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Doom 4 should have...

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Doomguy777 said:

Doom is not about female characters, ethnic characters, or LGBT characters.

DOOM DOES NOT NEED THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BULLSHIT!

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS STUPID OVERSENSTIVE COMMUNIST LEFTIST BULLSHIT THAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN TRAINED TO DRINK LIKE KOOLAID!

DOOM shouldn't be politically correct. In fact DOOM should be so politically incorrect, it should have tons of gore, tons of dark comedy.

DOOM is about one man's struggle against Hell. That's your story. His squad has been wiped out. The marine's going crazy, and he's going to fucking kill all of those damn demons in Hell and make them pay for what they have done to his squad and his pet rabbit.

DOOM is about loneliness and bleakness.

Excatly.
This is how Doom has to be.

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DooM_RO said:

I just wanna kill stuff...I really don't think Doom should be as story driven as Wolfenstein, as much as I liked it. Doom is all about the gameplay and satisfying weapons for me. The gore should be like in Wolfenstein but expanded...In fact every gameplay aspect in Doom should be an evolution of the TNO formula. It should be what Doom was for Wolf3D.


Just because the general community of Doomworld is stuck in the past (I don't mean that as offensively as it probably sounds) doesn't mean id should (or even could). They have to cater to a larger market if they want to produce a triple A shooter. The game might even already be beyond the point where they can break even on sales. On top of that you have Bethesda pressuring id to create something on the same scale as skyrim. If that isn't enough, you have a lot of different developers on the team - each with their own dreams and desires. Sure, they've probably played Doom before joining id, but you can bet your money that they have their own ideas and aspirations as to how to best the competition. Creating a "just want to kill stuff" game probably isn't very high on the list. I could be wrong of course, but add all that to the comment from Tim Willits about not being stuck in the 90s and you'll get a picture that points more towards Wolf TNO than Doom 1.

The thing is, they're (most likely) competing on the same parameters as everybody else, with realistic looking locations catalysed by detailed "snapshots" of ingame storytelling. This makes it almost impossible to decouple the rich story experience from the action. Plenty of companies have tried this and they almost always fail. First Person Shooters *will* be going in the direction of more story exploration and less classic action. You can of course still make something much more action oriented, but it's becoming more and more niche. I personally think TNO has too much action and too little adventure, but I'm actually trying to keep my personal desires for Doom4 somewhat out of this discussion. I'm trying to paint the most realistic picture I can of what we can likely expect from Doom(4) based on current trends and whatever little info we've received. I can't wait for QuakeCon :D

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Doomguy777 said:

I hope they have a new story writer.... Graham Joyce was the bastard that fucked up DOOM 3. DOOM 3 was supposed to be a remake of the original. If that was the case...

Then DOOMGuy would have been fighting Communists in Central Asia and then getting deployed to Mars after assaulting his superior officer because his superior officer fired on innocent civilians.

Then he would be deployed to Phobos, where he fights through hangars, nuclear plants, toxin refineries, military bases, command control, laboratories, central processing, computer stations, and geological anomalies.

He then would fight his way through Deimos where Hell is merging with the overworld. And kill the Cyberdemon.

Then he would go to Hell itself and fight and kill the Spider Mastermind.

AND THE SOUL CUBE IS STUPID!!!!!


Doom 3 and Resurrection was written by Matthew Costello.

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Shaviro said:

Just because the general community of Doomworld is stuck in the past (I don't mean that as offensively as it probably sounds) doesn't mean id should (or even could). They have to cater to a larger market if they want to produce a triple A shooter. The game might even already be beyond the point where they can break even on sales. On top of that you have Bethesda pressuring id to create something on the same scale as skyrim. If that isn't enough, you have a lot of different developers on the team - each with their own dreams and desires. Sure, they've probably played Doom before joining id, but you can bet your money that they have their own ideas and aspirations as to how to best the competition. Creating a "just want to kill stuff" game probably isn't very high on the list. I could be wrong of course, but add all that to the comment from Tim Willits about not being stuck in the 90s and you'll get a picture that points more towards Wolf TNO than Doom 1.

