Æons of Death discussion thread

[esselfortium]

phi108 said:

Yeah, there has to be a distiction between badly balanced and well balanced randomizers. It's pretty obvious that AEoD is not visually or thematically consistent, but It's debatable whether or not the gameplay is balanced. (I haven't played it enough to know, but it seems like I die way too easily)

Even if the gameplay of a randomizer is moderately unbalanced, the map balance still contributes somewhat to the overall balance, so the work doesn't totally go to waste.

Of course, but I think there's a significant amount of loss when you consider that monsters can't just be categorized as "easy-ish" or "medium-hard" and swapped out for others without significantly changing the resulting play experience.

The type of attack(s), pattern/frequency/speed of that attack, presence of homing missiles or other special behavior, speed and movement behavior of the monster itself, and other attributes all determine how a monster is suited to a given section of map. Replacing it with another monster considered 'similarly hard' is still likely to totally change the dynamic in ways that could easily negate the reason why the monster was placed there to begin with.

And if the replacements in a randomizer wad are kept similar enough in behavior for this to no longer be an issue, what's the point of even bothering with the replacements? :P

[Katamori]

Wow, as I see, Æons of Death divide of the community - according to the opinions

[esselfortium]

Katamori said:

Wow, as I see, Æons of Death divide of the community - according to the opinions

People in a discussion thread have different opinions about something?! :O

[BlueEagle]

40oz said:

Don't even talk to me like you know what purism is

lol you're taking this way too serious, man ^^
btw the doom bible is total garbage

[esselfortium]

BlueEagle said:

lol you're taking this way too serious, man ^^
btw the doom bible is total garbage

I think you missed his point completely.

[Ichor]

I tend to see AEoD as a kind of experiment, and a way to get more experience with decorate. When I first started it, I know absolutely nothing about decorate. Then I used to do make things just to see if I could do it. The ice shield was a nightmare to make, but once I finally figured it out, it led to all sorts of fun new things like the force cube, thunderstorm rune, and those dice. Same goes for monsters and weapons. The Jackbomb (acts like the World's Most Interesting Bomb) is my most favorite out of all of the weapons. It's just so much fun to use. I also tried to make weapons from a certain game as closely as possible. The TNTs and the hornet gun are good examples. And as for monsters...well, if you ever get turned into a chicken by a hellion, you can blame me for that one. That monster seemed rather boring as it was originally.

Of course, there will be critics, and one of the big problems with earlier versions is that you ended up carrying far too many weapons. That's where the weapon limit system came in (the idea came from Blood 2, by the way).

And finally, I haven't been doing much with it since version 5 was released. I'm working on my own project, one with a much more consistent theme to it, heh, and I'll likely use a few of the tricks I learned while working on AEoD.

[Spleen]

Let's assume esselfortium and 40oz are right, and using randomizers does ruin the balance and gameplay of your maps. If your maps are so great, why do some people still prefer playing your maps with randomizers, even in single player? Have you thought about that?

Now personally I prefer to play without weapon or monster replacers period, even non-random ones. But if some people prefer to play with them, then for them, it has something to offer that your maps lack. I would love to know what that is.

edit: Assuming there is balance. I don't see why someone who can't beat Sunder on ITYTD shouldn't play it with weapons mods.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Ichor said:

I'm working on my own project, one with a much more consistent theme to it, heh, and I'll likely use a few of the tricks I learned while working on AEoD.

Is this a (G)ZDoom version of Fury? :P

[40oz]

Spleen said:

why do some people still prefer playing your maps with randomizers, even in single player? Have you thought about that?

Because children are willing to sacrifice "new" for "good"

[BlueEagle]

40oz said:

Because children are willing to sacrifice "new" for "good"

I think you're quite a bit fast with judging people as something lower than you are. Just because someone never made his own mapset for Doom doesn't make him a worse Doomer or a child. And just because some people prefer Doom a different way than you might do, doesn't make them "worse" kind of players.

