Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
kristus

Hexen: Edge of Chaos Update

Recommended Posts

It's a shame to see it die. But completely understandable for you to drop it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

@Caffeine Freak

 

Jesus Christ, this whole ordeal seems so depressing. A decade of work...

 

On the flipside, I'm sure you learned a lot from it.

 

@printz

 

I agree, it felt like a HD remake of Hexen but somehow felt dated at the same time, and not quite in a good way.  Like the design of the game was at odds with the technology. I imagine this is one of the reasons people got bored developing it. I think the appeal of many, if not most 90s shooters is intimately tied to the technology they were built on and their unique limitations. If you want to bring these games into the modern era then you HAVE to somehow update them while still preserving what the games were all about.

Edited by DooM_RO

Share this post


Link to post

@Caffeine Freak: I'm very sad that you couldn't get it finished. I know it is a massive project, and I am very impressed with the demo! It is a beautiful work of art! Sure, it has bugs, like every worthwhile endeavor. It really is too big of a project to build and release for free, simply because a project like this consumes so much time that it becomes a full-time job, and your team has to eat and pay bills!

 

I'm not trying to push, or anything. I'm just saying that I'd gladly shell out $50 or so for a polished version, and maybe again for a sequel. There's lots of talented, unemployed artists, level designers, and programmers out there, and I'd like to see you rewarded for your efforts. Just curious: Would you want to see it through, with some funding and with an enthusiastic team? (You might need to change it to your own IP, vs "Hexen", though).

 

It's an impressive demo - I want more!

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

@DooM_RO and @printz Yeah, I could feel depressed about the project halting, but honestly I've not felt quite as sad about it as I would've expected. I learned a great deal and became a better artist and designer in the process. The levels in the demo release look so much better in their latest internal build version. Christ, I didn't even know how to terrain model back when we did the demo release. Almost all the terrain in the demo is just patch meshes. I'd cringe if I looked at it today.

 

Anyway, the truth is that during the last year or so that I worked on it, I enjoyed it a whole lot less. Part of that was simply because of the art and design problems I mentioned earlier, and knowing in the back of my mind that even if I did push ahead to a second release, I'd be deeply unhappy about certain aspects of the finished product.

 

On the aspect of design and what you mention about it trying to be too much like Hexen 1, that was a definite issue. Hexen 1 was our main point of reference, and because of engine limitations as well as the fact that we didn't have near the monster variety in play as Hexen 1, we couldn't replicate the better aspects of the combat. When you stood back and looked at it, the combat in the game was fundmentally broken. You had the player fighting Ettins 85% of the time, which were weaker than the originals. That wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue, except our world design favored far more open, expansive areas as opposed to Hexen 1's narrow, cramped corridors. So a lot of the time, the Ettins were basically blades of grass waiting to be cut down. The Afrits helped alleviate this problem, but were weak as well, and their projectiles had a real tendency to fuck performance in wide open areas. Using the two monster types in conjunction with each other was tricky, as neither were particularly well-optimized (especially the Ettin), and performance quickly started to take a dive if you had more than 4-5 of them on screen at once. There was the Hellion(the little Zergling creature) of course, but the hitbox on him was all screwed up, and he made the most pathetic noises. I hated even putting him in levels. And again, you always circled back to the engine limitations. Having 6 or 8 enemies on screen in id Tech 1 is no big deal, they're just animated sprites navigating simple sector geometry. Doing the same thing in id Tech 4 is, well, a very different story. And all of that adds up to another reason I felt dissatisfied with the project towards the end; I always had less fun playing it than I did other stuff I was working on.

Edited by Caffeine Freak

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, kb1 said:

@Caffeine Freak: I'm very sad that you couldn't get it finished. I know it is a massive project, and I am very impressed with the demo! It is a beautiful work of art! Sure, it has bugs, like every worthwhile endeavor. It really is too big of a project to build and release for free, simply because a project like this consumes so much time that it becomes a full-time job, and your team has to eat and pay bills!

 

I'm not trying to push, or anything. I'm just saying that I'd gladly shell out $50 or so for a polished version, and maybe again for a sequel. There's lots of talented, unemployed artists, level designers, and programmers out there, and I'd like to see you rewarded for your efforts. Just curious: Would you want to see it through, with some funding and with an enthusiastic team? (You might need to change it to your own IP, vs "Hexen", though).

 

It's an impressive demo - I want more!

 

If I were to do it today, I'd restart the entire project from scratch and use a more modern engine. The problems I detailed above would be the big reasons for that. Getting people who are a) experienced with the Doom 3 engine and b) dedicated and reliable is too much of a hassle. I'd rather take the time to restart the project on something like UE4 or Source 2. That would be if I had the time available, which I currently don't. Even then, I'd be skeptical about finding people dedicated enough to see it through. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

If I were to do it today, I'd restart the entire project from scratch and use a more modern engine. The problems I detailed above would be the big reasons for that. Getting people who are a) experienced with the Doom 3 engine and b) dedicated and reliable is too much of a hassle. I'd rather take the time to restart the project on something like UE4 or Source 2. That would be if I had the time available, which I currently don't. Even then, I'd be skeptical about finding people dedicated enough to see it through. 

