Stronghold v1.0 released

[Tormentor667]

Infurnus said:
I was just asking if you really felt it was subpar, or if it was just a figure of speech.

In this case yes, compared to the later maps, it's indeed subpar.

Infurnus said:
But I am not asserting any sort of superiority or acting like you're my employee. All I said was that you react a bit strongly, harshly at times, to criticism and such. You have also reacted a bit strongly to me, right in that quote for example.

It's simply that I have the feeling - while reading your posts - that you, and also others, are demanding something and that's exactly not the right way to go.

Anyway, I agree with your last sentence and I actually don't have interest in heating this further up.

Zap said:
If people are complaining across different communities then maybe, just maybe, the problem could be the actual project or the leader. You said yourself that there's drama when Tormentor releases something so it could be possible that he might be the problem instead of the tons of people who bring up issues.

Then calling the project itself as "bullshit", "0/5" or a "waste of time" is a true sign of maturity considering that this is also bashing against everyone else who was involved in this development. Congratulations.

[zap610]

Tormentor667 said:

Then calling the project itself as "bullshit", "0/5" or a "waste of time" is a true sign of maturity considering that this is also bashing against everyone else who was involved in this development. Congratulations.

I never said that was right, but it certainly isn't the core of the problem. Thousands of wads get downvoted with 0/5s but you don't see their authors trying to make World War 3 to show the Internet how wrong they are. Well some do; like CJ. And look what happened to him. I have no idea what happened on ZDoom so I can really only comment on what I see, and all I see is a shitstorm that started from something that happens to just about everyone. Suck it up.

[Snakes]

Just played the final release, and I gotta say, I found the gameplay to be lacking, whether it was redundancy or add-ons that kinda messed up the bala-

[looks at thread]

Ooooooohhhhhh, fuck it.

[Tormentor667]

You know... I just read the reviews on /idgames and that's what I've found so far:

You know torm maps, it is always the same. shit level design, uninspired gameplay [..]

something that has such a weak gameplay aspect

As is a common strain with Tormentor's maps, it has mediocre gameplay[..]

[..]the gameplay is typical torm, hard and unbalanced, totally bad[..]

[..]maps from tormentor with shitty gameplay just as usual[..]

Another "masterpice" from tormentor and co. 0/5

Overrated, poor level design, poor gameplay

[..]typical Torm work[..] boring to play

Just as a little side note: Most of the gameplay has been adjusted by the whole team, especially Carnevil who did a pretty good job on that. I really have the feeling that some people are just complaining because they do not have anything else to do. It looks to me like a "I didn't play it, but hey it's a Tormentor667 project, time for bashing!"

[infurnus1]

Tormentor667 said:

It's simply that I have the feeling - while reading your posts - that you, and also others, are demanding something and that's exactly not the right way to go.

I wasn't demanding anything other than:

Tormentor667 said:

Anyway, I agree with your last sentence and I actually don't have interest in heating this further up.

Okay-

Tormentor667 said:

Then calling the project itself as "bullshit", "0/5" or a "waste of time" is a true sign of maturity considering that this is also bashing against everyone else who was involved in this development. Congratulations.

Tormentor667 said:

Just as a little side note: Most of the gameplay has been adjusted by the whole team, especially Carnevil who did a pretty good job on that. I really have the feeling that some people are just complaining because they do not have anything else to do. It looks to me like a "I didn't play it, but hey it's a Tormentor667 project, time for bashing!"

..wait, what?

[Jimmy]

If those particular reviewers didn't actually try out the project before commenting, then yes, most of that general attitude towards it is uncalled for. But sadly, those kind of reviews seem to be the average case with most /idgames releases. People generally don't bother with feedback at all, just "sucks", "0/5" or "shitty". Even the good reviews are often just "AWESOME!!!!!" or "i want to have your babies 5/5". To be honest, I really don't like the reviewing system the way it is, and I hardly let it impact whether or not I try out the WAD in question - I more often read all the way through its /newstuff before coming to a conclusion of my own.

But Torm, we know you don't like that kind of stuff (and it's understandable - it's hardly constructive criticism). I've already said (or at least tried to) exactly the same thing. But you said you had no intention of letting this escalate any further, so please, let's cut the crap already.

[Snakes]

Tormentor667 said:

Just as a little side note: Most of the gameplay has been adjusted by the whole team, especially Carnevil who did a pretty good job on that. I really have the feeling that some people are just complaining because they do not have anything else to do. It looks to me like a "I didn't play it, but hey it's a Tormentor667 project, time for bashing!"

