Quake!

[Solarn]

Specifically, the original Quake. People here don't seem to like it, but in my opinion, it was a successful transition of Doom's aesthetic and gameplay sensibilities to true 3D. The maps are beautiful and abstract and each episode has its own very distinct style, the monsters are challenging, the speed-based gameplay is the same as Doom's and it's pretty easy to map for. Too bad that it didn't develop an active community on the level Doom did.

[Kirby]

Solarn said:

People here don't seem to like it

I don't quite see what you mean

I am actally currently playing through Mission Pack #1: Scourge of Armagon and plan to play through the second one afterwards

[Phml]

I liked (and still like) Quake as a normal game, as in something I'm going to play for maybe a few dozen hours and move on, but there's several things that keep me from enjoying it as much as Doom :

- too much jumping (and jumping puzzles). I don't mind it as an occasional thing, but strongly dislikes jumping when it's part of the core gameplay.
- brown and blocky. The cast of foes didn't have as much contrast or character as in Doom, and early 3D models certainly didn't help.
- weapon feedback dissonance. The weapons in Quake felt a lot stronger, but the monsters took more or less as many shots as in Doom to fall down. It just ended up being weird.
- no hordes. You're lucky to fight more than 7-8 monsters at a time in Quake.
- no BFG equivalent. The BFG is the most interesting weapon in Doom imho, and the lightning gun just didn't compare for me.
- boring and unobvious puzzles. Be it obscure multiple switches or having to swim in all directions, I found myself so bored I don't think I've ever finished a single episode of Quake in one go, except maybe the very first one.

... Yeah. Now that I think about it, I find myself wondering what do I like at all in Quake. As a technological leap in 1996 it was quite the thing, as a game in 2011 I'm not so fond of it.

[Graf Zahl]

After playing a game like Duke Nukem 3D Quake felt like a major step back, despite being fully 3D. Technology is not everything. You need to be able to make good use of it.

[Bucket]

When are we starting Quake Night again? Admittedly, last week was the first in a long time I was actually available but the IRC room was desolate.

[Solarn]

Phml said:

I liked (and still like) Quake as a normal game, as in something I'm going to play for maybe a few dozen hours and move on, but there's several things that keep me from enjoying it as much as Doom :

- too much jumping (and jumping puzzles). I don't mind it as an occasional thing, but strongly dislikes jumping when it's part of the core gameplay.
- brown and blocky. The cast of foes didn't have as much contrast or character as in Doom, and early 3D models certainly didn't help.
- weapon feedback dissonance. The weapons in Quake felt a lot stronger, but the monsters took more or less as many shots as in Doom to fall down. It just ended up being weird.
- no hordes. You're lucky to fight more than 7-8 monsters at a time in Quake.
- no BFG equivalent. The BFG is the most interesting weapon in Doom imho, and the lightning gun just didn't compare for me.
- boring and unobvious puzzles. Be it obscure multiple switches or having to swim in all directions, I found myself so bored I don't think I've ever finished a single episode of Quake in one go, except maybe the very first one.

... Yeah. Now that I think about it, I find myself wondering what do I like at all in Quake. As a technological leap in 1996 it was quite the thing, as a game in 2011 I'm not so fond of it.

- Jumping doesn't bother me. It's a major part of truly 3D freedom of movement.
- You're forgetting (like everyone else does) the large amounts of blue and green in the palette. Hell, there was an entire episode dedicated to nothing but blue metal. I think the enemies were well-rounded although visually a bit too brown.
- I'm not quite sure what you mean here. How could the weapons have felt stronger if they performed exactly like Doom's weapons did?
- There were no hordes in vanilla Doom either. In fact, there were more situations in vanilla Quake where you had to fight across a large number of monsters than there were in Doom.
- Well, yeah. No BFG did make the game a little different, but we got grenades instead.
- I... honestly don't know what you are talking about. The main routes of the levels were always very clear and secrets are <i>supposed</i> to be hard to find.

And how come nobody remembers the magnificent architecture? Like the wooden bridges criss-crossing above each other in the Wizard's Manse or the wide corridors with walkways above them in the Palace of Hate or the decaying brickwork revealing metal supports in the Tower of Despair or the entire Ziggurat Vertigo level?

One of Romero's guidelines for mapping for Doom was "making my levels flow so the player will revisit areas several times so they will better understand the 3D space of the level." Nowhere does that hold true more than in Quake, where the 3D space of any level is very complex and you <i>will</i> visit every inch of it.

