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Katamori

Do you like Final Doom?

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I think, Final Doom was a great challange with a new style after Doom 2.

However, I've heard bad critics too. I know a person, who make video game rewievs, and he said "Final Doom recommended for the Doom-fans only"

Heh, in my opinion most of the forum members are Doom-fans, so it doesn't matter :D but I want to write the things that he thought Final Doom bad:


PLUTONIA EXPERIMENT

- dumb story
- dumb map concpets which don't match with the Doom story
- dumb ideas (invisible bridge at the end of MAP03, the all MAP11 labiryth, etc.)
- incredibly hard (Mancubi on MAP01, hidden Arch-viles on MAP15)
- he didn't think Go 2 it funny
- Doom 2 copies (The Inmost Dens <-> NME; Circle of Death <-> Slayer)
- dumb level names (Odyessy of Noises, NME)
- boss fight and ending was the same as in Doom 2
- don't contains any new music


TNT: EVILUTION

- lots of TNT letters on the walls (which was advertising themselves)
- MAP20 name as the same as E1M6 in Doom
- MAP31 yellow key bug
- MAP31 texture glitches while revenants appears in the pyramid
- hiding the yellow key on the level 'Ballistyx'
- trick part at the start of the last level is bad
- boss fight and ending was also the same as in Doom 2 and Plutonia


Do you agree with him? Becasue I think, these things don't make Final Doom bad.

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I personally was way excited and high hopes when i first purchased final doom and was rather disappointed after playing it. But it was only cuz i was so excited i guess it really wasnt that bad. I seldom feel the need to play it though.. years after the ultimate doom and doom II came out, I still love to go back and play through each and every level, but final doom??? mehhh....

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The first time I played Final Doom was in 2005 or so. I'm surprised that many of "that person" opinions make sense to me. Still, I find Evilution superior to Doom2 and Plutonia vastly superior to Doom2.

PLUTONIA EXPERIMENT

- dumb story so what
- dumb map concpets which don't match with the Doom story so what
- dumb ideas (invisible bridge at the end of MAP03, the all MAP11 labiryth, etc.) MAP11 is a brilliant idea. After finishing it the first time, after many, many tries, I found myself in a "normal" MAP12 and... couldn't accustom myself to "normal" gameplay :) Invisible bridge on MAP03 was OK, but that on MAP02 - not really
- incredibly hard (Mancubi on MAP01, hidden Arch-viles on MAP15) Yeah, at first it seems so
- he didn't think Go 2 it funny While I'm really not the enthusiast of lotsa monsters style, this HR predecessor was actually very good, not a fave of mine, but not an annoying map in any way
- Doom 2 copies (The Inmost Dens <-> NME; Circle of Death <-> Slayer) you mean inmost dens <-> neurosphere? also: abandoned mines <-> caged. I was equally irritated at first, now I really don't care, these are not ripoffs, tributes rather
- dumb level names (Odyessy of Noises, NME) so what
- boss fight and ending was the same as in Doom 2 not exactly "the same", but yes, developing something different than Icon of Sin would've been great
- don't contains any new music well, but in MAP11 and MAP21 you have tunes unused in Ultimate Doom levels. The music generally is well chosen in my opinion, so nothing negative

I would also add: difficulty levels too "flat", HNTR is really too difficult. But overall, once I learned how to survive these maps, they became classics for me. "That person" should play a bit more :)

TNT: EVILUTION

- lots of TNT letters on the walls (which was advertising themselves) oh, come on
- MAP20 name as the same as E1M6 in Doom believe it or not, I also disliked it, as well as "System Control", "Power Control" and other names which are too similar to each other
- MAP31 yellow key bug already fixed, so what's the problem
- MAP31 texture glitches while revenants appears in the pyramid I don't know about it, no opinion
- hiding the yellow key on the level 'Ballistyx' I may agree
- trick part at the start of the last level is bad definitely agree
- boss fight and ending was also the same as in Doom 2 and Plutonia QFT


On the whole, too much nitpicking. Did "that person" play Memento Mori, Requiem, Alien Vendetta?

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I despise it for its awful textures(capital crime) and sometimes doubtful detailing.
Played through it via sp and coop on psx and pc with two of my buddies but I always come to the conclusion that it sucks overall.

Despite it's suck it was at the right place at the right time and is pretty well known due to this circumstance + 3 or 4 maps out of the 350 are excellent.

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I don't like Final Doom very much. The two new Doom 2 32-level episodes really don't deserve to be commercial, when you could already find hundreds of levels online for free, some even good (Memento Mori). It would have worked if the guys actually modified the executable so that it would be different and unachievable by cheap hands. Don't bring up the "but Doom is perfect, no point changing it" shtick to me. It's not perfect.

