Speed of Doom

[Qaatar]

Hellbent said:

It would actually be really cool if we could get permission from the makers of the wad to re-do the monster placement and get rid of all those damn 'pop into existence' monster traps. It ruins what otherwise seems like had the potential to be a great mapset.

I don't want to sound like some elitist and overzealous speedrunner defending one of his favorite wads, but...

I think Joshy had demo recording friendliness for some of the best players as one of his top priorities when making this wad. Therefore, most of these points in this thread are rather invalid, in my opinion. It is this very gameplay of SoD that makes for some of the best demos that I've watched. It's also one of the most popular Boom wads for speedrunners of the last 4-5 years. Make monster placement changes, and it breaks demo compatibility.

[dew]

DeathevokatioN said:

When I look at it as a game, and as a built in set of challenge... then the monsters popping up doesn't become a problem for me...

QFT. also what qaatar said. it's called "speed of doom", not "architecture tourist simulator with monster sightings of doom". darkwave certainly overused the pop up traps and making them turbo would probably look nicer, but hey - it's already a trademark! also sod is immensely popular among online survival players.

[Bishop]

Holy Fookin' crap...

It's very, very hard. I'm playing on "Hey, not too rough" and I died 15 times on Map06. (yes, I counted)

By the name I was expecting another speedrun wad (uhg) but not nessecarily. I can take my time and be carefull for hazards, take out most of the monsters and look for stuff.

It's not the constant suprises and "popping up of monsters" that's killing me, they are fair. there's plenty 'o' moving space and exits to take cover in thoose situations. It's just the massive quantities of monsters sometimes that I can't evade all at once.

The maps so far are total porn though. B-E-A-UTIFUL. Nice scenery, not too bland nor hyper-detailed. Just Right.

I'll see if I can play through the whole thing even on the easiest skill.

All-in-all, for those who haven't played it yet, you better be a preeeety good player =) So imo, no. Popping up monsters I wouldn't go so far as saying that it's the "gayest shit ever" It passes.

[DeathevokatioN]

dew said:

not "architecture tourist simulator with monster sightings of doom".

Haha, I couldn't help thinking of this video when I read that... It'd be funny if someone changed Hellbent's custom title to Dora.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ODIwb0eg4

[The Ultimate DooMer]

This is something that doesn't add up when people talk about difficulty etc. - Doomers as a whole claim to hate modern games yet many seem to prefer maps that are linear, easy, give free weapons/ammo etc. and generally don't require much thought aside from run around and kill stuff...isn't that kinda like modern games?

[Xeros612]

True, but modern games generally have regenerating health and cutscenes, and apparently that makes them worse or something?

[fullmetalvaran33]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

This is something that doesn't add up when people talk about difficulty etc. - Doomers as a whole claim to hate modern games yet many seem to prefer maps that are linear, easy, give free weapons/ammo etc. and generally don't require much thought aside from run around and kill stuff...isn't that kinda like modern games?

Interesting point...

[RjY]

TUD: I think the two are orthogonal, you can still dislike modern games while desiring less obnoxious doom maps.

For example I like Doom because it's so simple. There's no jumping, crouching, reloading, even mouselook is an extra axis you have to control. And also because the player movement speed is so high that I don't get impatient running from one side of a map to the other.

On the other hand to take one example from your post, I prefer maps that give me free weapons - or at least, one free weapon - because killing more than one or two monsters with the pistol is tedious.

[DuckReconMajor]

I <3 pop up monstars

I actually just started playing the wad today. Playing on skill 1 and getting my ass kicked. Got to map 6 and couldn't take it anymore. I'll come back to it later.

esselfortium said:

What do you like? >_>

cyberdreams

[DeathevokatioN]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

This is something that doesn't add up when people talk about difficulty etc. - Doomers as a whole claim to hate modern games yet many seem to prefer maps that are linear, easy, give free weapons/ammo etc. and generally don't require much thought aside from run around and kill stuff...isn't that kinda like modern games?

Ok, I'll humor you're argument...

The 2 wads that you gave cacowards to actually felt way closer to modern games for me based on the fact that they were style over gameplay ripfests, and relied on "innovative" gimmick ideas to draw people into liking them as opposed to having strong gameplay qualities and strong layouts. Isn't that kinda like modern games?

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Strong gameplay qualities and strong layouts are entirely subjective based on one's own views, eg. I think Valhalla was just style and detail over gameplay, so I wouldn't have chosen it...Arcadia on the other hand is one of the most ammo-balanced maps I've ever played, and Awakening (which didn't seem to get noticed much) had a very clever layout and gameplay to match.

Maybe you're still upset that I gave awards to 2 GZDoom wads (both of which were popular too) instead of the 2 runners-up. (neither of which I'd played or even heard of incidentally)

[killer2]

DeathevokatioN said:

Ok, I'll humor you're argument...

