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DASI-I

Doom 4 should have...

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Isn't that what DOOM 3 was?


The problem of D3 was the design of the monsters and the evironment that did't provide any open scenario to fight a bigger number of monsters, 99% corridor gave the game a bad feel.

A dark humor Doom would turn it like Serious San 3, it would not be a good idea.

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Kaskaum said:

The problem of D3 was the design of the monsters and the evironment that did't provide any open scenario to fight a bigger number of monsters, 99% corridor gave the game a bad feel.

A dark humor Doom would turn it like Serious San 3, it would not be a good idea.


Yeah, I'm not sure it should be overly humorous either. But in addition to having larger environments and more monsters, I think you'd also need the speed. You can't deal with a ton of monsters at once unless you're either agile enough or have to take cover often. And the latter is boring.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Yeah, I'm not sure it should be overly humorous either. But in addition to having larger environments and more monsters, I think you'd also need the speed. You can't deal with a ton of monsters at once unless you're either agile enough or have to take cover often. And the latter is boring.


That's why a high tech suit Crysis like would work and keep the game grounded.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

I was about to reply to your whole post, but this is the source of our disconnect.

It's certainly annoying how nearly every big-budget game has to include typical action/shooting sections, breaking up what is usually the more interesting part of the game. Why can't there be more games that focus entirely on an organic experience of exploration, character interaction, etc?

BioShock: Infinite being the perfect example. That entire game should have been about exploring Columbia, interacting with the characters, and solving the mysteries behind the city, with perhaps some situations organically escalating into violence. But in typical fashion, it forced in a ton of shooting sections for wider appeal.


I agree completely with all of that. Wolf TNO could also have used more of the same exploration/interaction. Without abandoning the action of course.

I agree with that. There should be more games that try to break those boundaries. But this is DOOM. And if DOOM emphasizes it's unique aspects, while modernizing in ways that don't detract from that experience (The New Order's cinematic story being an example of something that does detract), then I feel that would be best for the franchise. It would feel unique and refreshing while still retaining and strengthening the brand identity.


Well, incidentally I think Doom is the perfect candidate for a less action, more exploration (and story through exploration in the more subtle manner). I know that sounds backwards, but compare your playtime in Doom 1 and 2 with Bioshock: Infinite or Wolf TNO. Waaaay more "action" in the two latter. Once you've cleared out the relevant area(s) in Doom, you'll get some nice quiet time where you're puzzling together how the level works, looking for keys, trying to find a way to progress. Wolf and BI work more like a series of secluded areas that force you into (way too much) action. The variety and the freedom to handle this variety in Doom (and especially Doom2) is something that could be brought forward and appeal to "modern" gamers. In relation to Wolf, they could dial back the amount of cutscenes and direct character interaction to selected keypoints in the game. As for the amount of action, I'm certainly not proposing it should be abandoned or even necessarily be taking up less screentime than everything else, but the action will only get better if that's not all you have to do. If there's always a fight around the next corner, the game loses its "soul" in boring predictability and starts feeling like a chore. Like Bioshock: Infinite or the later levels of Wolf.

I've always felt that the missions of most modern shooters are way too short. It should at least be something you would pack a lunch for. In RAGE you wouldn't even need to lock the door to your house as you'd be back in 5 minutes...that's a completely different topic I know, but the point being that with longer missions you could get away with less condensed action without being any less of an action game :)

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Cybernetic-slash-bio-slash-whatever enhancements could be a great justification for classic Doom movement speed.

Looking at how Bethesda's been doing things lately, I'm hypothesising there'll be some amount of customisation that would at least allow for classic-style gameplay elements as perks or stats. So then stuff like fast movement and pinpoint aiming would make it in, choosable amongst other gameplay styles. From a marketing standpoint, this might be the best course of action, if hardly from a balance one.

Doomguy777 said:

Snipfront

Doom 4 should have the most literal possible opposite to everything this bloke says.

Not "I want." It objectively should.

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I'd like to briefly comment on the subject of realism.

Apparently when this is mentioned, people think of slow movement speed and the need to justify the 'abnormalities'. I have a different take on this.

I believe things like higher movement speed, taking a lot of hits before dying and so on fall into a category of things that we don't need a justification for. Actually providing a justification would do more harm than good. Bottom line: there are things that as gamers we just accept because we know it's a game. And we don't need 'reasons' for this.

In System Shock 2 there was a weapon breaking system. Did you know that it originally had an explaination? The idea was that Annelids have released some sort of toxin that makes weapons jam and break fast. That explaination was removed and for a good reason. Because we didn't need it. Weapons break, you need to use maintenance skills to keep them in good shape, repair them if they completely break, that's a part of the system-heavy design that we can just accept. We don't need explainations like this.