And saying that your balancing is the best just because you made it seems quite arrogant to me. I have made the experience with almost every project I made that some people will always complain that it's being too easy or too hard, no matter what you do. Balancing a game in a perfect way for everyone is almost impossible and not even the highest paid dudes in the industry get it right.

So when Doom offers the freedom for those players to alternate the gameplay just the way they like - why bother? Just be happy for them that they have found their way of enjoying your maps and carry on. I don't get where's the harm? Are you so bigheaded that you despise everyone else just because they have a different opinion about something? Now that would be really childish.

And btw don't get me wrong on this one, I'm not trying to be offensive and I apologize if it comes across like that, but I just don't understand why this should be a problem for anyone if some players prefer Doom in a different way than most other players do.

[DeathevokatioN]

I see randomizers as the most pointless mods you can make (next to weapon mods). But hey, if other people enjoy them. Cool.

[Mr. Freeze]

40oz said:

STOP HAVING BADWRONGFUN GUYS

I thought fun was supposed to be FUN. Who gives a shit if anyone reaches satisfaction differently?

[Snakes]

DeathevokatioN said:

I see randomizers as the most pointless mods you can make (next to weapon mods). But hey, if other people enjoy them. Cool.

Hey! I can hop on board this train! *Cracks open a beer*

Yep, life is good.

[Ichor]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Is this a (G)ZDoom version of Fury? :P

[Csonicgo]

Ichor said:

I tend to see AEoD as a kind of experiment

And you'd be right. When I see it as an exercise to emulate other weapons to get the skills to make your own, then I can see the legitimacy of this.


However, it is a mixed bag. You said you are too aware of this, so I don't want to bring all that specifics up. But quite a few are proclaiming this as the ZOMG BEST MOD EVAR!1 and to me it just seems like a huge test wad that people can look at and analyse and give suggestions for how to code something better.. but not actually PLAY it and judge it on "art" and other things because... it's kind of missing the point.

It all makes sense now.

[40oz]

BlueEagle said:

And saying that your balancing is the best just because you made it seems quite arrogant to me. I have made the experience with almost every project I made that some people will always complain that it's being too easy or too hard, no matter what you do. Balancing a game in a perfect way for everyone is almost impossible and not even the highest paid dudes in the industry get it right.

I didn't say that at all. I'm referring to every mapper that makes maps that they think is fun for themselves. Mappers don't always make maps purely for the entertainment of others (and if you are, you're doing it wrong). I replay a lot of my own maps because I enjoy them and they are made in a fashion that I can enjoy. Most people post their maps up for download in search of feedback so that they can improve on things they might not of done to the best of their ability. This doesn't have as much to do with me as it does everyone else who makes maps. I'm just citing myself as an example because I do make maps and it hurts to know people are playing them with a mod that insists on manipulating it.

Csonicgo said:

And you'd be right. When I see it as an exercise to emulate other weapons to get the skills to make your own, then I can see the legitimacy of this.

As do I. I think it's great that people like to exercise their talents. But I'd be surprised if the makers don't recognize the flaws in how it is used.

[DeathevokatioN]

Snakes said:

Hey! I can hop on board this train! *Cracks open a beer*

Yep, life is good.

Just had a few myself. After each beer everyones post looks just that bit more intelligent. ;)

[Spleen]

40oz said:

I'm just citing myself as an example because I do make maps and it hurts to know people are playing them with a mod that insists on manipulating it.

Why are you allowed to change Doom by adding new maps to it, but people are not allowed to change your map by adding new monsters? Why does it bother you that much? Have you tried asking them why your WAD isn't good enough for them without weapon/monster mods, as opposed to assuming? Maybe they just find it monotonous and repetitive (possibly because they miss subtle detail that only a seasoned doomer would get), and want to spice it up a bit. I honestly think some of the levels could be less linear, in the style of Curse of D'Sparil e3m4.