[Phml]

I don't mind jumping done well, but Quake's jumping isn't done well by my standards. Fridge box rant applies, then there's the lack of body awareness and the clunky physics (bunnyhop anyone?).

Honestly, I don't care much about the actual colors, my point is there's not enough contrast for me to care about or remember anything.

Looks and sounds make Quake weapons seem a lot stronger, while actual effects vs monsters put them on par or weaker than equal tier Doom weapons. Play Doom E1M1 for 30 seconds and use the pistol. Play Quake E1M1 for 30 seconds and use the shotgun. The difference is incredibly obvious for me, Doom pistol feels like a pea-shooter and hits like one, Quake shotgun looks awesome yet hits like a pea-shooter.

Personally I don't recall ever seeing more than a dozen enemies at once in a Quake map. As for Doom? Open E3M4 in your favorite editor, look at sector 100 for example. That's one example amidst many others, but I don't care much for vanilla Doom either way.

Grenades are boring. Again, cool in 1996 when it was new, just a less efficient RL nowadays. I can't believe you'd compare grenades to the Doom BFG.

Good for you, but personally I always get lost in Quake. Part of it is of course related to the above points - lack of contrast and visual landmarks, everything looking the same makes navigation harder.

Can't understand why do you have to attack my opinion so vehemently. You ask why don't people like Quake, I reply why I don't like Quake as much as I like Doom. You're not going to change my mind by playing quote warrior, especially when half of your arguments are objectively invalid.

[Gez]

Enemies are ugly. Far too blocky. Same with Quake II. It's only with Quake III that they reached the level of an even trade-off between the details offered by sprites and the 3Dishness of models. But in Quake and Quake II, it's graphically a step down from the Doom sprites.

Same with Hexen II, though it's not as bad, but Hexen 1 is still more aesthetically pleasing. Heretic II is okay, compared to Heretic 1.

Well, that's it for the look.

[Vaporizer]

.

[Solarn]

Phml said:

I don't mind jumping done well, but Quake's jumping isn't done well by my standards. Fridge box rant applies, then there's the lack of body awareness and the clunky physics (bunnyhop anyone?).

Wallrunning. SR-50. Death slides. Should I go on?

Phml said:

Looks and sounds make Quake weapons seem a lot stronger, while actual effects vs monsters put them on par or weaker than equal tier Doom weapons. Play Doom E1M1 for 30 seconds and use the pistol. Play Quake E1M1 for 30 seconds and use the shotgun. The difference is incredibly obvious for me, Doom pistol feels like a pea-shooter and hits like one, Quake shotgun looks awesome yet hits like a pea-shooter.

Let's just agree to disagree on that one. I don't consider the look and sound of a weapon that important and honestly, the Quake shotgun looks just as dinky as the Doom pistol to me.

Phml said:

Personally I don't recall ever seeing more than a dozen enemies at once in a Quake map. As for Doom? Open E3M4 in your favorite editor, look at sector 100 for example. That's one example amidst many others, but I don't care much for vanilla Doom either way.

That's all fine and dandy, but comparing vanilla Quake to Doom PWADs is unfair and biased. And most of those monsters in E3M4 only appear on hard difficulties. In Quake, there are several areas that on Hard or Nightmare have just as many monsters.

Phml said:

Grenades are boring. Again, cool in 1996 when it was new, just a less efficient RL nowadays. I can't believe you'd compare grenades to the Doom BFG.

They shoot around corners and onto or off of ledges. How is that less efficient? Grenades are awesome. They're no BFG, but they make life a lot easier.

Phml said:

Good for you, but personally I always get lost in Quake. Part of it is of course related to the above points - lack of contrast and visual landmarks, everything looking the same makes navigation harder.

Can't understand why do you have to attack my opinion so vehemently. You ask why don't people like Quake, I reply why I don't like Quake as much as I like Doom. You're not going to change my mind by playing quote warrior, especially when half of your arguments are objectively invalid.

Because your arguments are based on your personal bias against the game. You bring up physics glitches in Quake, but Doom has just as many, and they are cherished by the community. You bring up how the weapons aren't what you expected of them and hold that against them. You bring up how Quake's original maps have less monsters than Doom PWADs, when the same can be said of Doom's original maps. You say that everything looks the same and there are no visual landmarks, which is so wrong that it's hilarious. Basically, you're saying "I don't like it, so it deserves my dislike." You're not even giving it a chance, you're so bogged down with prejudices and expectations.

