think content from previous games should remain the same, same monsters, same guns, etc, but the core theming and spirit of Doom should be a constant in the series. Sure, id Software should toss away the silly stuff, like how the Player can run 30mph or how the player can't hop over a small obstacle just because it's more than 3ft high. Doom was exciting because we saw things we never did before. I would love to see new monsters and weapons so that it can be a new experience.

Doom4 should still feel like a Doom game not because of content. Consistent theming that the series is known for, but also Variety.

Yes, yes very good point! I'm gonna tweet this thread on their page, maybe it could prove useful.

[Touchdown]

How is that a point at all? It's all just 'keep the DOOM spirit' but as you can see, not a single person can define what the 'DOOM spirit' is. None of the questions have been answered. All the 'points' people make are basically 'give me a perfect DOOM that I see in my fuzzy imagination' without explaining or defining ANYTHING.

What is the 'DOOM feel'? The 'spirit of DOOM'? The 'core of DOOM'? What EXACTLY you need to have, gameplay or otherwise, in a brand new blank-page project for it to FEEL like DOOM?

[DooM_RO]

Touchdown said:

How is that a point at all? It's all just 'keep the DOOM spirit' but as you can see, not a single person can define what the 'DOOM spirit' is. None of the questions have been answered. All the 'points' people make are basically 'give me a perfect DOOM that I see in my fuzzy imagination' without explaining or defining ANYTHING.

What is the 'DOOM feel'? The 'spirit of DOOM'? The 'core of DOOM'? What EXACTLY you need to have, gameplay or otherwise, in a brand new blank-page project for it to FEEL like DOOM?

It is without question, nothing like this. The HORROR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOWNi8m0yeI

[Retog]

The only people who can truly define the spirit of doom are the original id software team. Adrian Carmack, John Carmack, Tom Hall and John Romero. Since id software is most likely going to be disbanded by bethesda soon, I would like to see the old team get together and work on doom 4 as an independent project. Karmack is great at making engines, he was the brain behind doom while Romero was the heart of doom.

I think everyone will only be satisfied with doom 4 if the original creators return one last time.

[Shaviro]

Those people have aged 20 years in the meantime.

[DASI-I]

Touchdown said:

How is that a point at all? It's all just 'keep the DOOM spirit' but as you can see, not a single person can define what the 'DOOM spirit' is. None of the questions have been answered. All the 'points' people make are basically 'give me a perfect DOOM that I see in my fuzzy imagination' without explaining or defining ANYTHING.

What is the 'DOOM feel'? The 'spirit of DOOM'? The 'core of DOOM'? What EXACTLY you need to have, gameplay or otherwise, in a brand new blank-page project for it to FEEL like DOOM?

LOL. Your actually right. What exactly is the 'DOOM feel'? The 'spirit of DOOM'? The 'core of DOOM'?

Well, I think the game should induce a sense of Awe. Like what it did back in 1993, it blew my mind away! Not because of graphics (I got used to the graphics by the end of the first level) but because of the creativity in some of the later levels. The game had moved from something relatively familiar to something that was out of this world. The weapons were also pretty creative. Again, starting with familiar weapons like the pistol, shotgun, and chaingun. But then the player was introduced to the more 'out of this world' weapons, like the Plasma rifle and BFG (which were new and original at the time). Even their designs were bizarre. Same goes for the monsters. Starting with zombified soldiers but ending with Cyberdemons and Masteminds.
As the player digs deeper into hell itself, things get crazier and more exciting. Contrary to popular belief; Realism is something that can dampen the experience if it is used too often. Doom is not like other shooters and we should treat it as such.
That is what I think the 'Spirit' and 'Core' of Doom is. This is probably why I don't think id should recycle content from the last games because it's nothing new and it won't induce a sense of wonder and fear like it did when it was new because of how unknown and unpredictable it was.

At least that's the perfect Doom I see in my fuzzy imagination.

[Pencil of Doom]

It should have turn left and turn right,because i hate to use the mouse to turn and that's a bad habit that modern first person shoters have.
And that's frustating to many players that are used to use the arrow keys to move around.
As for realism that's another thing that i hate and i don't think it would fit right into Doom.

[DASI-I]

LOL. Well, I'm sure you can still set the controls up that way but I think using a mouse is better. Wait, are you just messing with me?