The thing is, they're (most likely) competing on the same parameters as everybody else, with realistic looking locations catalysed by detailed "snapshots" of ingame storytelling. This makes it almost impossible to decouple the rich story experience from the action. Plenty of companies have tried this and they almost always fail. First Person Shooters *will* be going in the direction of more story exploration and less classic action. You can of course still make something much more action oriented, but it's becoming more and more niche. I personally think TNO has too much action and too little adventure, but I'm actually trying to keep my personal desires for Doom4 somewhat out of this discussion. I'm trying to paint the most realistic picture I can of what we can likely expect from Doom(4) based on current trends and whatever little info we've received. I can't wait for QuakeCon :D


Doom has a legacy. I understand that games have to evolve and I think TNO struck a really good balance, with a few exceptions. How do you evolve Doom but still make it feel like it? From all your descriptions it seems to me that they should just start a new IP. Doom is still relevant because of its gameplay and yes, there should be a story and it should be good but it should be a bit more understated. People still play Doom because of the gameplay and amazing shooting and those should be Id's top priority.

TNO did a good job at letting you play the levels uninterrupted but there were certainly things that bugged me. For instance, in the level right before Eisenwald, there is the part when you get in the car and then a giant robot almost crushes you. In Eisenwald, there is that part where you walk on that ledge, looking at those nazi officers escorting prisoners. Why did the developers think those were interesting? They felt really pointless, in that time I could have been doing something more interesting. There are also these short animations like the part where he pulls the lever. It is these interruptions that I am against. Control should be taken only when absolutely necessary. I am not against story cutscenes like Max Haas's farewell to Klaus or really most cutscenes, what bothers me are the pointless scripted events and some of the cutscenes (such as those in camp Belica). Of course when you look at the individually, it's not really much but when you add them all together you will see why they annoy me. I love shooting stuff TNO, I really do but I really think there should have been some kind of horde mode where all you did was shoot waves of nazis. One of the biggest strengths of Id games is that they are still played even after 20 years! TNO is a very fun game but it is clear that it wasn't designed to be played more than 3-4 times.

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Doomguy777 said:

But that's the whole point. Some of us don't want an interactive movie. In my opinion, you get more immersed in a game like Wolfenstein 3D or DOOM 1 per say because the atmosphere is gripping and pulls you in. You know what I am saying right? I mean, that's why games like Half-Life 1 pull me in.


I know a whole lot of people here don't want what is considered as an "interactive movie". The problem is though that this is the direction games are taking. Times have changed. The market has expanded. The strict action shooter/whatever is no longer the domain of the triple A developer. I know that sucks if you're into that sort of thing, but those times are most likely never coming back. It's not a natural progression for interactive digital media. I personally do agree though that "interactive movie" isn't all that desirable. Games are still finding their feet as a serious storytelling medium and more often than not you'll end up with cutscenes that are in the way of action and action that is in the way of the story. It's incredibly difficult to get right, but that doesn't mean they should stop trying. I agree that Half-Life 1 did it right (for 98), but even that approach just isn't enough today.

I did not like Half-Life 2, because it felt really generic and the game was bland compared to the first. It lacked the atmosphere and the mystery. I for one like the Xen levels because they made me feel like I was on another world.


Half-Life 2 is filled with disney like characters, long stretches of boring nothingness, bland visuals, contrived puzzles and (especially ep1) copy-paste locations. All that aside, the story presentation was better than average.

By the way, good luck on DOOM 3: Phobos and hopefully id Software takes notes from your posts, my posts, and GoatLord's posts.


Thanks, but at this point I believe they're either ignoring us or not very aware of their game community. (Or too busy).

P.S What do you think about my hallucination idea? You know where you have an insanity meter? I know it's not really DOOM, but I think it'd be cool.


It sounds like the kind of idea you should partially base your game around and have it as a general game mechanic. Sort of like Prey's spirit world. I would personally prefer to convey the insanity through character actions though, but that's just me ;)

Also, Bioshock: Infinite was overrated. The game felt so generic it's not even funny. Slaughter, elevator, slaughter, linear stuff, slaughter, elevator, linear stuff, linear stuff. It wasn't fun, it was like I was basically playing a movie instead of a game.


I agree that the action is godawful, but I don't see how that is like "playing a movie". One of the keys to creating a good movie is to keep things to the point. Anything that doesn't forward the plot gets cut. Games on the other hand have a history of stretching and repeating things. The problem with Infinite isn't that it's an interactive movie, the problem is that the story presentation has evolved way beyond the game mechanics which are stuck in the olden days as almost a semi free-roaming virtual cop.

