Doom 4 should have...

[doom_is_great]

Doominator2 said:

Thats a great Idea, it would add more story and replay value to the game

What would really add replay value to the game are secrets with caches of weapons and what not. Also, they need increment the game's difficulty the same way id did back with the original Doom. Instead of just having enemies become bullet sponges and making their attacks do a lot of damage, they need to increment the monster count in each of the levels and also perhaps make their AI more advanced with each higher difficulty level. That would definitely make the game more re playable for me.

[Touchdown]

I'm repeating myself here but am I the only one who just wants a new DOOM game?

It seems like people are obssesed with making all kinds of rules like "if it doesn't have XYZ it'll not be a true DOOM!" or "it needs XYZ because otherwise it'll suck!" Like any of those 'features' are universally good or like any of them would instantly add the "DOOMiness" to the game.

Point is, I do have things in my mind that I think would make a great modern DOOM game, I have things in my mind that I believe would be the right things to do. But honestly, regardless of the direction, I just want a new DOOM title. I'll form my opinion on whether this direction is good or bad when I actually play it and I'll judge it on its own merits. I don't know what kind of impression it'll leave on me but I don't want to spoil myself with specific expectations that might just hurt my reception of the final game.

[Shaviro]

Touchdown said:

I'm repeating myself here but am I the only one who just wants a new DOOM game?

I'm right there with you. In fact I think it would be catastrophical to try to follow the archaic and extremely outdated formula of a Doom game. I believe there are a few things they need to do in order to keep a strong connection with Doom and convince everybody it's an actual Doom game. I don't think they need to go far beyond the audiovisual aspect though. Keep the style reminiscent of the originals for both graphics and sounds and you're halfway there. It should probably also contain a "we let out the zoo" centric story, but for my sake it doesn't need to be hell. Another dimension that happens to look hellish is fine for me. Actually saying it's hell is a mistake in my book. Let that be up to the player.

Apart from that it's a perfect opportunity to find a new direction for the first person shooter. I've on several occasions written what I'd like to see, but most important of all I want to see a modern, mature take on it. Fuck non-stop action and heavy metal. Let that stay in the early 90s or random indie games.

Point is, I do have things in my mind that I think would make a great modern DOOM game, I have things in my mind that I believe would be the right things to do.

Would love to hear them! This forum is littered with "AHMAGAWD NEEDS CONSTANT ACTION AND HEAVY METAL" and very little vision.

[DooM_RO]

I thought the hell levels from The Lost Missions really nailed the audiovisual aspect but the gameplay was extremely lacking.

As for the action, it should be like in the original. Intense action but not always non-stop. There should be quiet moments and very actiony moments. A narrative focused shooter works in Wolfenstein because it is much less defined than Doom from a gameplay/level design/ atmosphere POV but Doom is a much more defined game and the first thing Id should focus on is getting the visuals and the gameplay right and tell a story through a non-invasive manner such as PDAs and the environment. They shouldn't shove it down our throat.

[Shaviro]

DooM_RO said:

I thought the hell levels from The Lost Missions really nailed the audiovisual aspect but the gameplay was extremely lacking.

I thought the Lost Missions were O-K. My biggest issue with them were that they looked and felt like work-in-progress and the hell missions were the worst of the bunch. Most of them were pretty fugly. The whole thing could have used another year in production to be good.

As for the action, it should be like in the original. Intense action but not always non-stop. There should be quiet moments and very actiony moments. A narrative focused shooter works in Wolfenstein because it is much less defined than Doom from a gameplay/level design/ atmosphere POV but Doom is a much more defined game and the first thing Id should focus on is getting the visuals and the gameplay right and tell a story through a non-invasive manner such as PDAs and the environment. They shouldn't shove it down our throat.

Well, first of all, a story should never be "shoved down your throat". I know most people think of the Max Payne 3 approach whenever story is mentioned(or the famous John Romero drawing), but not all stories should be as incompetently presented as that. It's a game, yes. Not a cheap crime movie written by 15 year olds. That said you can't just start on "gameplay" and get that right and then start focusing on telling a story through non-invasive means. By then it's way too late. First of all they need to choose whether to make a casual shooter that you can jump into and shoot stuff or to make a work of fiction.
They are going to choose B. That doesn't mean they have to go all Call of Duty on the game.

I wouldn't say Wolfenstein is any less defined today than Doom is. It's probably the other way around actually. The scenario in Doom has huge potential for an amazing story presentation. What does story in a game mean? It means pretty much the same as in a movie or a book. There is a setup and a conclusion. In between you'll have a plot. Enveloping the story you have a theme or motif. The scenario playing out in Doom lends itself extremely well for a study of human interaction in the presence of great danger and impending doom (pun somewhat intended). Movies have an advantage over games in that you have greater control over the characters and their actions. Whenever you go Max Payne 3 with cutscenes taking over the experience you end up with very disconnected action. Flipsiding this, games have a huge advantage over movies. You get to experience things on a completely different level. For id software to get back to the frontier of game design they need to explore this dynamic.

