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First version of Darkening E2?

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Apparently it has much better music than the 1.1 version of Darkening 2... Does anyone here have a link for it that I can download? I'd really like to try it out, as IMO the only downside of Darkening 2 was the music. :P

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I don't have it, but if the authors changed it, it's for a reason under their prerogative, so I see little point in encouraging or allowing the distribution of the old version.

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myk said:

I don't have it, but if the authors changed it, it's for a reason under their prerogative, so I see little point in encouraging or allowing the distribution of the old version.

What's wrong with redistributing historical versions?

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If they ever saw an official release, nothing at all! Since they normally come with a text file allowing redistribution this can't be taken away retroactively.

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Gez said:

What's wrong with redistributing historical versions?


I question this too. I'm convinced that whether it be unfinished or not meeting the standards the original creators wanted, that to create something of such high quality, anything they had created prior to that still has value.

I still have the very VERY early versions of UAC Ultra way before Super Jamie and I worked on it together. It features the music I decided not to include, my early attempts at making textures, bad recolors and several maps that are good and bad in different ways. I'd be happy to share if anyone is interested, just as the Doom Alpha and beta versions are available for download.

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myk said:

I don't have it, but if the authors changed it, it's for a reason under their prerogative, so I see little point in encouraging or allowing the distribution of the old version.


better delete Doom v1.8 down, then!

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I tend to use older versions of programs or files myself, mainly for practical reasons, such as finding software that runs on my system or to go with a demo that requires the older WAD, and also do collect some things for historical reasons when that warrants it.

But for sheerly aesthetic preferences? Aside from commercial interests, copyrights are there to shape and defend the character of works.

If you don't like the music, just change it to something you like, instead of trying to get the version with music the authors removed for aesthetic, moral or other copyright reasons. (I very much doubt it was for technical ones.)

Graf Zahl said:
Since they normally come with a text file allowing redistribution this can't be taken away retroactively.

The authors still have full rights to their work, including the right to get it removed from public interfaces. The author's word overrides or clarifies what it says on the text file. Naturally, the law wouldn't apply liabilities against users of a file distributed with a "you may distribute" notice, except measures to force them to remove the file or the like.

This is why if someone asks Ty to remove a file from idgames he'll do so even when it says "you may freely distribute this file." If a file were to say permissions aren't retroactive, such as the GPL does explicitly, it would be different. A free software license makes a work free from the author, as well, but default copyright takes a minimalist approach and is still subject to the author's whims.

40oz said:
I question this too.

What you said is essentially that these matters should be resolved according to what you would do as an author, but your preferences do not apply to other authors. The usual practice is to simply ask the other guy "is this okay with you?"

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myk said:

This is why if someone asks Ty to remove a file from idgames he'll do so even when it says "you may freely distribute this file." If a file were to say permissions aren't retroactive, such as the GPL does explicitly, it would be different. A free software license makes a work free from the author, as well, but default copyright takes a minimalist approach and is still subject to the author's whims.


It's typical (and not at all surprising) that you take the 'the author is God' standpoint here.

However, if something comes with a 'You may distribute this file...' clause attached the author may have a hard time stopping people from
doing so. After all, 'you may distribute this file...'

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So, if someone is looking for Darkening 2 v1.0 so as to play a demo recorded for that version, it's alright and it is a worthy endeavor to help him in that noble quest; but if he is looking for it because he wants to compare the music used in both versions, then it's a horrible lack of respect for author's rights and he should be hindered in his efforts?

How do you conciliate the author's clearly-stated viewpoint that Hacx 1.1 is obsolete and no longer distributed with your request not to replace the old version with the new on idgames?

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Wow, I really thought we were better than this. Someone just find the old version of The Darkening E2 so this thread can end on a good note.

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Graf Zahl, that idea that an author is the "god" of his creative work isn't exactly mine. It's what copyright establishes.

Gez said:
So, if someone is looking for Darkening 2 v1.0 so as to play a demo recorded for that version, it's alright and it is a worthy endeavor to help him in that noble quest; but if he is looking for it because he wants to compare the music used in both versions, then it's a horrible lack of respect for author's rights and he should be hindered in his efforts?

As you can see on my previous post, what I said about the music is because it clearly changes creative aspects of the WAD. I'm saying historical purposes and technical issues can be good premises for fair use, while "I don't like the music gimme the other version" is not just, as you put it, "comparing the music".

What is there to conciliate?

First off, I had not read that page previously, as apparently it didn't exist when I made the post you're referring to, and what I stated previously was, as you yourself say, a request due to the usefulness of the WAD and never meant to imply I would have in any way opposed any action by the author to remove v1.1 from idgames.

Secondly, that page does not say it won't be on idgames or available anywhere anymore but that it won't be on (or linked on) the Hacx site. If Nostromo and the team want to put v1.1 off circulation for some reason, I would recommend not doing so at least to allow users to watch old demos, but I am in no position to tell them what to do with the file, ultimately, and would support whatever decision they make.

I hope that clarifies this.