[Amph]

doom feel = active a switch and enemies pop out
jk
for me doom is , narrow complex-non-linear levels with enemies traps

[OpenMaw]

If Doom 4 ever sees the light of day it honestly should be a retro shooter with some modern sensibilities thrown in sparingly. It should have very good control, fantastic multiplayer, in depth customization options (FOV, resolution, various filters, various AA, sliders for everything under the sun.)

It needs to have a soundtrack that combines metal and atmospheric/haunting elements. It needs to be fast-paced with accents of mood and atmosphere throughout the levels. Things that send a shiver up your spine, but aren't about "BOO!" Or out right terror. Something I think certain Doom fans obsess about too much is the notion that Doom was scary. It really wasn't. It was atmospheric, it had moments that were creepy, but it was by and large a game where you were almost immediately given kick ass guns and blasting monsters back to Hell. That's Doom in my book.

It shouldn't bog itself down too much with story, though I wouldn't be against an intro, and some end-of-chapter style cutscenes.(I think Serious Sam 3 handled this well, you got a cutscene every once and awhile, and they were very short). I think they could explore the techno-demon aspect more. Say, having the demons kidnapping scientists and turning them into slaves to create more cybernetic demons.

There needs to be a set of modding tools, because that was one thing that really helped keep the original Doom going for as it has.

It's gotta have the classic pump action shotgun in it. Wood grain and all. The BFG and Chainsaw gotta be in there too. New additions wouldn't go amiss either. I'd love to see "The Unmaker" given a next gen treatment. You could even add that into the "plot" that you need the 3 components of a demonic weapon to defeat the leader of this invasion and thus have to travel to three different regions of Hell to find it. (With Earth/Mars acting as some sort of a monster filled hub, maybe?)

I'd like to see Monsters that are redesigns of the originals, with some variants thrown in. IE, you have imps, but then maybe you have imps that charge at you and start to burst into flame until they explode like a suicide bomber. Or maybe a Cacodemon that spits acid.


I'm seeing a lot of people on here who look back upon Doom with almost a cynical eye. Yes, there are many who look back on Doom with rose tinted glasses, but I think the important thing to remember is that what makes Doom great is self evident in the original game. It was popular for what it did. It had a new lighting style which hadn't really been seen before. It was fast paced, intense. It was easy to pick up and play. It was scaleable across many platforms. It had level design that was eerie, interesting, and later on really started to mess with your mind. It had vivid and interestingly designed demonic enemies. It had a fantastic soundtrack. It had a nice assortment of carefully balanced weapons. There were secrets to find, and interesting ares to explore.

Frankly I think they -should- have the player sprint at 30 miles an hour. There should be health packs, there should be secrets, and not just areas to explore but a reason to explore them. No infinite ammo crates, just guns and ammo you find lying around. Doom is part maze conquering, and part shooting monsters. That's the end of the line as far as "what is Doom." It's Dungeons and Dragons in the future with high tech guns. It's you, a shotgun, and the hordes of Hell. Modern military shooter conventions shouldn't even be a consideration.

Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon, Painkiller, Serious Sam 3, the upcoming Rise of the Triad Reboot and the new Shadow Warrior all embrace this notion, and they seem to work just fine. No, they don't appeal to everyone, but why must every shooter be a clone of Halo, Battlefield, or Call of Duty? I come to Duke, Quake, and Doom for a particular brand of shooter experience. I don't want MMS getting into that mix.

[DASI-I]

There are too many games competing to dethrone Call of Duty by releasing Call of Duty clones. While this happens, there is an untapped market that can not be filled with COD clones. Doom 4 better not try to be yet another COD clone with doom stuff shoehorned in just so that they can call it a Doom game. There are things that id mustn't incorporate into Doom that are a standard feature in COD and COD clones alike:

i.e: Future weapons MUST NOT function exactly like modern weapons. Like in Mass Effect 2 and 3. What is so special about the standard assault rifle, shotgun, or pistol that modern weapons can't do? They need ammo, they need to be reloaded, and some weapons like the sniper rifle requires manual reloading after only one shot. What is so special and futuristic about these weapons in the later MassEffect games? It's just their design and sound effects that stand out. I liked the early doom games because although you used very believable weapons that used real ammo, they however were more advanced than modern weapons. They were faster and didn't need reloading.