By a tone, yes DOOM 4 can be scary and action-packed fun. Just look at DOOM 1 or Half-Life 1 for an example of what I mean. You are scared because of the sounds the demons make, and the fact that the demons look scary. You have low health and ammo, but you see a backpack full of ammo and a medikit right there. You rush for it only to turn around and shooting a bunch of demons. It's adrenaline-pumping, it's fast, and it's brutal.


I think you're confusing horror with suspense. Doom was never scary, but doom was suspenseful. The same goes for Half-Life.

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DooM_RO said:

Doom has a legacy. I understand that games have to evolve and I think TNO struck a really good balance, with a few exceptions. How do you evolve Doom but still make it feel like it? From all your descriptions it seems to me that they should just start a new IP. Doom is still relevant because of its gameplay and yes, there should be a story and it should be good but it should be a bit more understated. People still play Doom because of the gameplay and amazing shooting and those should be Id's top priority.


They probably should start a new IP, but it's much easier to market a new Doom game because of its name. You say people still play Doom and that's true, but the number is pretty insignificant in the larger spectrum. Doom is relevant in the context of game history, but it's nowhere close to being relevant today as a game people play. If you subject 100 gamers to Doom1, how many do you think would actually play more than a couple of minutes? Doom created a pocket in time in which we all reside and the game appeals to a select few new people, but it doesn't hold up today. Claiming it does is only fooling yourself. You and I can agree that it's a much better game than new X and Y shooter, but that means nothing in the greater scope of things. It's an archaic formula that won't easily (if at all) apply to modern shooters. All they can do is bring the visual/audio design into a 201X context and then work on something that will strike a chord with today's audience. That doesn't mean it has to be linear cutscene-fest or Call of Doom of course. There are plenty of directions to go in. Hopefully they come up with something new.

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Shaviro said:

They probably should start a new IP, but it's much easier to market a new Doom game because of its name. You say people still play Doom and that's true, but the number is pretty insignificant in the larger spectrum. Doom is relevant in the context of game history, but it's nowhere close to being relevant today as a game people play. If you subject 100 gamers to Doom1, how many do you think would actually play more than a couple of minutes? Doom created a pocket in time in which we all reside and the game appeals to a select few new people, but it doesn't hold up today. Claiming it does is only fooling yourself. You and I can agree that it's a much better game than new X and Y shooter, but that means nothing in the greater scope of things. It's an archaic formula that won't easily (if at all) apply to modern shooters. All they can do is bring the visual/audio design into a 201X context and then work on something that will strike a chord with today's audience. That doesn't mean it has to be linear cutscene-fest or Call of Doom of course. There are plenty of directions to go in. Hopefully they come up with something new.


Using Doom name off course will create a much bigger hype and a bigger return in money than trying to establish a new franchise.

I think the only studio today that brings hype to a new FPS franchise just by having the studio name in the game is Bungie, just look at all the hype towards Destiny.

Id should work hard, very hard to reach that level of Bungie to be able to create hype upon the announcement of a brand new FPS.

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Doomguy777 said:

Doom is not about female characters, ethnic characters, or LGBT characters.

DOOM DOES NOT NEED THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BULLSHIT!

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS STUPID OVERSENSTIVE COMMUNIST LEFTIST BULLSHIT THAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN TRAINED TO DRINK LIKE KOOLAID!

DOOM shouldn't be politically correct. In fact DOOM should be so politically incorrect, it should have tons of gore, tons of dark comedy, and it should feature a European-American male protagonist that preferably looks like Ash Williams from Evil Dead in Dwayne Hick's costume.

DOOM is about one man's struggle against Hell. That's your story. His squad has been wiped out. The marine's going crazy, and he's going to fucking kill all of those damn demons in Hell and make them pay for what they have done to his squad and his pet rabbit.

DOOM is about loneliness and bleakness.


Trust me, I dislike political correctness as much as the next guy. I just wouldn't mind a female main character if she was badass enough.

Think about it...one of the main inspirations for DOOM was the movie Aliens. Would it be that bad if the main character from DOOM 4 was similar to Ripley or Vasquez?