Looking at the game as "gameplay" versus story is rapidly becoming a defunct way of doing game design. In fact that's how you end up with the retarded one-hallway, one-cutscene approach. You have to merge the two right from the start, because more and more of the game will be the "experience". Believing that AAA shooters will be getting back to throwing the player into the fray and letting him shoot at things without "bothering" him is just kidding yourself.

It's just not the direction games are headed and it's not limited to shooters.
X-Wing/Tie-Fighter were games where you fought as a rebel/imperial pilot and did missions that had a story. X-Wing Alliance (sadly the last entrance in the series) put MUCH more emphasis on the experience of being part of a family business that was eventually destroyed by the empire which forced you do join the rebel alliance.
Starcraft was a real-time strategy game with missions and a story. Starcraft 2 pits you as Jim Raynor/Sarah Kerrigan and lets you experience the story through their eyes.

[DooM_RO]

Umm, I've always thought that all Id games (except mayve Wolfenstein) have a very strong survival of the fittest undercurrent. It's not something you can accurately describe, rather all the small, unrelated elements of the game that give it its "feel".

It starts with the name "Id" Software, the Id being the part of our mind where the PRIMAL impulses come from, that is exactly how Id games are, there is something primal and savage in them, done in the simplest way possible. You kill or you die. The fact that in Doom, no one ever talks and the only vocalizations are grunts and screams of pain gives the game a lot of character in my opinion. Of course, many games do this but Doom and all 3 Quakes do it in a completely honest and unpretentious way. Kill or be killed, without any bullshit.

Even the names are monosyllabic words that describe intense human emotions or in the case of Doom, a complete and irrevocable sentence. RAGE, DOOM, QUAKE, there is something final, primal and decisive about what these titles inspire.

There is nothing mysterious about the demons, they have one goal only and that is to smash you into putrid piles of gibs. One thing I REALLY disliked about Doom 3 is that when monsters spawn, there is a one second roar animation. That is a complete fuckup because not only does it make the monsters vulnerable for one second but ironically, they also make them less scary. I really hate cutscenes where a demon senses you and slowly turns around. They instead should be very reactive and jump at you the very moment they see you.

Now of course, the way humans deal with this could lead to interesting conflicts, I agree, but it should not be the main part of the game. It should be optional, for those who just want to play the game to kill stuff.

I really like what they've done in Wolfenstein but I'm not sure if it would work in Doom. While Nazis are evil, they are in the end still humans who feel, and this is what separates Wolfenstein from QUAKE and DOOM and this is why I think Wolfenstein would indeed benefit from a story. The monsters in Doom should not have any emotions whatsoever besides rage and bloodlust, it would take away everything I love about them.

[Shaviro]

DooM_RO said:

Now of course, the way humans deal with this could lead to interesting conflicts, I agree, but it should not be the main part of the game. It should be optional, for those who just want to play the game to kill stuff.

But how would that work? How can you make great storytelling "optional"? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you have storytelling deeply rooted in the game's mechanics or you have two separate parts of the game where one ultimately gets in the way of the other. Devices like audio logs or PDAs to read are probably going to become tertiary story devices or be much less common. In a game like Bioshock Infinite you're flooded with voice logs and the likes. It ends up being more of a burden and you feel guilty for not reading it, but you can't be bothered because it's just too boring and disconnected from everything else. I'm all for extra story depth and details for people willing to explore. Logs can be used sparingly to deepen the game world and they can indeed be optional, but the basic story and theme can't be hidden away in optional time-traps because then you have none. For games it's "Subject, don't show" over "Show, don't tell" over "Tell". PDAs and voice logs are the least interesting means of conveying information to the player.

I really like what they've done in Wolfenstein but I'm not sure if it would work in Doom. While Nazis are evil, they are in the end still humans who feel, and this is what separates Wolfenstein from QUAKE and DOOM and this is why I think Wolfenstein would indeed benefit from a story. The monsters in Doom should not have any emotions whatsoever besides rage and bloodlust, it would take away everything I love about them.

For story purposes, the monsters themselves are just a device for enabling whatever you want to tell a story about. If you have seen the movie "The Mist", you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. The monsters themselves aren't showing emotions, the people involved are.

[DooM_RO]

Ok, then can you be a bit more specific? What kind of storytelling would not ruin the Doom experience? How are you doing it in Phobos?

[Shaviro]

What's the Doom experience? Nobody's going to be able to agree on one single thing which is why making up a very specific list of demands based on the 20+ year old game is a bad idea.