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myk you're pretty much just a hypocrite, saying it's ok if one wants something for the reasons that you want it, but if someone wants it for different reasons thats WRONG. It's ok. You can embrace your hypocrisy. Also an abusive mod. Deleting posts that dont agree with you. Thats classy. And don't embrace that.

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John Smith, I'll ignore part of your post as you've read the FAQ and you saw the post. And heh, you edited your post, now actually going for some kind of justification for what you said. Good!

It's not just about "what you want". Like I said, the music is a creative part of the work. Assuming a WAD had creative differences, it'd give one more reasons to ask the authors about an older version, if it were needed for demos or any other necessity.

Hate me if you want because my copyright expectations are pretty anal, but a hypocrite? Not particularly and usually less than most people, even to a fault.

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myk said:

John Smith, I'll ignore part of your post as you've read the FAQ and you saw the post. And heh, you edited your post, now actually going for some kind of justification for what you said. Good!


Last edited by myk on 11-06-10 at 18:21

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Could we get back to the OP's point and stop philosophing about what's "right" and "wrong" all the time? Or go right into drama for the sake of drama?

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If anyone has the old version, I'd like to hear the original music, as well, and would be more than happy to give it a permanent home.

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Stupid question, how would one know if they have the old version? I see nothing in the txt file about a version number.

It turns out I do have the original version. Wow I'm fucking cool for once. I'll be sending it to The Green Herring for hosting so y'all can check it out.

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True enough, I've got ver 1.0 of The Darkening EP2 up now.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6650582/darken2_v1-0.zip

In regards to the soundtrack, which is what the opening post asked about, the following is different from ver 1.1, the version on the archives:

  • There is no title, intermission, or text screen music.
  • MAP03, MAP08, MAP10, MAP13, MAP16, MAP19, MAP21, MAP22, and MAP23 have entirely different music. MAP03 uses a song that would get moved to MAP13 in v1.1, MAP08 uses the same music as MAP18, MAP10 gets the same song as MAP20, MAP13 features the same song as MAP01, MAP16's music is the same as MAP04's, MAP19 has the same music as MAP15, MAP21 uses the same song as MAP14, and MAP22 and MAP23 both have the same music as MAP12.
In general, it matches the tracklist Kniggit posted on his website when the WAD was originally released.

I look forward to Andy putting it in a more permanent location. :) Thanks to Use3D for finding this!

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I'll be honest, I never knew there was an older version of this WAD, interesting stuff.

On a semi-related note, anyone think UAC Ultra is what a Darkening 3 would of been like?

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Awesome! Thanks a lot Use3d, and The Green Herring. :)

myk said:

As you can see on my previous post, what I said about the music is because it clearly changes creative aspects of the WAD. I'm saying historical purposes and technical issues can be good premises for fair use, while "I don't like the music gimme the other version" is not just, as you put it, "comparing the music".


In all honesty, I know my opening post was poorly worded and half assed, I apolagise (I need spell check damn it) for that, but I just wanted to check out the playlist. As a midi nerd, I couldn't help but start getting very curious to hear the old soundtrack, especially when I saw comments on idgames complaining about how the old music was "so much better" than the new music.

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That is a very cool site, Andy. Just took a look at your Darkening Episode 1 review, it's awesome cool how you picked it apart and reviewed it level by level with accompanying screens for each level. I'm looking forward to reading more of your reviews. *bookmarks site* :)

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BurningCadavre said:

On a semi-related note, anyone think UAC Ultra is what a Darkening 3 would of been like?


Actually, it was going to be entirely hell-themed, again with a brand new texture set.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Actually, it was going to be entirely hell-themed, again with a brand new texture set.


The Hell/Gothic textures Ola created for Odium are really impressive.

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The new music in the second release of DE2 was made by S. Woodman. And iirc he is the same guy that filled up the Freedoom music list with a load of plagiarized and ripped material. So with that in mind, it's actually more likely that the second version released is causing copyright infringements rather than the original that only had music by Kniggit.

Anyway. I too dug up the original release of DE2 about a year ago or so for the very same reason as the OP.

Szymanski said:

The Hell/Gothic textures Ola created for Odium are really impressive.

What is the status on that anyway? Last I was involved it was really just AG still working on it. But I recall Ola also posting pics on his page of a map he was working on that IIRC used the resources.

myk said:

Hate me if you want because my copyright expectations are pretty anal, but a hypocrite? Not particularly and usually less than most people, even to a fault.

There is definitely no copyright issue here.

darken2.txt v1.0 said:

You may distribute this WAD, provided you include this file, with no
modifications. You may distribute this file in any electronic format (BBS,
Diskette, CD, etc) as long as you include this textfile intact.

That's a pretty clear cut license to redistribute. No bars held in case of later versions of the wad being made public. You're inventing an issue where there is none.

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Kristus; in previous posts I addressed what you're saying from my point of view (so I can't add anything there). There isn't an issue, anyway, and the issue was invented because I didn't use particularly intelligent wording in my first reply.

As for Sam, yeah, I think his music here isn't very different from his contributions to Freedoom. At least, one sounds like a modified Heretic piece.

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