Maybe a smidgen of truth here, but when there's a common complaint, a la "poor gameplay" then maybe, just maybe, people didn't like the gameplay. Could be because it clashed with their personal view on how a game could play (which, let's face it, could be why they don't like your work in general... not because of you as a person), or it could be due to the fact that, and this is me talking, it felt a bit redundant. I got through the first couple of tiers, but I couldn't bring myself to keep going. The map design was just... meh.

[Use]

Tormentor667 said:

I really have the feeling that some people are just complaining because they do not have anything else to do. It looks to me like a "I didn't play it, but hey it's a Tormentor667 project, time for bashing!"

Or maybe people some people just didn't like it. Oh well.

NaturalTvventy said:

Remember back in the NES days when backgrounds were the same screens repeated over, and over, and over again?

So because 8-bit games were repetitive only for the reason of having very little memory it's ok for Doom levels to be uninspired and generic? I think you're grasping at straws just a little bit here. Also, calling copy/pasting 'level building skills' is funny.

[Craigs]

Tormentor667 said:

You know... I just read the reviews on /idgames and that's what I've found so far:
[string of butthurt inducing quotes]

Just as a little side note: Most of the gameplay has been adjusted by the whole team, especially Carnevil who did a pretty good job on that. I really have the feeling that some people are just complaining because they do not have anything else to do. It looks to me like a "I didn't play it, but hey it's a Tormentor667 project, time for bashing!"

Oh lawdy lawdy, you just don't learn do you. Maybe you should consider taking Infurnus' advice.

[Graf Zahl]

Snakes said:

Maybe a smidgen of truth here, but when there's a common complaint, a la "poor gameplay" then maybe, just maybe, people didn't like the gameplay.

First, this 'issue' comes up like clockwork in any Tormentor project. I can't remember a single of his releases since Sapphire that didn't get shit on. But this is so different that the same thing getting mentioned again in the exact same manner makes it sound like a knee-jerk reaction based on antipathy to Tormentor than actually trying it out.

To make one thing very clear, I'm not a Tormentor fanboy and I mostly agree with all gameplay related criticism. I found it dull, repetetive and completely lacking in anything I like about Doom. But that's not because the gameplay is bad. I just have to accept the fact that invasion style is just not my thing, so time to move on. I also don't like slaughtermaps so I stay away off threads concerning such maps because due to my dislike of the intended goal of such projects I inevitably have nothing constructive to say.

On the other hand though, I absolutely love the mapping that was done here. It's a pity that these fantastic looking maps are used for something I found this boring and tedious.

@Tormentor: I think it's best to ignore the idiots here. The more you post the more you feed their moronic crusade - and they sure won't stop until this thread is lost.

[ALMN]

graf you keep complaining about maturity and all that shit but then you call us all idiots and morons

faggot

[Graf Zahl]

What else should I call some dipshit like you who posts nothing but cheap insults?

[ALMN]

You obviously don't read my posts if all i post is cheap insults.

[D_GARG]

thinking about how people are today; Who gives a fuck anyway?
Or am I wrong?

[punnyone]

Honestly all this nitpicking about detail aspects has gone from being semi-constructive to just plain - going out of one's way to find something that THEY don't like and posting its "faults" and acting like they are king of the world. The zdoom forum posts resulted in that and one of the pictures posted by one of the members of that site was an overtly extreme nitpick that didn't even need to be critiqued, they just didn't like the way it looked for THEM. Enough already! If you don't like the wad, that's fine, just stop trying to be the loudest and most obnoxious voice with your critiques.

[Phobus]

I'll be honest, back when 2003/04 when the project started out I was very interested in what it would be. The maps we made back then were varied in layout, theme and objective, with quite a wide spread in style. Although there were only perhaps 7 or 8 maps around when I was working on it, the project seemed full of promise.

Yet when I came back to playing it after the first RC was out, it had all turned into a homogeny of maps made almost identically to how T667 would make them. Yeah, the variation in theme was still there, and there were these different gameplay modes... but it now all looked pretty much the same. I've seen a review saying this was soulless, and I'd fully agree. The layouts are largely dull and uninspired and the gameplay is a very reptetive, mechanical process that I simply couldn't enjoy.

I do hope I'm not still credited for that map I made back then, as what was done to it stripped it entirely of the soul and life I try to put into my maps. I'd never know I had a hand in it, had somebody not have told me.

There's probably a lesson to be learnt here, about letting people be more creative within a projects confines, but I doubt this will be learnt by any ZDoom community projects.

[Tormentor667]

Use3D said:

Or maybe people some people just didn't like it. Oh well.

I have absolutely no problem with that, even Graf Zahl didn't like it because it's not his taste. Though he made his statemant clear in a considerate way.

Craigs said:

Oh lawdy lawdy, you just don't learn do you. Maybe you should consider taking Infurnus' advice.

It's not the general idgames reviews, it's almost the same attitude here and that's what's so damn annoying.