As for how I'd like to see Doom4 be presented I believe I've made quite a few posts on that subject already. this is probably the most recent.

As for Phobos, we don't really have the resources (manpower/people with specific skills in the areas) to do what we'd ideally do, so we try to go in different directions that might work. For the most part, the player will be set free in the levels knowing what has to happen next and we'll try to convey personal story information in creative ways (we have to, can't do them conventionally). It's both our gift and curse. It won't revolutionize stories in shooters, but the level of ambition is right in line with trying to create something that brings back a little more of the original game without compromising on our intention of taking Doom somewhere new.

[mrthejoshmon]

I'm going to make a quick sum up of the perfect game (for me) that Doom 4 will never be:

I want the realistic and disturbing monsters from Doom 3 (I especially want the Bruisers from Doom 3 ROE, those guys are awesome!).

I want fast, but not Doom fast gameplay (we are talking permanent sprint button speed, not 45MPH backwards running).

I want driving straight out of Id's recent RAGE game (I liked RAGE, I really loved the races and bandit combat in it).

I want level design straight from Serious Sam TFE, TSE and BFE (Exotic and interesting with many explorable areas and secrets!) without all the empty space in between.

I want the Doom 3 flashlight weapon for very obvious reasons (because it's a barrel of fun beating demons to death with a freaking flashlight!)

I want weapons that don't pack a punch, but are actually conventional in their purpose, examples:

I don't want an AR that can decimate an entire platoon, I want it to whittle them down and slowly hold them back.

I don't want a bolt shot rifle that is super weak but very accurate, I want one that will kill that little turd I am aiming at but also take a while to get the next shot/aim it.

In other words I want weapons that are useless in many aspects but useful in one to add a layer of strategy and skill to the game

I don't want Doom 3 BFG style multiplayer, I want things that are actually fun and actually work (like RAGE's multiplayer modes).

I want a very interesting, engaging and "alive" world I am fighting to defend (Battles happening, little untold stories like as mentioned previously and actual meaningful events)

I want a playable launch, that's what a fucking beta is for Battlefield 4!

I want none of that Marathon or Hexen styled cryptic puzzle bullshit where you have to do something like look at every pixel to progress (Here's looking at you pfhoraphobia!).

I want good music, like PSX Doom or even Duke Nukem Total Meltdown!

Give me the ability of FPS and TPS (Third person shooting) please.

Give me Half Life's dynamic story telling

Also customization...

But of course that will never happen, so I am not holding my breath. However it would be great to see a game like the one I just described (AKA rip off city lol)

[Doomguy777]

I see a lot of people saying they want no heavy metal and stuff and say it's stupid. But I think that a mixture of the modern thrash metal bands (such as Havoc, Hexen, and a few other thrash bands) along with some ambience could work well for DOOM 4. Also, we need a lot of Hell in DOOM 4 at least 50%. And who in the Hell mentioned vehicles?! DOOM isn't Battlefield for Pete's sake! I want DOOM 4 to be a huge slap in the face to modern First-Person Shooters, and I want it to have one-liners, 80's style action, and horror. Essentially, I want it to be like Aliens meets Evil Dead 2 or in a nutshell the game that Duke Nukem Forever wasn't. So please id Software, just give us fucking DOOM, not DOOM 3, not DOOM Infinite or Bioshock DOOM Infinite, or DOOM 3.5, or Residoom Evil, no.... I just want my fucking DOOM. Story is good and all, don't get me wrong.... but I want something that's actually fun like DOOM 3: Phobos and Black Mesa.

Thank you for reading this.

[Clonehunter]

This is a selfish thread. If you want this or that go and learn how to make it.

In that case I want a Michael Bay movie called Doom. And I want someone to learn that kind of stuff for me.

[Deleted_Account]

The futuristic architecture from Blade Runner would make for some great visuals.

[Doomguy777]

Doom 4 should be DOOM. It shouldn't be a Michael Bay movie (COD, Battlefield, Medal of Honor) it should be a fun, interactive title with engaging heavy metal and ambience music along with meaty realistic sounds, terrifying monsters, 50% of the game takes place in hell, no regenerating health, no reloading, just good ol' fashioned DOOM + looking up and down, jumping, and crouching of course.

[DooM_RO]

Doomguy777 said:

Doom 4 should be DOOM. It shouldn't be a Michael Bay movie (COD, Battlefield, Medal of Honor) it should be a fun, interactive title with engaging heavy metal and ambience music along with meaty realistic sounds, terrifying monsters, 50% of the game takes place in hell, no regenerating health, no reloading, just good ol' fashioned DOOM + looking up and down, jumping, and crouching of course.

Sounds like a shitty indie title.

[Megamur]

Honestly, I'd love if Id made a low-budget, indie-like Doom sequel. Then there wouldn't be so much pressure to appeal to the CoD-loving masses and it could actually play like a Doom game.