Any review giving it poor rating is justified.

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I actually think "Odyssey of Noises" a cool name. I used to love that level.

But yeah, generally speaking, Doom 2 is better.

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vdgg said:

[1.]"That person" should play a bit more :)


[2.]On the whole, too much nitpicking. Did "that person" play Memento Mori, Requiem, Alien Vendetta?


1.: I think it too :)

2.: As I know, he didn't play any Doom WADs, excepct IWADs

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darkreaver said:

Final Doom rules

I agree too.

TNT had great detail, fun gameplay, and interesting level design. (Despite becoming too varied in maps 19-23 and shitty textures)

Plutionia gave many veteran players a new challenge, and also had great looking levels which are still emulated.

Final Doom kicks ass, and if you can't handle it you should go back to your easy little Doom II levels.

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Doom > Plutonia > Doom II > Evilution, if you placed a gun to my head. TNT's style never caught me as being that distinct or memorable, and aside from maps 01 - 06, 09 - 10 and a selection of catchy MIDIs I'd sooner swim the Nile than give all the levels another run-through. And not only because I could then brag about it to my friends.

Plutonia on the other hand thrashes the life out of most 90's Doom II megawads as far as I'm concerned, including KS, HR and MM. It's style and gameplay are just as firmly lodged into my head as Knee-deep in the Dead is, and it's by far the most consistent of the big four. Having only two people work on the wad probably eliminates most of the management issues though, I imagine.

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meh.

I dont care for final doom.

It extended DOOM2's gameplay, which is what our WADs do, no?

I cant say much bad about it. Somethings pissed me off.

I never played through it all, though....I should get on that.

you can only play through doom2 so many times....ok, ok, I take that back sense I have done it already well over 100 times.

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Plutonia jusy felt more coherent, tbh. I really enjoyed the earthen, dirty feel of all the maps. And the additional challenge was a big plus.

But I'm kinda disappointed with Final Doom as a whole. No new monsters, weapons, only like 5 new textures...it just seems that the package as a whole (2 games worth!) could've added a lot to Doom, and chose not to.

That's also why I consider Doom 64 to be the *real* Final Doom, gameplay AND storywise.

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Now we can look at them as mapsets and make what we will of the levels they contain. In that respect I think both Plutonia and Evilution are at least worthy to be cannon.

Back at the time it was released I was disappointed that there was no new monsters or weapons. 6 new monsters, 2 new weapons over the two wads would be fair value. New textures/music are scant consolation. Plus the fact level designers were farmed in (in retro-spect the were talented enough on the whole) put me off from buying it. It felt like a con.

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If you look at Final Doom as two new full episodes for Doom 2, rather than an expansion pack or a sequel (much like Ultimate Doom was a new episode for Doom) then I see it as a mixed bag. A lot of Evilutions maps are pretty crap, all told. Playing through the first times gave me that same sort of "wow" that Doom and Doom 2 did, what with the new environments, different focus and "almost realistic" architecture. These days I just see it as a not particularly fun mapset full of long corridors and hitscanners. (first few maps are pretty good though, I think)

Plutonia on the other hand, is great IMO. Whilst Doom 2 had the bonus of adding new enemies, weapons and textures to the mix, Plutonia really used them well, and altered the theme to boot.

As for the list of complaints? Most of them I'd flat-out disagree with or disregard, as they just don't match my opinion of it at all. Oddyssey of Noises seems like a great name to me, for one thing, and things like story are one of the least important things to Doom as a whole. I would agree that MAP31 missing the yellow key is dumb, and I'm certainly no fan of most Icon of Sin battles either.

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Katamori said:
- dumb story


since when did first person shooters have good stories? (other than RPG shooters)

Katamori said:
- dumb map concpets which don't match with the Doom story


Plutonia was created to serve as a challenge to veteran doomers, they don't care about concepts, they just wanted a challenge

Katamori said:- dumb ideas (invisible bridge at the end of MAP03, the all MAP11 labiryth, etc.)


I liked MAP11 D:

Katamori said:- incredibly hard (Mancubi on MAP01, hidden Arch-viles on MAP15)


as stated before, it was intentionally hard.

Katamori said:- he didn't think Go 2 it funny


it's not funny.

Katamori said:- Doom 2 copies (The Inmost Dens <-> NME; Circle of Death <-> Slayer)


and Doom 2 copied Wolfenstein, what's your point?

Katamori said:- dumb level names (Odyessy of Noises, NME)


who cares?

Katamori said:- boss fight and ending was the same as in Doom 2


I have to agree with this.