Graf Zahl said:

@Tormentor: I think it's best to ignore the idiots here. The more you post the more you feed their moronic crusade - and they sure won't stop until this thread is lost.

Unfortunately, yes, time to move on. Thanks for your support anyway!

[40oz]

Hopefully no one else has already said this but as Graf Zahl said, I don't try to seek out these type threads to bitch about Tormentor's mapping. I personally can agree that a lot of screenshots show a lot of uninspired architecture but we can all agree that we've played wads with garbage looks since they are a dime a dozen. I don't see the purpose in calling out Tormentor for that.

Also I'm pretty aware the gameplay is shitty. I haven't played it (160MB for this? Are you kidding?) but I watched some videos and it looked boring as fuck. Players use shotguns and chainguns to take out hordes of imps, demons and hell knights that are more interested in infiltrating your starting area than they are of even bothering to attack you. It took the player like 8 minutes to make any real progress and only had to really dodge like 4 or 5 fireballs per wave. For gameplay that is so long, boring and tedious you better have the most versatile layouts and pleasing design anyone's ever seen, so they set their standards very high to begin with and am not surprised of the shit being flung at them for that.

My biggest gripe with Stronghold in total is that for the things it lacks, it tries to make up for with intensive script sequences, unreal tournament music, new sprites, decorate monsters, dynamic lighting usage, skyboxes, cutscenes, and a "marketing strategy" that calls for posting about it EVERYWHERE every time something Stronghold related happens. That in and of itself is completely contradictory to Doom's initial marketing strategy, in which the groundbreaking nature of the game sold itself via word of mouth and the distribution of shareware. I feel like the members of Stronghold are trying too hard to sell me this mod and it's aggravating me (enough to post about it) when the actual quality of the mod doesn't deserve it at all.

Also the whininess about not getting realistic constructive criticism is getting old fast. You already have a bunch of dick-sucking fanboys so why don't you appreciate that? I honestly think the fanboys are a lot more deserving of this shit flinging than the people that made Stronghold, but when ya come in to defend it like you love it just as much as the fanboys do, you get included in the mix. Maybe if you weren't so suckered into thinking that this unsatisfactory attempt at something that's supposed to blow all doom mods out of the water came to be as you wanted it, you could move on to make better projects instead of trying to prove our honest opinions wrong.

[Use]

Phobus said:

I'll be honest, back when 2003/04 when the project started out I was very interested in what it would be. The maps we made back then were varied in layout, theme and objective, with quite a wide spread in style.

Always enjoyable when you post, Phobus. I was also fairly interested in the concept when it debuted, but the biggest flaw I find with the project is even after the alleged 7 year development (which is a total crock), the thing is rushed. Torm's maps prove it. They could have been sweet if he'd just worked on them for another six months. But he needed to fill up on approval and praise so he just started plopping down sectors wherever and repeating himself over and over just to get it done. He knew there'd be detractors but he also knew his legion of yes-men would eat it up regardless of it's quality.

I also love the 'we worked on it for free so it is what it is.' In the same breath he claims Doom editing is an art and an expression of creativity. So which is it? If you make something for free it can suck and you're not responsible, or is it art and it was made the way you intended with full creative vision? Just a transparent way to bypass anything he doesn't agree with. Torm's projects create controversy for one reason, hes a megalomaniac who is obviously past him prime, his work has suffered at the hands of his own ego. It isn't about Doom anymore, it's just about recognition. Anyone with half a brain can see this.

[phi108]

Vordakk, why did you have to post? This thread had settled down and you turned it into yet another Stronghold flame thread.

Really, I am annoyed immensely by BOTH SIDES of this IDIOTIC argument. So stop posting and stop strutting.

[zap610]

Tormentor667 said:
[Mean reviewers]

...

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

THIS HAPPENS WITH ANY PROJECT!

[Use]

Vordakk said:

Apparently the only thing I was naive about was thinking that anyone posting in this forum is above the mental age of 7.

phi108 said:

Vordakk, why did you have to post?

He posted to save the internets from naughty people hurting feelings. However his vast 'mental age' proved to be insufficient to tackle the meanie problem.

[Spleen]

Vordakk said:

with the knowledge that the creators did everything in their power to ensure that the final release was polished and fun as possible, including the posting of 2 release candidates, how the hell are people flaming this!!!

1) Posting release candidates does not make something automatically better, unless you actually listen to criticism.

2) If they had the desire to do everything in their power to make it better, why are they claiming they want to move on instead of continuing to work on? It feels to me like this project could be better, yet it is being abandoned. Commercial games have deadlines, but when you're working on a hobby project, you can improve on it as long as you want. Abandoning a project is fine since you are not getting paid for it, but claiming it's as good as it can be is a little dishonest.