[Shaviro]

There are more directions than simply DOOM and CoD.

[Megamur]

Examples?

[Shaviro]

Are you seriously asking me for examples of directions for games (or shooters) that are not DOOM or CoD?

[DooM_RO]

Megamur said:

Honestly, I'd love if Id made a low-budget, indie-like Doom sequel. Then there wouldn't be so much pressure to appeal to the CoD-loving masses and it could actually play like a Doom game.

People expect innovation from Id, mostly in graphical immersion and gameplay. A shitty indie title will never give us that.

[darkreaver]

DooM_RO said:

People expect innovation ... gameplay. A shitty indie title will never give us that.

Are you kidding me?

[DooM_RO]

darkreaver said:

Are you kidding me?

Doom was a huge leap from Wolfenstein. If Doom had been the same as Wolfenstein but reskinned it would not have been the legendary game we have today. Doom 4 needs to keep what makes Doom a classic but bring some new stuff too. Either way, Doom deserves a lot more than a shitty indie sequel like Rise of the Triad.

[darkreaver]

Not entirely shure what you mean, but what I meant was that indie games brings in new, interesting and innovative gameplay much more often than the "good" old big companies.

[DooM_RO]

And the quality often leaves to be desired. Doom needs to have EVERYTHING done right. Gameplay, guns, atmosphere, level design, graphics. An indie game cannot do all. Doom is one of the most important FPSes, I certainly wouldn't trust an indie dev to fumble with it.

[darkreaver]

DooM_RO said:

Doom needs to have EVERYTHING done right.

+

An indie game cannot do all.

+

Doom is one of the most important FPSes, I certainly wouldn't trust an indie dev to fumble with it.

Yes, I agree.

Maybe not, but id has, in the last decade (including D3), proved they cannot do anything right.

You are correct, Doom is one of the most important FPSes. I wouldn't trust id to fumble with it ;)

I'm being super negative here, but that AAA (which I dont even know what means) talk about they have to make the expenses back and all that: thats whats ruining games. They stick with the same old buissiness formula and "what the kids want".

[Shaviro]

darkreaver said:

I'm being super negative here, but that AAA (which I dont even know what means) talk about they have to make the expenses back and all that: thats whats ruining games. They stick with the same old buissiness formula and "what the kids want".

It's a crutch, but I don't think it's ruining anything. I think you can explore new amazing ideas and have a wide array of different games, but you have to stay within certain boundaries if you want a chance to break even.

But that's for someone like id. If you're a small indie-dev you have a much more free reign. You can pitch a cool idea on kickstarter and let the project grow with its fans. You don't have the same monetary concerns as the project is kind of the reverse of what id is doing. They're making the game and THEN they pitch it to people. That pitch has to be right.

[Avoozl]

Perhaps they're spreading the budget on more employees than needed so the game gets made quicker.

[DooM_RO]

darkreaver said:

Yes, I agree.

Maybe not, but id has, in the last decade (including D3), proved they cannot do anything right.

You are correct, Doom is one of the most important FPSes. I wouldn't trust id to fumble with it ;)

I'm being super negative here, but that AAA (which I dont even know what means) talk about they have to make the expenses back and all that: thats whats ruining games. They stick with the same old buissiness formula and "what the kids want".

ANYTHING is a bit of a stretch. The graphics and atmosphere were astounding and Doom 3's gameplay was more or less like the originals (even if the execution was lacking). The guns in RAGE are also far better than the shitty nerf guns from Rise of the Triad that tried too hard to show how "awesome they are" Every gun in that game felt that it had no kick and tried to compensate with something. The game also had an aura of general shittyness to it, where the old school visuals clashed with the newschool ones, and not in a good way.

Really now, who would you give the game to? Don't say Croteam or People can Fly or I won't take you seriously.

IF Doom 4 sucks and the new Wolfenstein is what I think it is, then I hope Machinegames will give Doom 5 a try.

[Avoozl]

I think they would then just be better off ending the Doom franchise completely if that were to happen.

[Megamur]

Shaviro said:

Are you seriously asking me for examples of directions for games (or shooters) that are not DOOM or CoD?

I absolutely am. What direction are you hoping they'll take that's neither Doom nor CoD?

DooM_RO said:

People expect innovation from Id, mostly in graphical immersion and gameplay. A shitty indie title will never give us that.

Id did their best work when they were a small dev team, so I'd still like to see something like this attempted. And Id really hasn't been graphically innovative for the last decade anyway, and haven't had innovative gameplay since 1993 (and that's only because they included Deathmatch).

And really, the very best Doom games that have been released since the mid-90's have all been indie titles, specifically free mods. They've created some amazing things with absolutely no budget at all.