Katamori said:- don't contains any new music


I also agree with this.

Katamori said:TNT: EVILUTION

- lots of TNT letters on the walls (which was advertising themselves)


and many movies advertise coca cola

Katamori said:- MAP20 name as the same as E1M6 in Doom


and?

Katamori said:- MAP31 yellow key bug


They fixed that ages ago, google it.

Katamori said:- trick part at the start of the last level is bad


I liked this, your supposed to go on the candles in order of the candles in the first room. This is the reason some don't like HeXeN

Katamori said:- boss fight and ending was also the same as in Doom 2 and Plutonia


it's also impossible without cheats (literally), what the hell?

Katamori said:Do you agree with him? Becasue I think, these things don't make Final Doom bad. [/B]


there's my opinion.

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Everything I had to say I have said it long ago.

Actually, that reviewer you're talking about sounds like the typical 1996 reviewer trying to diss Final Doom at any cost and grasping at straws.

For me, Final Doom was the first Doom version I actually had a chance to purchase legally (through a RePlay re-edition), and I found it refreshingly different and actually more memorable than Doom 2, for instance, not to mention that you got TWO times the levels.

I can promptly recall places and gameplay of most TNT and Plutonia maps, while Doom 2 in comparison seemed a bland affair of which I can only remember MAP01, and the rest felt like a bunch of shovelware WADs thrown together.

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Final DooM kicks ass, I'll take it over DooM anyday, hell... I'd take it over a zdoom wad anyday as well.

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Maes said:

Everything I had to say I have said it long ago.

Actually, that reviewer you're talking about sounds like the typical 1996 reviewer trying to diss Final Doom at any cost and grasping at straws.

For me, Final Doom was the first Doom version I actually had a chance to purchase legally (through a RePlay re-edition), and I found it refreshingly different and actually more memorable than Doom 2, for instance, not to mention that you got TWO times the levels.

I can promptly recall places and gameplay of most TNT and Plutonia maps, while Doom 2 in comparison seemed a bland affair of which I can only remember MAP01, and the rest felt like a bunch of shovelware WADs thrown together.



heh... that one was really entertaining. see my comment on a letter to id.

exactly this. doom2 isn't bad in itself, it's just that in comparison to later wads its maps are mostly rather plain. i had countless hours of single + coop fun with final doom, far more than with the originals from id.

that reviewer is grasping at straws indeed, some of his points are, well, pointless for a doom episode:

- story: yeah, this was always so important for id games. as an alternative, he could read the story of hell revealed.

- hence "dumb maps concepts that don't match the doom story". what the hell should they match? do doom /doom2 levels look like anything? they were built for gameplay, not to look like a real place.

- "copies": it's called a hommage. a recreation of the original theme. did the guy really think the casali brothers couldn't throw a different map together? or that similarity was their intention.

- dumb map names: i raise him castle of eternal carrot in the sky and whatever more in that vein if the thinks a map's name must make sense.

- incredibly hard: ok, i'm waiting for his opinion on newgothic, sunder, SoD, HR and more.

- TNT on walls: yeah, map 19 has "ROMERO" written somewhere. that's advertising for romero :p

- go2it isn't funny, oh noes!


for the rest, yes, there are point one can agree with him, like key or texture bugs, no new bosses or music. however he should consider the age of these 2 megawads (standards simply evolved over time), and the time the authors had, i remember reading the casalis made plutonia in one go. while he sounds like minor mistakes make final doom bad.

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<3 Final Doom in it's entirety, except for The Dead Zone. That map was a pain in the ass, and not because the monsters.

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Marcaek said:

<3 Final Doom in it's entirety, except for The Dead Zone. That map was a pain in the ass, and not because the monsters.


I hated that map.

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Both episodes of Final Doom display an overall higher level of mapping than Doom 2 did. (Not that Doom 2 didn't have some good maps, or Final Doom some stinkers; that's why I say overall.)

The point that they "should have been" free megawads and that this might leave a bad taste in the mouth is a salient one, but if one ignores the historical drama surrounding its release, I think Evilution would have made a better "Doom 2" than Doom 2 did... Plutonia perhaps not so much because of its higher difficulty for the time and also because it veers off from the traditional base/different kind of base/hell progression and into a more general unifying theme of "brown." :P

But I either mildly dislike or outright hate most of Doom 2's city maps, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

edit: I actually feel like as far as id products go, Doom/Ultimate Doom was a much better-feeling game than Doom 2 was. Doom 2 has been an excellent engine and set of resources for people to build on for the past decade and a half, but much of the level content that the retail game shipped with was pretty mediocre. It's really not surprising that Final Doom surpassed it in that capacity.

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