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If you've read the thread I made some time ago, you've got a pretty good idea on what I think about it. The thing is that I don't necessary share the popular idea that it's a bad thing that DOOM 4 won't be like the original game. People have this tendency to consider everything modern to be horrible and slow and boring. I disagree. There's a lot of bad games but there's also a lot of really great stuff. The future is more interesting than the past.

I also disagree that they should have made a new IP. Why shouldn't they make a new DOOM game? To preserve your precious memories? I don't see why it's not ok to go beyond what the original game was. There's no need to be so irrationally overprotective.

Seriously, people see everything as a negative thing. I know I say this a lot. But some folks really need to take a large step back and a deep breath. Reality is not as bleak as you might think.

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Shaviro said:

It's an archaic formula that won't easily (if at all) apply to modern shooters. All they can do is bring the visual/audio design into a 201X context and then work on something that will strike a chord with today's audience.


But why should DOOM 4 be like all other modern shooters? Why can't DOOM 4 be a breath of fresh air?

Should DOOM 4 just be a series of levels with absolutely no story or social elements? Of course not. But you can retain the fast and brutal gameplay and do that within a framework that pushes boundaries. An open world, co-op, competitive multiplayer, RPG aspects, etc.

You can make DOOM "modern" in ways that compliment what makes DOOM unique. Forcing in a cinematic story doesn't sound appealing to me, and I'm sure most gamers would look at DOOM 4 as just another solid shooter.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

But why should DOOM 4 be like all other modern shooters? Why can't DOOM 4 be a breath of fresh air?


Who said it should? Also, what are "all other modern shooters"?

Should DOOM 4 just be a series of levels with absolutely no story or social elements? Of course not. But you can retain the fast and brutal gameplay and do that within a framework that pushes boundaries. An open world, co-op, competitive multiplayer, RPG aspects, etc.

You can make DOOM "modern" in ways that compliment what makes DOOM unique. Forcing in a cinematic story doesn't sound appealing to me, and I'm sure most gamers would look at DOOM 4 as just another solid shooter.


All these arbitrary distinctions are poison for any debate. Where does this "cinematic story" thing come from? What is it? Who wants it?

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Doomguy777 said:

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS

Fucking shit, is this the state we're at now? Literally anything but a pasty-white hetebro is goddamn Ingsoc? Fucking gamers, man.

Shit, now I'm halfway hoping there's no straight white male characters at all. After Duke Forever, gamers have precisely fuckall to complain about.

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Shaviro said:

Who said it should? Also, what are "all other modern shooters"?

Shaviro said:

All these arbitrary distinctions are poison for any debate. Where does this "cinematic story" thing come from? What is it? Who wants it?



I was referring to comments like these:

Shaviro said:

you'll get a picture that points more towards Wolf TNO than Doom 1

Shaviro said:

First Person Shooters *will* be going in the direction of more story exploration

Shaviro said:

The problem is though that this is the direction games are taking. Times have changed. The market has expanded.

Shaviro said:

They have to cater to a larger market if they want to produce a triple A shooter.

Shaviro said:

It's an archaic formula that won't easily (if at all) apply to modern shooters. All they can do is bring the visual/audio design into a 201X context and then work on something that will strike a chord with today's audience.


In order for DOOM 4 to be successful, it has to throw out nearly everything about its gameplay and focus strongly on story. Is that not what you're saying? Especially with that last quote.

I don't think that's the case at all. I think DOOM 4 would be more successful if it simply emphasized what is unique about the classic games, and modernized the game in ways that compliment that style.

And by "all modern shooters", I'm referring to how pretty much every big-budget shooter has a strong focus on story. You can look at it from two angles. 1) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to focus on story as well. 2) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to be unique and have a different approach.

We have enough shooters striving for an "experience" over fun. DOOM is often considered the Super Mario of shooters. I don't see why DOOM 4 can't follow a similar path.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

I was referring to comments like these:











In order for DOOM 4 to be successful, it has to throw out nearly everything about its gameplay and focus strongly on story. Is that not what you're saying? Especially with that last quote.

I don't think that's the case at all. I think DOOM 4 would be more successful if it simply emphasized what is unique about the classic games, and modernized the game in ways that compliment that style.

And by "all modern shooters", I'm referring to how pretty much every big-budget shooter has a strong focus on story. You can look at it from two angles. 1) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to focus on story as well. 2) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to be unique and have a different approach.