(this might not be the best example because a lot of people complained about this system but I still think it delivers the message)

Again, there are things that are not realistic but do NOT break the credibility of a serious and realistic gameworld. Exoskeleton to justify movement speed? Come on. Just balance it correctly, make it proper for dodging, don't overdo it and it's done. We really don't need reasons for things like that. As long as the movement 'feels' correct and fun, it doesn't matter how realistic it is.

When I talk about realistic approach to DOOM 4 I mean the credible and serious gameworld without being campy. That does NOT mean it needs some far reaching explainations for everything that is a result of it being a game. We can have faster movement speed. We can have all weapons at once. None of this goes against the 'realistic' approach I describe.

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Shaviro said:Well, incidentally I think Doom is the perfect candidate for a less action, more exploration (and story through exploration in the more subtle manner).[/B]


It turns out that we actually have a similar vision for Doom 4. I also think it would be a good idea to have more exploration and subtle storytelling, but most of it should be optional and up to the player. And I hope the action feels roughly like the classic games. I want the speed, the gore, the hordes of enemies, etc.

When I replay the game, I just don't want to sit through a lot of cut-scenes, scripted sequences, and chats with NPCs. The classic games are very repayable because of the simplicity in that regard. But you can certainly infuse some story into the environment, leaving the player to discover it if he/she wishes to delve deeper.

Basically, the storytelling should be similar to Doom 3, but without the cut-scenes. Videos, documents, the occasional NPC, and the environment itself; that should tell the story.

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CaptainW said:

Cybernetic-slash-bio-slash-whatever enhancements could be a great justification for classic Doom movement speed.

Looking at how Bethesda's been doing things lately, I'm hypothesising there'll be some amount of customisation that would at least allow for classic-style gameplay elements as perks or stats. So then stuff like fast movement and pinpoint aiming would make it in, choosable amongst other gameplay styles. From a marketing standpoint, this might be the best course of action, if hardly from a balance one.


Doom 4 should have the most literal possible opposite to everything this bloke says.

Not "I want." It objectively should.


You aren't even a DOOM fan. You are just an ultra-leftist British Communist who wants DOOM to be politically correct. Fuck that, I'm sick of people trying to fuck video games.

Keep DOOM, what DOOM is. Not some liberal fantasy land for people like this guy who think everything needs to be politically correct. Those kind of people, are the kind of guys who keep games from being fun.... they are the ones who love Call of Duty and all of that shit.

CaptainW are you trolling? Are you seriously one of those libtards? Are you trying to make my anger come out? Are you even a DOOM fan to begin with? Because if you know your DOOM history, you know that DOOM was directly influenced by Aliens and Evil Dead 2.

DOOM 4 should have the one man vs hell kind of feeling again.

Also it shouldn't have politically correctness to appease liberal wankers and their Communist lot....

I hate the political left and the political right. I'm in the center, and I will stay there because it's nice and comfortable thank you very much for asking....

Where's Shaviro and Goatlord when you need them? Heck it'd be nice to see DOOM_RO post here again....

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Dude chill the fuck out. Who gives a shit what the player character is. Doom Marine is a non-character. Unless it's completely immersion breaking like ssome 100 pound 5'-5" person who can barely lift 20 pounds magically carrying an entire arsenal and defeating hell, then the PC can be anything because it's completely unimportant.

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Doomguy777 said:

You aren't even a DOOM fan. You are just an ultra-leftist British Communist who wants DOOM to be politically correct. Fuck that, I'm sick of people trying to fuck video games.

Keep DOOM, what DOOM is. Not some liberal fantasy land for people like this guy who think everything needs to be politically correct. Those kind of people, are the kind of guys who keep games from being fun.... they are the ones who love Call of Duty and all of that shit.

CaptainW are you trolling? Are you seriously one of those libtards? Are you trying to make my anger come out? Are you even a DOOM fan to begin with? Because if you know your DOOM history, you know that DOOM was directly influenced by Aliens and Evil Dead 2.

DOOM 4 should have the one man vs hell kind of feeling again.

Also it shouldn't have politically correctness to appease liberal wankers and their Communist lot....

I hate the political left and the political right. I'm in the center, and I will stay there because it's nice and comfortable thank you very much for asking....

Where's Shaviro and Goatlord when you need them? Heck it'd be nice to see DOOM_RO post here again....


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Doomguy777 said:

You aren't even a DOOM fan. You are just an ultra-leftist British Communist who wants DOOM to be politically correct. Fuck that, I'm sick of people trying to fuck video games.

This is the perfect >9000 autistic nerd rage distilled into a quote. I'm soaking it in with all my senses, I hope keyboards have been smashed during typing it out. Much respect!