[40oz]

I don't have quake installed on this computer and I haven't played it for a long time, but I liked how excessively violent it was.

The player sounded like he was being brutally tortured when taking damage, not a short gasp for breath. I liked the blood that splashed everywhere when you blasted zombies with a grenade launcher as early as the third level. A gun that fires nails? Who would create such a ruthless diabolical weapon? Who cares, it's awesome!

My other favorite part of the game was the lighting. I kinda wish Doom had animated radial lighting like Quake does. The best I can do is try to simulate it in my doom maps, which isn't always that hard. I still kinda wish Doom had it sometimes though.

[Coopersville]

It's easily my favourite Quake. I need to play it more.

[Xaser]

I like it. Having only played it recently, I can't exactly commend much of the original id level design (except Ziggurat Vertigo) due to its blockiness and too-abstractness, but it was fun. Damn fun. I've always liked how fast-paced it felt even though monster encounters are a lot smaller-scale than many pwads we've become accustomed to.

For what it's worth, id did show off their use of 3D quite well in the map design. Most maps just lacked a sense of identity to me -- I honestly can't remember which ones are Wizard's Manse or Tower of Despair, much less recall a specific feature from either. Not that I care much, though -- blasting through any given episode is fun as hell. ;)

Lastly, I think that most of Quake's brown-hate stems from the set of enemies. All of them are colored almost identically, and several are variations of the "brown with bloody limbs" style. The designs are still great, though, which prevents the sort of "identity loss" effect the maps have on me.

[printz]

Quake is great like 40oz said, but Doom 3 is better, more mature as a 3d game and can do everything Quake does. But someone has to make the maps to match. No one is moving in that direction, all I see is lame mods done by graphic artists, except for a few rare but still too-short gems...

[Radon]

It's friday, now i'm digging this. Quake anyone? Satuday? Quake anyone? C'mon you bastards.

[Solarn]

Xaser said:

I like it. Having only played it recently, I can't exactly commend much of the original id level design (except Ziggurat Vertigo) due to its blockiness and too-abstractness, but it was fun. Damn fun. I've always liked how fast-paced it felt even though monster encounters are a lot smaller-scale than many pwads we've become accustomed to.

For what it's worth, id did show off their use of 3D quite well in the map design. Most maps just lacked a sense of identity to me -- I honestly can't remember which ones are Wizard's Manse or Tower of Despair, much less recall a specific feature from either. Not that I care much, though -- blasting through any given episode is fun as hell. ;)

Lastly, I think that most of Quake's brown-hate stems from the set of enemies. All of them are colored almost identically, and several are variations of the "brown with bloody limbs" style. The designs are still great, though, which prevents the sort of "identity loss" effect the maps have on me.

Heh. Wizard's Manse is E2M5, with the blue towers with several criss-crossing wooden bridges on the inside. Tower of Despair is E4M2, which I remember because it reuses the BRICK5 texture from Doom 2 in an awesome fashion.

What I think Quake lacks are source ports. The few that exist focus mainly on improving the graphics and to my best knowledge, nobody even tried making a limit-removing source port for Quake, never mind enhancing the engine.

[Varis Alpha]

Quake is the only game of the Quake series I don't own. I have played it though, it's pretty fun. I've even tried to get it multiple times, but failed everytime to do so (DAMN YOU, YOU UNRELIABLE AND STUPID AUCTIONS, YOU).

[Radon]

There's Steam for that?

[Mr. Freeze]

I was always disapointed that Id never made a true sequel to Quake. Quake 2's story and atmosphere are terrible compared to the original game's. I want to run around creepy ancient cathedrals and dark alternate dimensions, not blast my way through generic factory #5745.

[wildweasel]

Mr. Freeze said:

I was always disapointed that Id never made a true sequel to Quake. Quake 2's story and atmosphere are terrible compared to the original game's. I want to run around creepy ancient cathedrals and dark alternate dimensions, not blast my way through generic factory #5745.

Funny you bring that up: the gothic castle maps are my least favorite in Quake. I always preferred fighting through tech base, honestly. =P

[Whoo]

Bucket said:

When are we starting Quake Night again? Admittedly, last week was the first in a long time I was actually available but the IRC room was desolate.

The last few times I've put the server up no one has joined. If people are going to play then I can put one up Sunday night. Energy costs skyrocketed where I live so I cannot leave the server on 24/7. I'll be gone tonight and tomorrow, so I'll check this topic when I get back Sunday to see if there is anyone that will be able to make it, and you might as well throw in some suggestions in either this topic or the QN topic.