We have enough shooters striving for an "experience" over fun. DOOM is often considered the Super Mario of shooters. I don't see why DOOM 4 can't follow a similar path.


Nobody is saying that, we are just speculating that it will have the same approach as Wolf TNO, they're trying their best to mix old school gameplay mechanics and story as well as other modern elements in this Doom.

We have some strong evidences about it. First of all, they hired Graham Joyce to make the story of this game, there wouldn't be sense in hiring a fiction science - horror writer for this game if its story were not taken seriously. Also we have Tim Willits, the director of id, who made this comment about the reboot of Doom after the previous D4 project was aborted:

“But, it was something that we looked at and the id guys looked at and said, look, it’s not even that something is necessarily bad. But is it good enough? You can make a game and say, ‘that’s not a bad game, but it’s not as good as an Elder Scrolls game should be,’ and there’s a difference...it’s not great. It’s not amazing. It’s not what people have waited all this time for. It needs to be like ‘this was totally worth the wait.’ And I think what the guys at id are working on is...they’re pushing the boundaries and challenging themselves. I don’t want anybody to look at id’s next project and have this reaction that it’s still stuck in the 90s.”

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Kaskaum said:

Nobody is saying that, we are just speculating that it will have the same approach as Wolf TNO, they're trying their best to mix old school gameplay mechanics and story as well as other modern elements in this Doom.


But that's my point. If id's idea of modernizing Doom is to simply mix in more cut-scenes or story, then that's very generic in this era of shooters. You're just making the game a bit more like everything else.

Kaskaum said:

We have some strong evidences about it. First of all, they hired Graham Joyce to make the story of this game, there wouldn't be sense in hiring a fiction science - horror writer for this game if its story were not taken seriously. Also we have Tim Willits, the director of id, who made this comment about the reboot of Doom after the previous D4 project was aborted:

“But, it was something that we looked at and the id guys looked at and said, look, it’s not even that something is necessarily bad. But is it good enough? You can make a game and say, ‘that’s not a bad game, but it’s not as good as an Elder Scrolls game should be,’ and there’s a difference...it’s not great. It’s not amazing. It’s not what people have waited all this time for. It needs to be like ‘this was totally worth the wait.’ And I think what the guys at id are working on is...they’re pushing the boundaries and challenging themselves. I don’t want anybody to look at id’s next project and have this reaction that it’s still stuck in the 90s.”


Once again, you have to keep in mind that they already scrapped a version of Doom 4 that was cinematic and story-driven, since they said it didn't feel like Doom. So seeing as they scrapped that version, that actually leads us to believe the current version is very different.

And again, Joyce was hired five years ago, for the first version of the game. We don't know if he's still around.

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CaptainW said:

Fucking shit, is this the state we're at now? Literally anything but a pasty-white hetebro is goddamn Ingsoc? Fucking gamers, man.

Shit, now I'm halfway hoping there's no straight white male characters at all. After Duke Forever, gamers have precisely fuckall to complain about.


In a nutshell, what I'm basically trying to say is Political Correctness is absurd and it's getting ridiculous. Gamers are complaining too much. How hard is it to have a big buff white guy straight from an 80's action hero movie be DOOMGuy? Because that's what DOOMguy is, none of this stupid liberal bullshit they force on us.

Yes, the thought police and all of that Ingsoc political correctness bullshit has been forced on us gamers. I am Eurasian, I want to play as somebody who looks like me so I play as the white guy or the Asian guy. Either way it's a win-win for me because indoors I'm tan and outdoors I'm pale. So herp-a-derp-derp. Fuck political correctness, and fuck liberalism.

No I'm not a conservative or a right-winger. I'm a socialist. Not a Communist! A socialist! There is a huge difference!

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Doomguy777 said:

How hard is it to have a big buff white guy straight from an 80's action hero movie be DOOMGuy? Because that's what DOOMguy is...


I agree. I hope that id does the same thing with Doomguy that Machine Games did with BJ. Make Doomguy look as close to the original Doomguy as possible. His face should be the express image of the little head in the bottom of the middle of the screen in Classic Doom.

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doom_is_great said:

I agree. I hope that id does the same thing with Doomguy that Machine Games did with BJ. Make Doomguy look as close to the original Doomguy as possible. His face should be the express image of the little head in the bottom of the middle of the screen in Classic Doom.


