Total Conversions - Doom or not?

[Shadowman]

I would like to raise a question - relations of the Doom community to TCs (total conversions). Many people like to make maps, but at the same time a lot of people want to make not just standard Doom maps, but also - to introduce something new into them, by adding new monsters, DECORATE-ive objects, weapons, as a result - creating a different world, in some ways which is distinct from the classic Doom universe. But not always these projects are successful and well-liked - since a lot of Doom players want just "as much Doom as possible", more classical 32-levels megawads, etc. As a result, there is a misunderstanding between TC mappers and players: first aspire to self-expression and creation of something new, while others - more focus on a classical gameplay.
So the question is - are TC's, based on Doom-engine are required (including ZDoom/GZDoom) or not?

[Khorus]

Shadowman said:

But not always these projects are successful and well-liked - since a lot of Doom players want just "as much Doom as possible", more classical 32-levels megawads, etc. As a result, there is a misunderstanding between TC mappers and players: first aspire to self-expression and creation of something new, while others - more focus on a classical gameplay.

Or the TC itself was poorly done or had flaws.

[Gez]

TCs are generally quite popular. Harmony, Urban Brawl, Chex Quest 3, Mega Man 8BDM, all have been popular and critically acclaimed. For older projects, you won't find anyone to diss Batman Doom or Alien TC*, for example.

The only TC that was not successful and well-liked was Hokuto No Doom, and that was in large part thanks to the hilarious attitude of its author, as well as the fact it was a TC without any new map...


(* More of a partial conversion IMO.)

[Phml]

I've always thought it strange to see people doing TCs in Doom rather than other, more modern and viable engines. What's great about Doom, IMHO, is the atmosphere, gameplay and artstyle. If you remove all of these three things while doing a TC, you're left with a very old engine full of strange bugs/quirks and a limited audience. Seems like digging a hole with a spoon when you've got a handful of shovels around you.

[Gez]

Phml said:

I've always thought it strange to see people doing TCs in Doom rather than other, more modern and viable engines.

Actually, modding Doom (at least, a feature-focused port of Doom) is a lot easier than modding a more recent game. Maps are simpler to create (you just have 2D to work with), spriting is easier than creating, rigging and animating models, the simplicity of the base gameplay does not set complicated standards, etc.

This can be seen in other modding communities, as well. For example, the Elder Scrolls modders will all agree that modding Morrowind is in many aspects a lot easier than modding Oblivion.

[DeathevokatioN]

Khorus said:

Or the TC itself was poorly done or had flaws.

[scalliano]

Phml said:

I've always thought it strange to see people doing TCs in Doom rather than other, more modern and viable engines. What's great about Doom, IMHO, is the atmosphere, gameplay and artstyle. If you remove all of these three things while doing a TC, you're left with a very old engine full of strange bugs/quirks and a limited audience. Seems like digging a hole with a spoon when you've got a handful of shovels around you.

I've found that 99.9999999999999999999999 ...

(eight pages later)

... percent of the time TC's for modern engines get shelved before anything substantial is made public (eh, Kiltron?). Doom is comparitively easy to mod and as such, has a much higher completion rate. There's no accounting for tastes, though.

[Phml]

While we're out throwing random numbers, I've found 9 mods out of 10 are total crap. "There's no accounting for tastes" is just a fancy way to say that.

[Shadowman]

"(* More of a partial conversion IMO.)"

Well, it seems that I said a little bit different thing - I wanted to say about not TC's only, but also about partial conversions, where only a part of Doom universe is replaced (only monsters, just some monsters, weapons etc.). Of course, it's really easy to make TC for Doom, than on modern engines, and the result, from visual way of view, is not bad (but, sometimes, it may be slowing-down in the actual game). Nevertheless, it would be interesting to find out, what kind of qualities a partial or total conversion should have from doomer's point of view?
For example, I like very much Tormentor667's UT&T, TCOTD, and recently I've finished Temple of the Lizardmen 2 with pleasure, which I liked for it's atmosphere, despite some mapping errors and too simple level structure in some places.

[TwinBeast]

I think model creating is easier than sprites. If I did sprites, I would do models and then screenshot them.

There's something in Doom that makes me want to mod it everytime I play it or make a level for it, would just like to do some more. Though I already work on a mod with a different engine, so I don't know about that.

I agree that Doom is easier to mod than some newer games/engines. Most of them feel over complicated. I also dislike the modular 3d model block level creation new games seem to be using. I rather make the levels from Doom like vertices/lines/sectors or Quake like brushes/patches.

[Gez]

Jimi said:

I think model creating is easier than sprites. If I did sprites, I would do models and then screenshot them.

Model creating may be easier than sprites. After all, most sprites of the era, when they had dimensions larger than pixel art, were based on models. Id software even used actual physical models, sculpted by their artists. T.v.'s Harmony used the same principle.

But rigging and animating a model? With sprites you can just create a few different poses for your model. With models, it'll be a lot more complicated.

[Xeros612]

I don't think people ought to worry if something is "Doom-like" enough. TCs and whatnot aren't much different from making a separate game (or large scale mod) on another engine, like a lot of games being made on the Quake III engine without being a lot like Quake III (Call of Duty, anyone?) or all the mods you see on Steam that work like separate games on the Source engine. Why should the Doom engine be thought of differently? Due to the simplicity it's easier to mod for, which makes it a likable choice.

[TwinBeast]

Gez said:

But rigging and animating a model?

I also meant that stuff will be easier with models than with sprites, at least to me. Maybe I could draw one sprite, but I would lose my patience trying to animate it, or do it from different directions.

I make a skeleton in some couple hours, rig it to the model maybe take a bit more than the skeleton. Animating some idle, walk, run, attack, pain, death can take some week or so. Though total time for making a complete model can be some month or two, depending how much I go tweak it after it's "done", and I usually have some week long breaks when I do something else.

[kristus]

Rigging the model is definitely the biggest work. Making the model and animating it isn't taking a lot of effort and time. But rigging is a bitch.

Partially of course by that it's fun to make and animate the models. But rigging is mostly a mindnumbingly boring task.

If all your models use the same basic rig though, the rigging process is a rather swift process where you basically just apply a new model to the same bones set up and then do some poly weighting to make sure there's no odd artifacts popping up.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

So the question is - are TC's, based on Doom-engine are required (including ZDoom/GZDoom) or not?

ofc they are, don't be put off by those who don't like them. Admittedly it's a narrowcast audience but it's the same with any Doom mod, TC or not.

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to find out, what kind of qualities a partial or total conversion should have from doomer's point of view?

Depends on the theme, but if it matches the theme well and plays good etc. then it's fine. The essence of Doom (the speed, the hordes all on screen at once etc.) is still going to be there for a partial conversion.

Phml said:

Seems like digging a hole with a spoon when you've got a handful of shovels around you.

Digging a hole with a shovel when you've got a handful of empty JCB's imported from a foreign-language country around you would be more appropriate IMO :P

Actually, modding Doom (at least, a feature-focused port of Doom) is a lot easier than modding a more recent game.

Which is why we have stuff like Paranoid.

[Belial]

I prefer the extreme ends: Doom maps that are at most Boom-compat or limit-removing and TCs that barely have anything to with Doom gameplay (Urban Brawl, LWM's Power Dolls).