 

Why not make your own commercial Hexen-like game? That way you wouldn't have to worry about team loyalty. Besides, there are just tons of very talented people on Doomworld or QuakeOne that know the game and the design of 90s shooters inside-out. You have learned a lot from this and there are no games out that that capture the unique dark-fantasy flavor of Heretic/Hexen. Sure there are games that are vaguely similar such as the souls games or Amid Evil but Heretic/HeXen have their own very unique spin on the genre. Games like this are making a huge comeback these days and you could put that knowledge to good use.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

If I were to do it today, I'd restart the entire project from scratch and use a more modern engine. The problems I detailed above would be the big reasons for that. Getting people who are a) experienced with the Doom 3 engine and b) dedicated and reliable is too much of a hassle. I'd rather take the time to restart the project on something like UE4 or Source 2. That would be if I had the time available, which I currently don't. Even then, I'd be skeptical about finding people dedicated enough to see it through. 

That's where the funding comes in. If you *did* have the time, and you wanted to move forward, your demo is more than enough to secure some immediate pre-release funding. Then, you could hire employees - pay them some pre-release wages, with an option on a share of the profits. The money helps with the dedication and reliability, of course.

 

But, managing everything becomes a lot more tricky when money's involved, and it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Anyway, thanks for the demo! I think it would be very nice in the Doom 3 engine, but I've never tried to mod with Doom 3 either.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, kb1 said:

That's where the funding comes in. If you *did* have the time, and you wanted to move forward, your demo is more than enough to secure some immediate pre-release funding. Then, you could hire employees - pay them some pre-release wages, with an option on a share of the profits. The money helps with the dedication and reliability, of course.

 

But, managing everything becomes a lot more tricky when money's involved, and it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Anyway, thanks for the demo! I think it would be very nice in the Doom 3 engine, but I've never tried to mod with Doom 3 either.

 

He would be sued to kingdom come because of the HeXen title and resources.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, kb1 said:

That's where the funding comes in. If you *did* have the time, and you wanted to move forward, your demo is more than enough to secure some immediate pre-release funding. Then, you could hire employees - pay them some pre-release wages, with an option on a share of the profits.

 

In the event I managed to 'secure some funding', it would be something like a couple hundred bucks on Patreon, (maybe) and nowhere near in the neighborhood of being enough to pay employees for whatever years of work they would end up putting into the project. 

 

There isn't anywhere close to being enough interest in an 8 year old demo on a dated engine to garner the kind of funds that you're talking about. And if I did go through with the project, it would be because I wanted to do it, not because I'm interested in making a few bucks.

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

Why not make your own commercial Hexen-like game? That way you wouldn't have to worry about team loyalty. Besides, there are just tons of very talented people on Doomworld or QuakeOne that know the game and the design of 90s shooters inside-out. You have learned a lot from this and there are no games out that that capture the unique dark-fantasy flavor of Heretic/Hexen. Sure there are games that are vaguely similar such as the souls games or Amid Evil but Heretic/HeXen have their own very unique spin on the genre. Games like this are making a huge comeback these days and you could put that knowledge to good use.

 

Would be a great idea, if I had the time and resources to devote to it right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

He would be sued to kingdom come because of the HeXen title and resources.

Which is why I said "(You might need to change it to your own IP, vs "Hexen", though)."

 

11 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

In the event I managed to 'secure some funding', it would be something like a couple hundred bucks on Patreon, (maybe) and nowhere near in the neighborhood of being enough to pay employees for whatever years of work they would end up putting into the project. 

 

There isn't anywhere close to being enough interest in an 8 year old demo on a dated engine to garner the kind of funds that you're talking about. And if I did go through with the project, it would be because I wanted to do it, not because I'm interested in making a few bucks.

Really? I would think a lot of people would chip in (I certainly would!). And, I didn't mean to suggest that you would be doing it for the money. The money is the vehicle that would allow people to devote their "job time" to this job instead. Not to get rich - instead, making enough money to pay the bills, freeing up your team's time to make time to work on the project, especially for artists and devs that are not currently employed.

 

To me, the term "dated" doesn't mean a lot. I don't see a lot of modern games that look that much better than your demo looks, honestly. I think you guys deserve more credit for what you've created. And, I've seen projects get funded with a lot less to show.

 

Anyway, I respect your decision, and I understand. I just wanted to say that I think you've really got something valuable there, and it's a shame to see it not reach its potential.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@kb1

 

A name change would not be enough. Too much infringing content. Plus, the engine is very dated and only works really well for sci-fi environments. For anything other than that it's really kind of terrible. 

Share this post


Link to post

I think the Doom 3 engine is still potentially suitable for that type of game, as it powers the Dark Mod which has environments that remind me of Hexen's.  But I can certainly relate to the problem of creating an ambitious mod only to develop considerably as a mapper as you go along and then be somewhat dissatisfied with the product that has developed.

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

@kb1

A name change would not be enough. Too much infringing content.

I never suggested doing just a name change.

 

13 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

Plus, the engine is very dated and only works really well for sci-fi environments. For anything other than that it's really kind of terrible. 

Clearly, this is an opinion. I saw the demo, and was impressed. What else is needed?

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×