But marines including Doomguy in Doom classic use some green suit with a helmet:

http://uac-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/doom_guy_speedpaint_by_gausswerks-d4lzm8d.jpg

Doomguy even tough his face is shown in the game UI, when D2 ends and shows all monsters, and their deaths, the Doomguy is there with a helmet, so during all the time in game he was covering his face. If they follow it in the new Doom and wear doomguy with a similar green suit, it would be close to Halo's Master Chief suit:

http://computingforever.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/halo-5.jpg

Or Dead Space's suit:

http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/full/art-Dead-Space-awesome-488005.jpeg

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Shaviro said:

They probably should start a new IP, but it's much easier to market a new Doom game because of its name. You say people still play Doom and that's true, but the number is pretty insignificant in the larger spectrum. Doom is relevant in the context of game history, but it's nowhere close to being relevant today as a game people play. If you subject 100 gamers to Doom1, how many do you think would actually play more than a couple of minutes? Doom created a pocket in time in which we all reside and the game appeals to a select few new people, but it doesn't hold up today. Claiming it does is only fooling yourself. You and I can agree that it's a much better game than new X and Y shooter, but that means nothing in the greater scope of things. It's an archaic formula that won't easily (if at all) apply to modern shooters. All they can do is bring the visual/audio design into a 201X context and then work on something that will strike a chord with today's audience. That doesn't mean it has to be linear cutscene-fest or Call of Doom of course. There are plenty of directions to go in. Hopefully they come up with something new.


Like I said, I liked the Wolfenstein formula to gunplay and level design, I just wish those pointless forced animations were fewer and they made the level design just a bit more complex than it was.

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I think some people are taking the references to Skyrim and Elder Scrolls games a little too literally. I don't think they mean it needs to be as open-world and expansive and huge as they are in the sense that you could put 1000 hours into the game and still not find everything. I think they just mean it needs to be as awesome and successful as they are, not necessarily that the gameplay or size of the game world needs to be the same.

In that regard, I have mixed feelings about this. If they want it to appeal to such a vast audience, they will probably have to put in some elements that the mainstream game crowd eats up that I personally hate. The question is which elements they work in and how much they stick out or ruin the game for me. The things they did to Doom 3 didn't bother me, but some of the changes they made to the BFG edition(like the flashlight and cutting some enemies out of the harder fight sequences and making every health station have 100 health when the game wasn't even hard and had plenty of health laying around) just felt like a joke to me and really made me dread what they would do to Doom 4 to try to make it cliche and easy enough for the mainstream game crowd. But again, I don't think they think they need to make it open-world with a ton of side quests and leveling and character interaction. They want it to be comparable to Skyrim in terms of success, not the actual structure and mechanics of the game.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

In order for DOOM 4 to be successful, it has to throw out nearly everything about its gameplay and focus strongly on story. Is that not what you're saying? Especially with that last quote.


No. It's more about starting on something new than throwing something out. You have to realize that everything has changed spectacularly since 1993 and you can't just expect that everything unique about Doom works in a new context. Do you expect 90mph player speed? Slow projectiles? Constant music?

And by "all modern shooters", I'm referring to how pretty much every big-budget shooter has a strong focus on story. You can look at it from two angles. 1) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to focus on story as well. 2) In order to be successful, DOOM needs to be unique and have a different approach.


Both 1 and 2 are (more or less) requirements that need to be met if they are to succeed in today's market with a very expensive AAA shooter. If you somehow think that means something that's not unique and like everything else, then you're mistaken. It of course has to be unique, but more importantly: newsflash; Not all modern big budget shooters are the same. Sure, there may be a couple of big ones in the "leading" (saleswise) military subcategory, but Far Cry 3 is extremely different from Bioshock: Infinite which again is completely different from Wolf: TNO which is nothing like Dishonored. The variety today is much bigger than it ever was in the 90s. Some of you guys really need to expand your horizons a little. Things aren't as bleak as you might think, like Touchdown said.

We have enough shooters striving for an "experience" over fun. DOOM is often considered the Super Mario of shooters. I don't see why DOOM 4 can't follow a similar path.


I'm not so sure we do. Most of the modern shooters I've played use the story as a break in between long uninspired segments of "unevolved" stretches of game. Take Wolf TNO for instance. The story was nicely done and all, but it's not integrated into the experience as much as it supplements the action. In fact, many shooters have a pretty clear division of "story time" and "action time". That's not focusing on the experience, that's trying to have your cake and eat it too. For Wolf it somewhat works, but I still found the action boring towards the end and in the way of the story.