[esselfortium]

I don't think it's worth releasing Daikatana 1.1 for these little flaws, so stop criticizing it! If I'm not planning on changing it anymore, you have no right to post that you don't like it on public forums!

[Tormentor667]

Use3D said:

I also love the 'we worked on it for free so it is what it is.' In the same breath he claims Doom editing is an art and an expression of creativity. So which is it?

What's so controverse about this? It is a kind of "art" and my expression of creativity, it always was and always will be, I never intend to earn money with that kind of stuff and I never intend to get praised for what I do, so the megalomaniac expression is totally out of place. But honestly Use3D, why do you map? Isn't it for the same reason? Because it's fun for you? Sure it is, and if people like what you have created, doesn't that feel good as well? Doesn't it make you happy if someone tells you that he/she absolutely appreciated your map?

It isn't the most important thing, but I am sure it feels good, and so it does for me. I am glad that some other people also like what I did. On the other hand, I am also glad if people tell me what they didn't like, not that I change things that I have already produced but for things to come that can be improved. Though, I have my life, I have my job, I have friends, I have my hobbies - and Doom is only one of them. There is no need for recognition.

Doom is a hobby, and I already said that a hundred times before: If other people like what I or what we produce, it's simply a bonus for me, nothing more and nothing less, but it's not my primary aim.

When I am working on TSoZD, on HPack or on TCotD3, I simply do this because it's fun working on a map, fun working together with other skilled artists. I don't do this just to get a nice review, to get people talking about it or to get an Cacoward. That's all simply just a gimmick.

[Tormentor667]

Spleen said:
1) Posting release candidates does not make something automatically better, unless you actually listen to criticism.

We did listen, and we incorporated and changed many things. If you have the time (and the files), feel free to compare RC1 with the final release and you will see differences.

Spleen said:2) If they had the desire to do everything in their power to make it better, why are they claiming they want to move on instead of continuing to work on? It feels to me like this project could be better, yet it is being abandoned. Commercial games have deadlines, but when you're working on a hobby project, you can improve on it as long as you want. Abandoning a project is fine since you are not getting paid for it, but claiming it's as good as it can be is a little dishonest.

When we released the v1.0 we simply thought that everything was okay as it is. Sure, there are indeed places that could have been polished, just like areas in STR11 but I never felt like "Oh damn, this looks so ugly, I need to revamp the map". Same goes to the gameplay aspects of the project. I even played this with people who are not common with Doom on a private LAN, simply to see how they play it, if they like it. And well, we played that for over 4 hours, just to get through and it was a lot of fun. Also our betatesters were pleased (people like Rex Claussen, Enjay, people who have already released successful projects), so for us there was absolutely no need to do any further work.

[40oz]

Tormentor667 said:

I never intend to get praised for what I do, so the megalomaniac expression is totally out of place.

Explain your countdown thread.

[Spleen]

Forgot to mention, I consider the copy-paste argument bullshit. If the maps are bad, it's not because Tormentor copy-pasted. Deus Vult map22 is full of copy-paste, and it's still a great map.

[Tormentor667]

40oz said:

Explain your countdown thread.

Reactivating the thread, keeping it up to date, letting people know that Stronghold's out soon. What's so bad about it? Several projects get announcements before their release and it wasn't intended as something to annoy people, more as a reminder - was the staging too much?!

[esselfortium]

Tormentor667 said:

When we released the v1.0 we simply thought that everything was okay as it is. Sure, there are indeed places that could have been polished, just like areas in STR11 but I never felt like "Oh damn, this looks so ugly, I need to revamp the map". Same goes to the gameplay aspects of the project. I even played this with people who are not common with Doom on a private LAN, simply to see how they play it, if they like it. And well, we played that for over 4 hours, just to get through and it was a lot of fun. Also our betatesters were pleased (people like Rex Claussen, Enjay, people who have already released successful projects), so for us there was absolutely no need to do any further work.

And it is your right to feel that way, but critics don't have any obligation to authors. Just because you're happy with it (which, again, you are perfectly free to be; it's your project, and you released it as it is because you were happy with it) doesn't mean that everyone else is required to be. The fact that you're done working on it doesn't somehow mean that people are no longer allowed to tell each other that they don't like it.

It baffles me that you earlier quoted a bunch of reviews talking about bad gameplay and concluded that the only possibility could be that people are out to get you. Maybe a lot of people just have strongly different feelings about it than you? You say you're open to criticism, but your actual actions (from what you've shown to the public, at least) are more visibly based in ignoring or rationalizing it. If someone doesn't like something, it's either "you're only criticizing it because [unrelated reason]" or "I meant it to be that way". The fact that you meant something to be a certain way does not preclude people from disliking it.