[DooM_RO]

@OpenMaw

Would people PLEASE stop wishing Doom 4 were like Painkiller/Serious Sam?!!! Those games are NOTHING like Doom, they are caricatures. If anything it should be a (much) improved Doom 3 because it already had the ingredients for a great Doom sequel, it was just half-baked.

[DASI-I]

DooM_RO said:

@OpenMaw

Would people PLEASE stop wishing Doom 4 were like Painkiller/Serious Sam?!!! Those games are NOTHING like Doom, they are caricatures. If anything it should be a (much) improved Doom 3 because it already had the ingredients for a great Doom sequel, it was just half-baked.

(THUMBS UP)

[Amph]

most similar game to doom is dn3d

[DASI-I]

Amph said:

most similar game to doom is dn3d

When it comes to gameplay, yes. But not when it comes to tone and style. From a mechanics standpoint, Duke3d is like Heretic, meaning, it's basically a clone of doom even though it was using a different engine. But other than that, Duke was it's own thing. It was more of a Tongue-in-cheek, Dirty, but slightly more realistic type of game.

[Tristan]

Heretic used the Doom engine. DN3D was half of my life at age 4, the other half being Doom of course. I wish Reloaded would be released >:(

[geo]

DooM_RO said:

@OpenMaw

Would people PLEASE stop wishing Doom 4 were like Painkiller/Serious Sam?!!! Those games are NOTHING like Doom, they are caricatures. If anything it should be a (much) improved Doom 3 because it already had the ingredients for a great Doom sequel, it was just half-baked.

Yeah DOOM and Painkiller are different, but still FPS. Painkiller involves circle strafing with 0 chance to get lost, going from big room to big room. DOOM has hallways, buttons to push, raising platforms, and blends action with problem solving. Painkiller is a step down and just feels pretty brainless and one dimensional. Playing Painkiller Overdose, for the first 3 levels.... the first 150 minutes it was just circle strafing. If only there was a lock on mechanic to make it easier.

[OpenMaw]

DooM_RO said:

@OpenMaw

Would people PLEASE stop wishing Doom 4 were like Painkiller/Serious Sam?!!! Those games are NOTHING like Doom, they are caricatures. If anything it should be a (much) improved Doom 3 because it already had the ingredients for a great Doom sequel, it was just half-baked.

DASI-I said:

(THUMBS UP)

geo said:

Yeah DOOM and Painkiller are different, but still FPS.
[/B}

Did the three of you actually read what I said? You'll note that I was talking about old-school or arcade action style of play (IE: The antithesis of what defines the current trends in mainstream AAA shooters) can be successful in TODAY's market without need for extensive change.

What I did not say was that Doom and Serious Sam/Painkiller were same. They are, however, similar by way of not being modern military shooters. They deal with large numbers of enemies, a wide range of different kinds of weapons, and certain similar arcade-action elements. Are they identical? No, but Doom has more in common with Serious Sam 3 and PK then it does Modern Warfare, Halo, and Call of Duty. My bottom line here, was that those kind of old style games can sell, and be successful in today's market. Which is something i've seen argued against time and again.

[DooM_RO]

The monster count does not need to be so ridiculously high in a Doom game. Sure, Doom 3 had few monsters until the second half of the game but Doom 4 does not NEED SS3 levels of carnage. A perfect balance would be 4 times as many as the latter Doom 3 levels but monster count isn't everything in Doom. Interesting monster placement and great balance are crucial to a good Doom experience, none of which Doom 3 had. I would like the monsters to behave like the classic ones BUT with a twist.

For instance, the AI of a Pinky could be written in a way that it acts as a meat shield for other monsters. If there are 2 imps, the Pinky will run towards you in a zig zag way but also doesn't let you hit the imps by putting itself between. Consequently, the imps could use flanking tactics.

There should be new monsters too like... a demon that AOE heals other demons for a fraction of the damage it deals to you, explosive Lost Souls, Barons throwing lesser demons at you, a cannibal demon that heals itself by eating corpses. Basically, oldschool gameplay with a twist. Like it or not, not ALL demons can be interesting during our times. A cacodemon would simply be seen as a stronger but flying imp.

My ideal Doom would be split in 3 episodes. The first episode would have gameplay like in E1 without much changes, while following episodes would feature improved monsters, new mosters (including the ones mentioned before), new weapons based on the same core (3 would always be a ""shotgun") but with a twist. E2 introduces alternative fire while E3 introduces magical weapons that can be upgraded and MINOR RPG elements.