The 2 wads that you gave cacowards to actually felt way closer to modern games for me based on the fact that they were style over gameplay ripfests, and relied on "innovative" gimmick ideas to draw people into liking them as opposed to having strong gameplay qualities and strong layouts. Isn't that kinda like modern games?

While I do agree Stronghold's cacoward was really off,I think Unloved is a pretty good mapset.Sure,it may have some gameplay issues here and there,but it is ok for this award in my book.I do agree Revival should have got a cacoward instead of Shithold.

[Khorus]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

...instead of the 2 runners-up. (neither of which I'd played or even heard of incidentally)

Great Success!

[iori]

Bahaha! I think TUD might be getting bored with this whole Doom thing. Sokay, it'll happen to us all eventually.

[DuckReconMajor]

Or maybe he's Doomed so much he wants it to move forward, unlike Doomworld's codgerly, conservative members.

[esselfortium]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Maybe you're still upset that I gave awards to 2 GZDoom wads (both of which were popular too) instead of the 2 runners-up. (neither of which I'd played or even heard of incidentally)

Hi there. Just reminding you that I do in fact read these threads and watch for trollish/antagonistic behavior.

Bye for now! :)

[Phml]

Or maybe he's Doomed so much he wants it to move forward, unlike Doomworld's codgerly, conservative members.

See, what I don't get when you, or other people, say that is most so-called innovative features we see in wads is stuff directly ripped from other games of the 1996-2000 era, stuff that is one decade old. Even worse, that stuff is often used haphazardly, for the sake of doing things "differently", without any consideration about how it works in the big picture.

It's very much moving backward instead of forward if you ask me. For example, if I want to play a story-driven FPS with cutscenes, I've got about a bazillion other games to choose from, most of which will be much better in every aspect than your average Doom mod that will try to do the same thing.

On the other hand I see plenty of orchestrated, more and more complicated fights, layouts, architecture in Doom2/Boom maps. Look at Sunder and compare it to any wad of the last millenium, and tell me this isn't moving forward, at least aesthetically if you can't appreciate the gameplay for what it also is.

Now if this is another ZDoom/non-ZDoom argument (which it is obviously from TUD, but I'm replying to you rather than him), there's a few fine examples of using ZDoom features to move Doom forward just as well. Demons of Problematique 2 stays classic in gameplay while using 3D floors, slopes and scripts to create an immersive experience. In the other end of the spectrum, Action Doom 2 changes everything - even down to the gameplay, turning it into a first-person-meleer and gives a whole new fun experience. Those are two wads that do it right. Tons of others, most others do it wrong.

[Snakes]

I liked Speed of Doom. It overused pop-up monsters, sure, but it was still a fun wad... At least, 80-90% of the time. If I had to knock it for anything, it'd be the maps based on gimmicks that are just plain stupid (MAP24) or that I, personally, don't see the point of (MAP28). As a whole product, I had good times.

I've yet to make Unloved successfully run on my computer, so not comment on that. And shit... this is a SOD topic.

Also, I know you explained yourself hellbent, but this geighest thing... duuuuuude.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

It was a bit unusual in places, some great theming (esp. the techy secret map and the honeycomb hell map) and set-pieces too (esp. the pyramid secret map)...add to that the difficulty and was easily worth a spot in my top 10.

Now if this is another ZDoom/non-ZDoom argument

Not really, I posted my observations about wad difficulty (which was on topic at the time) and get trolled by one who didn't like my caco choices. Maybe I didn't need to troll back but still, it wasnt me who started it.

[Gez]

What's the big deal with pop-up monsters anyway? Why use them rather than teleport or monster closets? I can see two advantages:
- It's fool proof in that the monster will appear once triggered. Improperly constructed teleports can fail.
- It's a nice effect to have monsters emerge out of liquids (lava, water, nukage)

But on the other hand:
* It looks dumb when the monster emerges from a solid flat
* With infinitely vertical actors, it feels weird to be stopped by an actor that's below the floor
* If the pit is large enough for the player to fall into and it was not triggered, it looks very bad

[40oz]

I think the argument about monsters appearing from out of the floor is backed up with the feeling that monsters are being used in a "pop scare" format such as what is used in many horror movie trailers these days, where there's bright flashes and piercing screeching noises intended to startle watchers even though nothing is actually happening in the context of the movie. Or like how Youtube Poop uses flashing colors, amplified sounds, reversed speech, and other lame random effects to squeeze laughs out of the watcher even though it doesn't have any comedic value.

It's just more appealing when monsters appear through an effect that makes sense, such as grabbing a key that triggers a teleport ambush, or a monster closet revealing after picking up a weapon. In many of Speed of Doom's cases, there will be a flat plain of grass, and then monsters. No actions in between. I can't interpret what the situation is supposed to be.