Back in 1993, Doom was a revolutionary game. It always frustrates me when I see this contrasting set-in-stone attitude.

Csonicgo said:

But quite a few are proclaiming this as the ZOMG BEST MOD EVAR!1 and to me it just seems like a huge test wad that people can look at and analyse and give suggestions for how to code something better.. but not actually PLAY it

And what does that say about mappers who map a lot but don't play that much?

[Csonicgo]

Spleen said:

And what does that say about mappers who map a lot but don't play that much?

oh, no!... don't open that can in here!

[40oz]

Spleen said:

Why are you allowed to change Doom by adding new maps to it, but people are not allowed to change your map by adding new monsters?

Because Doom came packaged with the .WAD extension and allowed the existence of PWADs so that it could be modified. Id Software welcomed that. I mean, if players of my maps are interested in adding some new monsters, they should probably add some extra rooms and alternate routes to complete the level to reduce it's linearity. How ethical is that?

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Ichor said:

BINGO

Yay, I was hoping after I last played Fury (and hitting the usual engine reliability issues etc.) that it'd get a makeover for next hub 3 onwards...esp as the only thing I can't see being fully recreatable is the skull wizard.

[Spleen]

40oz said:

Because Doom came packaged with the .WAD extension and allowed the existence of PWADs so that it could be modified. Id Software welcomed that. I mean, if players of my maps are interested in adding some new monsters, they should probably add some extra rooms and alternate routes to complete the level to reduce it's linearity. How ethical is that?

Ahh, you're right. Playing a mod with monster/weapon replacements shouldn't be seen any differently from changing levels in the WAD itself.

[40oz]

I don't get what you're implying because I do place the monsters and weapons in the map so I agree with that statement.

[Spleen]

40oz said:

I don't get what you're implying because I do place the monsters and weapons in the map so I agree with that statement.

Nothing, it's just that my original argument seems stupid in hindsight. Sorry.

[Ichor]

Spleen said:

Ahh, you're right. Playing a mod with monster/weapon replacements shouldn't be seen any differently from changing levels in the WAD itself.

The skull wizard really wasn't all that great to begin with. Back in those days, I couldn't add new monsters or items, and sprite scaling wasn't even a concept, and I was working with a really old and almost completely unknown form of Dehacked for Hexen called Hex. That skull wizard replaced the stalkers, which is why you don't see any of them in the game.

I decided to completely redesign that guy and used a really nice variation of the dark bishop graphics instead of the old model rip that I originally used. That combined with some of the skull wizard behavior borrowed from AEoD makes him a lot better looking, and more dangerous.

Other changes include extra weapons, along with all of the old Hexen enemies that have been left out (stalker, wendigo, etc.) will be brought back. I also made a couple of changes to the ettin so now he's a real threat.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

I've said this loads of times before, just putting it in this thread for the sake of posterity.

I don't like ripped resources very much in the sense of AEOD and I'm not very much a fan of randomizers, yadda yadda. You know how it goes.

There is something to be said about the colossal amount of code it probably took to make AEOD; but it just doesn't do it for me.

[Katamori]

I made 2 new videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Q1LCK2Cuk
It's only a gameplay, but the level is so interesting. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS3UYqtR4ws
It's an other thing. A funny glitch, which makes an enemy invulnerable. Fortunately, this enemy's damage is weak.

[zap610]

That looks more complicated than WoW.

[Dco16]

I'm glad someone got some use out of that bunny bomb.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Ichor said:

Other changes include extra weapons, along with all of the old Hexen enemies that have been left out (stalker, wendigo, etc.) will be brought back. I also made a couple of changes to the ettin so now he's a real threat.

Great stuff, Hexen had too few weapons/enemies to start with (which is one thing I tried to solve). Would that be with extra mana types, or will they compete for the same mana types?

(and hands up if you think the ettin has acquired a mace of retribution :P)