I think what needs to happen is to finally evolve the game mechanics a little so they fit with the story presentation and the high-fidelity context. I really like where they were going with it in Half-Life 1 (and even 2). Focusing on the experience means you have to create a structure that allows for the plot to unfold before your eyes through ingame events rather than a cutscene.

I think this is a much bigger part of the problem than story focus.

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TNO sorta-kinda had levels, didn't it? Separate missions, at least. The story was generally developed in lulls during and between them leaving room for the action.

Doomguy777 said:

Yes, the thought police and all of that Ingsoc political correctness bullshit has been forced on us gamers.

Bull to the shit it hasn't. "Us gamers" don't have the right to say one goddamn thing about PC in an industry that saw fit to fund Duke Nukem Forever.

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Shaviro said:

I think this is a much bigger part of the problem than story focus.


I was about to reply to your whole post, but this is the source of our disconnect.

It's certainly annoying how nearly every big-budget game has to include typical action/shooting sections, breaking up what is usually the more interesting part of the game. Why can't there be more games that focus entirely on an organic experience of exploration, character interaction, etc?

BioShock: Infinite being the perfect example. That entire game should have been about exploring Columbia, interacting with the characters, and solving the mysteries behind the city, with perhaps some situations organically escalating into violence. But in typical fashion, it forced in a ton of shooting sections for wider appeal.

I agree with that. There should be more games that try to break those boundaries. But this is DOOM. And if DOOM emphasizes it's unique aspects, while modernizing in ways that don't detract from that experience (The New Order's cinematic story being an example of something that does detract), then I feel that would be best for the franchise. It would feel unique and refreshing while still retaining and strengthening the brand identity.

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CaptainW said:

TNO sorta-kinda had levels, didn't it? Separate missions, at least. The story was generally developed in lulls during and between them leaving room for the action.


Bull to the shit it hasn't. "Us gamers" don't have the right to say one goddamn thing about PC in an industry that saw fit to fund Duke Nukem Forever.


BWAHAHAHA! DNF wasn't even that bad. It was terrible, not because of it's humor but because of the fact it played like shit. Duke 3D with sourceports is much better.

PC is liberalism, and I don't want liberalism shoved down my throat.

DOOM is about one man vs Hell and that's how it's going to remain.

All of his squad perishes in front of him, and he's the last one alive.

On top of that DOOMGuy is a big tough white guy straight from an 80's action movie. He's practically Rambo in a Space Marine costume.

What is it with you liberals and destroying all of the good stuff we have? Next it's going to be Super Mario Bros where instead of playing as Italians you play as Mexicans and Central Americans crossing over the US Border.

And then after that you guys will fuck up Evil Dead. Wait that's right you feminazis have already fucked up Evil Dead with that shitty remake.

And Red Dawn you made it from the Russians into the North Koreans. The Russians make more sense because their army is huge and they could invade us more easily.

Doesn't anyone else here agree with me that liberalism and political correctness is getting too out of hand? Doesn't anyone else agree that the political left is going too far left? I'm a socialist, not a Communist and I say fuck Communism, fuck liberalism, fuck Zionism, and fuck political correctness.

Political correctness has made the West as a whole too sensitive as a society. We used to be tough, and manly. Now we are nothing more than wimps.

Yes, we need DOOMGuy to be a big tough white guy from an 80's action movie. You know why?

Because in a world, where white kids are constantly fed images of big tough black guys, and big tough Hispanics, do they ever see big tough white guys? No they don't, only what the television wants them to see. It would empower them so much more if they could just see DOOMGuy or something like that you know. I should know for a fact it makes me feel weaker when I see shit like that you know. But none of you guys understand that.

But no, you guys are so relentless, so cruel, so alien, that you must change the very game that is DOOM. DOOM was based on Aliens and Evil Dead 2.

In fact the protagonist of Classic DOOM looks like Ash Williams in Aliens.

The protagonist of Classic DOOM was your typical 80's action hero, by that I mean a big tough white guy that spews off one-liners.

But OH NO, God forbid that we have that. No we should make DOOMGuy a fucking black bisexual atheist liberal illegal immigrant woman that's hellbent on killing everything.