[RjY]

Gez said:
What's the big deal with pop-up monsters anyway? Why use them rather than teleport or monster closets? I can see two advantages:
- It's fool proof in that the monster will appear once triggered. Improperly constructed teleports can fail.
- It's a nice effect to have monsters emerge out of liquids (lava, water, nukage)

Couple more—

• Popups are instant and can't be bypassed by speedrunning. Say you have a corridor and you want the player running down it to be blocked by the sudden appearance of a monster right in front of him. Teleporters always have a slight delay as the trap is triggered and a monster in a holding chamber takes a few tics to walk over the newly-unblocked teleporter linedef, so if the player is running fast enough he'll cross the distance between the trigger line and the destination point before the monster has teleported.

• Popups are less effort to build and maintain. You make one new sector, lower its floor, tag it, add one activation linedef with raise to highest adjacent floor type, tag it the same, you're done. And you haven't broken locality — the trigger line is right next to the trap. Compare that with all the extra sectors and linedefs needed to make a teleporter holding area, and remembering to set all the tags, adding a teleporter destination thing, getting sound into the holding area to wake the monsters, etc.etc. — and of course the holding area is a long way away from the exit point, so you don't have locality, so you have to keep jumping back and forth between two distant locations in your map editor, or be zoomed out so far you can't see to work on anything.

[Hellbent]

I don't like excessive teleporting monsters either, but at least that is 'logical'. Monsters appearing out of nowhere when its obviously purely for the purpose of gameplay and isn't reflective of the atmosphere of the map (ie, it's not a spooky place where things might be expected to appear out of nowhere) comes across to me as cheap.

[Joshy]

Interesting thread. Damn the makers of SoD!!

IMO, I think it's the straightest thing ever (the monsters popping up). 99% man-on-man/woman-on-woman free.

In all seriousness, I've reflected on the megawad, I think Darkwave0000 does overuse them perhaps, but I honestly do not really see the fuss of it. It is hell (the whole experience :P), and hell has no other objectives but get you on your knees while you say your prayers. When I use them, I use them in a style where like for example, what sociologists call a well-known social experiments as 'breaching'. The pop-up monsters for me was to disrupt the player's previous intentions or a habitual intention (not necessarily killing them instantly in an unfair manner). Examples (of my maps) I thought pulled this off well would be Map13, 15, 23, 25, 27. The instant floor-raise can also be seen as an instant teleportation with monsters destined to kick arse. Otherwise, I use them for convenience; raises the difficulty slightly more without the extra fuss of teleportations; the monsters arrive exactly when and where you want them to whereas teleports would have random delays and the monster closets would require space which would be impossible in an area with hardly any space at all.

That is not to say that the megawad is perfect; it isn't, but I am quite happy with what I (and Darkwave) have done with it. DISCLAIMER: This post is full of opinions. The fact that there may be a bias as I've made the thing was overlooked. :P

[WH-Wilou84]

RjY said:

Popups are instant and can't be bypassed by speedrunning.

In some cases you can. Check for example the ending of UV Speed demos on Deus Vult map 04, or TimeOfDeath's recent UV Maxes on Hell Revealed II map 29 ( when he's on the Revenant hill ).
Sometimes the lines can be avoided.

Those monster pop-ups are imho a good way to make monsters appear where and when you want them to, so that they don't move and/or infight too soon ( making them almost useless ).
Just see them as instant teleporters, that's all :)

[Never_Again]

Three linedefs (701, 704 and 707) on MAP23 have the double-sided flag set even though they are single-sided lines with void on the other side. Walking into that dark nook crashed prB+'s software renderer until entryway implemented the MISSEDBACKSIDE overflow workaround.

Isn't this where Doom Builder's internal error checking function comes in handy?

[Joshy]

Never_Again said:

Three linedefs (701, 704 and 707) on MAP23 have the double-sided flag set even though they are single-sided lines with void on the other side. Walking into that dark nook crashed prB+'s software renderer until entryway implemented the MISSEDBACKSIDE overflow workaround.

Isn't this where Doom Builder's internal error checking function comes in handy?

And you're saying this now because?

[Chaindude]

Personally I don't mind the instant monster platforms raising and making the clanking sound. Yeah yeah, it could come off as being "unrealistic" or "silly" but it works for the intended purpose--to catch you off-guard and stop you in your tracks.

A nice compromise could be what was done in Scythe2 and ScytheX, where the platforms aren't instant but rather a quick-yet-gradual raise. The effect looks nice for liquids (lava, water, nukage) and in the solid floors (see ScytheX), the platforms end up becoming a part of the detailing in that particular room. The only downside is that this can be still "too slow" for skilled players compared to the instant popups.

[darkreaver]

So you can go to your room in shame, thinking of what you have done.
Releasing a full megawad not devoid of errors? What has the world
come to!!

edit: ooops that one was for Joshy

[Joshy]

:-( I am extremely sorry this ever happened. I am going to make up for this by making two more megawads!!! :P