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Are my ears burning? Anyway, Touchdown made some interesting points about the new Doom and realism, but I have to say that I disagree with the idea that it would disrupt gameplay to have explanations. When I imagine the Doom guy wearing a powerful combat/battle suit that enhances running, and being able to store weapons and lots of ammo because everything is compact and foldable, it doesn't feel excessive to me. No one would have to actually come in and explain these things. You could just see them happen, and infer from the visuals. That sort of technology is likely to exist in the future, anyway.

Going overboard would entail say, having a very specific explanation for why a double-barreled shotgun exists in a future environment. In the ROE expansion, it exists as a personal possession in a superior's office; a relic of the past. You infer that from its location. That doesn't disrupt anything for me.

Or how about the demons? Where do they come from, and who are they? We don't need to be told much. Do it "Event Horizon" style. Let the player know some basic information, but leave it up to them to ponder the details. If this sort of balance is present throughout the game, then any number of "video gamey" elements can be implemented without worrying about whether or not they're realistic or even plausible.

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Kaskaum said:

But marines including Doomguy in Doom classic use some green suit with a helmet:

http://uac-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/doom_guy_speedpaint_by_gausswerks-d4lzm8d.jpg

Doomguy even tough his face is shown in the game UI, when D2 ends and shows all monsters, and their deaths, the Doomguy is there with a helmet, so during all the time in game he was covering his face. If they follow it in the new Doom and wear doomguy with a similar green suit, it would be close to Halo's Master Chief suit:

http://computingforever.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/halo-5.jpg

Or Dead Space's suit:

http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/full/art-Dead-Space-awesome-488005.jpeg


Yeah, but his helmet isn't going to be on all the time most likely. Doomguy's face should look just like the face in Classic Doom as homage to the originals.

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dew said:

This is the perfect >9000 autistic nerd rage distilled into a quote. I'm soaking it in with all my senses, I hope keyboards have been smashed during typing it out. Much respect!


Did not smash my keyboard, and I did not rage either. I merely stated my reasons and opinions against liberalism on a keyboard. It's time for nationalists and socialists worldwide to unite.... against the bourgeois liberals and conservatives. Anyway, back on topic I am glad Goatlord has come to the rescue and also the DOOM Marine is integral to DOOM itself.

So yes it does matter.

DOOM isn't supposed to be some PC shitstorm to satisfy all of those damned liberals. DOOM is DOOM and that's the end of it. I'm sick of people trying to make modifications to DOOM and make it something it isn't.

DOOM is basically about one marine vs Hell. If they can capture this feeling very well and combine the fast-paced gameplay of the original but still keep the overall feeling of loneliness then I would be happy.

By all means I would be overjoyed if DOOM 4 was a sequel to DOOM 64.

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Doomguy777 said:

DOOM isn't supposed to be some PC shitstorm to satisfy all of those damned liberals.

The only person making a shitstorm here is you. Girls appearing in Tough-Guy Video Games are threatening to your fragile manhood. We get it. You can stop now, really.

DOOM is DOOM and that's the end of it. I'm sick of people trying to make modifications to DOOM and make it something it isn't.

How quickly we change.

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Hey id, please make Doom's protagonist a single mother looking for her children, tia

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Doomguy777 said:

Did not smash my keyboard, and I did not rage either. I merely stated my reasons and opinions against liberalism on a keyboard. It's time for nationalists and socialists worldwide to unite.... against the bourgeois liberals and conservatives. Anyway, back on topic I am glad Goatlord has come to the rescue and also the DOOM Marine is integral to DOOM itself.

So yes it does matter.

DOOM isn't supposed to be some PC shitstorm to satisfy all of those damned liberals. DOOM is DOOM and that's the end of it. I'm sick of people trying to make modifications to DOOM and make it something it isn't.

DOOM is basically about one marine vs Hell. If they can capture this feeling very well and combine the fast-paced gameplay of the original but still keep the overall feeling of loneliness then I would be happy.

By all means I would be overjoyed if DOOM 4 was a sequel to DOOM 64.


Why are you so mad about someone being able to make their Doomguy black?

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kmxexii said:

Hey id, please make Doom's protagonist a single mother looking for her children, tia

Look after the kids AND buy all your ammo from the income of a waitress. Do the federal welfare ammo stamps still feel like a handout to you, tough guy?

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dew said:

Look after the kids AND buy all your ammo from the income of a waitress. Do the federal welfare ammo stamps still feel like a handout to you, tough guy?


In the future, there is no welfare. Earth's surviving women band together, designating caregivers, protectors, mechanics, farmers, foragers, and more roles, in a society that has little need for men

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Yes, but you know men and their lust for power over all the other sexes on the spectrum. The most stubborn right-wing misogynists have banded together and founded the UAC corporation to spread patriarchy on Mars (where else, just look at the disgusting sign for that planet). And as we know, it ended with an invasion of Hell, like everything men ever did.