Political correctness is dumb, stupid, and quite frankly is nothing more than thought control. To disagree with that is doublespeak in itself.

George Orwell was right about doublespeak, and thought control, and thought police. Except in this cruel world, we have politcal correctness police, and censorship, and uber-liberals verging on Communist.

Man, stop trying to force fucking liberalism and your Communist bullshit on us. We don't want political correctness ok?!

DOOM isn't political, and DOOM isn't about political correctness.

DOOM is about one man's struggle against Hell. The man is a big buff white dude. Most of us gamers are actually you know, most of us are white and Asian. None of us here are black or Hispanic (no offense to those guys on the forums).

I'm Eurasian for crying out loud. I want to play as someone who looks like me! If it's a big tough white guy, then by all means I am extremely happy with that. This whole diversity bullshit is just a codeword for white genocide anyway.

The whole liberal dogma of diversity basically goes like this.

Africa for Africans.

Asia for Asians.

Europe for everybody? Oh wait that's right, Europe deserves it according to their corrupt hellish logic.

These are the same people that start the wars and watch from an ivory tower. These are the same people that are born and raised with a golden spoon in the mouth, that fucking have tons of money and encourage and promote diversity in Europe while watching from an ivory tower looking down at the results and seeing the people suffer.

They promote multiculturalism but they live in all-white areas the fucking hypocrites.

I'm not a racist, I was brought up in a Eurasian Middle-Eastern Jewish family that follows Roman-Catholicism. If that's not diverse enough for you then I don't know what the fuck is.

I'm not exactly the most devout Catholic out there, but I know for a fact that there is a God and there is Jesus the son of God and the Holy Spirit.

I don't go around shoving my religion down people's throats, and I don't go around shoving socialism down people's throats either. You know..

You know what annoys me the most in the DOOM community? The people who try to shove shit down your throat that you don't fucking want.

Yeah I know I've been cursing more than an drunk Irishman, but you know what? Who gives a fuck, and secondly... why on Earth are you liberals so persistent in fucking up everything we have?

You want to know something?

The real demons are the liberals, the fascists, the Nazis, the Communists, the conservatives, the Zionists, and all of those bastards who try to force shit on us that we don't want.

So for the love of God, stop the whole schtick about DOOM needing political correctness.

BECAUSE DOOM AND OTHER VIDEO GAMES DON'T FUCKING NEED IT! AND I AM SICK OF YOU LIBERALS DESTROYING AND DECIMATING EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE!

SAME GOES FOR THE CONSERVATIVES AND ALL THE BASTARDS THAT TRY TO FORCE SHIT ON US THE GAMERS AND THE GAMING COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE!

Jeez, OK I am done with my big rant.

On topic, DOOM 4 should have the feeling of being alone.

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As someone stated above, Doomguy in classic Doom runs faster than enemies projectiles, it is humanly impossible. The only thing they can do to adapt it in a modern game is giving Doomguy a high tech suit or exoskeleton which gives him super speed-strenght, like the one we see in Crysis, this suit even provides temporary invisibility.

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Kaskaum said:

As someone stated above, Doomguy in classic Doom runs faster than enemies projectiles, it is humanly impossible.


Doom 4's speed doesn't have to be quite as extreme as the classic games, but I feel there should be some speed. Your exo-suit idea would make sense if you want to keep the story grounded somewhat.

And Doomguy777....please....stahp.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Doom 4's speed doesn't have to be quite as extreme as the classic games, but I feel there should be some speed. Your exo-suit idea would make sense if you want to keep the story grounded somewhat.

And Doomguy777....please....stahp.


Sorry bro, the liberal dude just pissed me off and I had it up to here with his remarks of fucking political correctness in DOOM.

Anyway, on topic I was going to say that DOOM 4 should have dark humor. That's what DOOM always had.

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Doomguy777 said:

Sorry bro, the liberal dude just pissed me off and I had it up to here with his remarks of fucking political correctness in DOOM.

Anyway, on topic I was going to say that DOOM 4 should have dark humor. That's what DOOM always had.


I want to see a serious-grounded Doom, a dark humor would turn it like some sort of Dead Rising or Lollipop Chainsaw game and would waste all the millions they're investing in the game(D1-2 didn't cost even 1% the development cost of current AAA games).

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