[Solarn]

Mr. Freeze said:

I was always disapointed that Id never made a true sequel to Quake. Quake 2's story and atmosphere are terrible compared to the original game's. I want to run around creepy ancient cathedrals and dark alternate dimensions, not blast my way through generic factory #5745.

YES. In fact, Quake's 3rd and 4th episodes show my favourite interpretations of hell (well, hellish dimensions). Twisted metal passages and purposeless, decaying structures for the win!

[PRIMEVAL]

I personally love Quake. I don't exactly know why. I just sort of grew up with the game.

[Use]

Quake is full of win.

[Ralphis]

Mr. Freeze said:

I was always disapointed that Id never made a true sequel to Quake. Quake 2's story and atmosphere are terrible compared to the original game's. I want to run around creepy ancient cathedrals and dark alternate dimensions, not blast my way through generic factory #5745.

I hear what you're saying, but Quake 2 is the best, most well-rounded quake game of the 3 imo. You could blast your way through generic factory #5745 or play Quake 1 and blast your way through generic brown/gray blocky hallway #152.

[Graf Zahl]

For me Q2 was more win than Q1. I'm not the biggest fan of the gothic arcitecture it's full of. Q2 on the other hand did everything right for me in that regard. On a purely aesthetic scale I'd still rank it as my absolute favorite game ever. The enemies could have used some more work though

[negke]

Solarn said:

What I think Quake lacks are source ports. The few that exist focus mainly on improving the graphics and to my best knowledge, nobody even tried making a limit-removing source port for Quake, never mind enhancing the engine.

No way. There are just as many source ports for Quake as there are for Doom. And many of them are not only for graphics; also ones that only fix issues and have technical enhancements but otherwise remain faithful (e.g. Fitzquake). Of course there are limit-removing ports, like Fitzquake085, DirectQ, Bengt Jardrup's GLquake, Darkplaces, the upcoming RMQ engine and possibly some more.

Regarding the monsters, I think the problem is not their blocky models, but rather the jerky movement/animation. I wouldn't want to play the game without model interpolation.

[Grazza]

I liked Quake, and playing it all the way through was a fun experience, but for me it lacked replay value compared to Doom.

The fact that each level was not designed with from-scratch playability in mind was a major factor, and there somehow seemed less variety in the way the game played and looked. This carried through to user-made levels too. Perhaps the fact that Quake 2 was so different meant that the Quake modding community got fragmented early on.

The lack of an automap was a really major peeve too, leading to needless frustration in larger maps.

As for a comparison of tricks and exploitable game physics, Quake certainly has quite a few. See demos on the End map (both Max and Speed) for a couple of spectacular examples. But the variety of tricks frequently used in Quake speedrunning seems smaller than in the case of Doom demos. I've watched a lot of Quake demos, and the vast majority are largely based on boosts from explosions, together with the momentum-preserving effect of bunny hopping. (Like if 90% of Doom demos relied on rocket jumps.) Air control is sometimes featured, and in Max demos telefragging (which is essentially reversed from Doom's) is often important. Bunny hopping (which requires skill to do well) is taken for granted in much the same way that straferunning is in Doom. But maybe I'm doing it a disservice (and it's a few years since I watched Quake demos regularly), and I'm sure a Quake speedrunner could give a fairer assessment.

If you're talking ports, then JoeQuake is one designed to be demo-friendly. Think of it as PrQuake-plus. :)

[Solarn]

neg!ke said:

No way. There are just as many source ports for Quake as there are for Doom. And many of them are not only for graphics; also ones that only fix issues and have technical enhancements but otherwise remain faithful (e.g. Fitzquake). Of course there are limit-removing ports, like Fitzquake085, DirectQ, Bengt Jardrup's GLquake, Darkplaces, the upcoming RMQ engine and possibly some more.

Regarding the monsters, I think the problem is not their blocky models, but rather the jerky movement/animation. I wouldn't want to play the game without model interpolation.

Darkplaces is limit-removing? Good to know. I heard about it, but I thought it was mainly multiplayer-oriented and I'm ashamed to say that I've never heard of Fitzquake. Most of the source ports I knew of have been abandoned for quite a while now and never got really far. And they were mostly graphics-based.

[Philnemba]

The original Quake is easily my favorite in the series not because of its great dark gothicish maps and monsters, but because its default weapon(a shotgun) is actually useful(unlike Quake 2's shitty blaster).

Oh and you got to love the lighting gun :)