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esselfortium said:

The only person making a shitstorm here is you. Girls appearing in Tough-Guy Video Games are threatening to your fragile manhood. We get it. You can stop now, really.


How quickly we change.


You beat me to it.

As a Doom fan, I feel embarrassed to think anyone reading that spittle would get the impression we're all that insecure.

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UAC has a lot of marines under its command. As well as in real life we have a huge number women soldiers in some countries, why can't UAC have women marines too?

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I'm personally only against a black/female main character when the original was white if it's forced and unnecessary. It would elicit the same kind of confusion as a Chinese Batman. Is there anything wrong with a Chinese Batman? No, but the idea is so arbitrary as to require justification. A non-white male protagonist wouldn't stop me from playing a new Doom, but it would come off as confusing, at the very least.

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GoatLord said:

I'm personally only against a black/female main character when the original was white if it's forced and unnecessary. It would elicit the same kind of confusion as a Chinese Batman. Is there anything wrong with a Chinese Batman? No, but the idea is so arbitrary as to require justification. A non-white male protagonist wouldn't stop me from playing a new Doom, but it would come off as confusing, at the very least.


Yea I'm totally on board with what you're saying, but holy fuck is he taking it to the extreme. Someone please keep him going though, as uncomfortable as it is reading it it's still entertaining. Kind of like a movie that's so bad you have to keep watching it.

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The only one game I remember where a character in it which was originally white and male was turned black and female was Blood 2.

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GoatLord said:

Are my ears burning? Anyway, Touchdown made some interesting points about the new Doom and realism, but I have to say that I disagree with the idea that it would disrupt gameplay to have explanations. When I imagine the Doom guy wearing a powerful combat/battle suit that enhances running, and being able to store weapons and lots of ammo because everything is compact and foldable, it doesn't feel excessive to me. No one would have to actually come in and explain these things. You could just see them happen, and infer from the visuals. That sort of technology is likely to exist in the future, anyway.


I would find it distracting. I think it's totally unnecessary. Unless the questions force themselves out, don't answer them.

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kmxexii said:

Hey id, please make Doom's protagonist a single mother looking for her children


I know it's a joke, but that actually isn't a bad angle for a personal story. A great opportunity to juggle some modern issues with parenthood, being a single mother, loneliness, helplessness, distrust. It would go well against the backdrop of an invasion from hell, juxtaposing the internal conflicts of the character to the external situation. You know, like "real" stories do :)

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They did this in Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs (except you were a father) and I can say it's a bad idea. The problem is that unless you're a parent, preferably the one whose children went missing at some point, there will be a serious disconnection between the player and the protagonist. Being a parent is something that you have to experience to be able to relate to on a player-character, role-playing level.

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You don't have to have been in the *exact* same position as the character to be able to relate. If you have it will be all the more strong, sure, but there is much more to it than simply missing a kid. It's a whole array of different emotions that work well in such a setting. I've never had children, but the Last of Us worked great for me becuase it doesn't just play on the one string. His character is defined by the initial loss, but the way he goes about trying to replace his loss will strike a chord with most people - parents or not. Either way, it doesn't have to be the player character's child that went missing. You could be the person who stopped to help out. Something like this isnt a specific emotion, it's an array of issues that will evoke a palette of emotions. Some you will recognize, some you won't.

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Obviously there's an element of subjectivity. However this particular scenario seems like something that might just not work for a lot of people regardless of how well it's presented. It's complex. It takes a while to establish a successful 'relationship' between the player and an in-game character. Unless you play your cards perfectly, the ambitious idea might backfire. If you fail to struck a chord with the player, you lose the player-character synchronization (case when the character's behaviour or motivations are alien to the player) and this often pulls them out of the experience.

However there's also the problem of what kind of player are you. Adrian Chmielarz wrote a blog post about it (I'll try to find it) but an extremely simple version is that there are two types of players: role-players and observers. For a 'role-playing' gamer it's very important to BE in the shoes of their avatar, they want their character to be their reflection. As a result, when the sync fails, it hurts the experience for them. For 'observers', the player-character sync is not so important because they are primarily engaged by what happens in the story and are not too concerned about role-playing the character.

Bottom line is that if you're more of an observer, you can appreciate the story like this as long as it's well presented. If you're a role-player, it's much harder because unless the game pulls you towards the subject in a perfect player-character sync, it just becomes something you're not happy with. Or something you can't relate to.

So it's not black and white obviously. I'm just saying that for someone who wants to BE in the situation (like me) it's very easy to break the immersion by having situations that are somewhat hard to relate to.

a note: worth saying that it's not just 'role-players' and 'observers'. any mix of the two with different proportions is possible. different players may forgive different levels of player-character desynchronization. And so on and so forth.

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