which do you like more, doom or heretic.

[DoomGater]

Don't forget that there is the Morph Ovum in Heretic.
That makes Deathmatch REALLY funny!!

[doomygecko]

Personally I like Heretic more, just because I played that before Doom.

[Impie]

Heretic isn't as balanced as Doom. The weapons aren't that great and without the Tome of Power they're pathetically underpowered: in Doom you can do combat sweeps, often taking down one or more monsters with a single shot or a quick burst; but in Heretic you have to kill each member of the horde individually, as even measly gargoyles don't always go down in one hit, so the pace slows to a crawl. And I agree a lot of the textures aren't as interesting.

[mr fiat]

I like em both but id prefer DooM over any other game any day.

[hex11]

I generally prefer Doom, because it's a simpler, more focussed game (no inventory to manage), with various themes to keep it fresh. You can even do reasonably good medieval-fantasy maps in Doom, although it's true that in many cases the textures did come from Heretic and/or Hexen. ;)

One thing that really bugged me about Hexen was the crazy puzzles that required you to walk all over the place looking for clues, constantly running into random/wandering monsters.

[Lila Feuer]

Doom gets my vote, but Heretic is a very nice game. I prefer Hexen though, even if it is slower there's more cooler enemies/weapons. Had Hexen been on the same pace as Heretic it would of topped it easily. Imagine just one class wielding all twelve weapons?

[Reisal]

Doom, because Heretic never held my interest that much.

[Clonehunter]

printz said:

Hecatomb sounds too obsessive, like "let's put here a name that's so death-related we can shit bricks". It's like holocaust or bloodshed.

A game called Holocaust. There we go.

[Megamur]

DOOM, naturally. Heretic certainly wasn't bad, but sometimes it just felt like DOOM with cartoonier textures and less-satisfying weapons.

[Vordakk]

DeathevokatioN said:

Quality over quantity. Each level is so well textured and so tastefully constructed that I only noticed this when I looked through the resources in DooM builder. And if you play Curse of D'sparil you'd be surprised at how much variety you can actually pull off with those textures.

<--- Heretic fanboy. :)

Well said, sir. I have to agree that making levels in Heretic is more fun for me just because I can actually figure out what each texture is supposed to be, and thus how to place them to create a mood for each level. A lot of textures (and flats) from DOOM and DOOM 2 are headscratchers, honestly.

That said, I do favor DOOM slightly over Heretic, but I think both games are fantastic in their own way. In some ways it's unfair to compare the two games because even though they are both FPS titles, the feel of the two games is very different.

As far as boss fights go however, I think the fight with D'Sparil is MUCH cooler than the fight with the Spider Mastermind (who takes about 30 seconds to kill, if that). I remember feeling underwhelmed as a kid the first time I defeated the big Spider in E3M8. But when D'Sparil gets up after you toast his serpent and comes after you, summoning disciples, shooting balls of magical death, and warping around the room until you destroy him, at which time his corpse rises into the air encased by electricity and turns into a skeleton before crumbling into dust on the ground...yeah, THAT blew me away.

[kristus]

Vordakk said:

As far as boss fights go however, I think the fight with D'Sparil is MUCH cooler than the fight with the Spider Mastermind (who takes about 30 seconds to kill, if that). I remember feeling underwhelmed as a kid the first time I defeated the big Spider in E3M8. But when D'Sparil gets up after you toast his serpent and comes after you, summoning disciples, shooting balls of magical death, and warping around the room until you destroy him, at which time his corpse rises into the air encased by electricity and turns into a skeleton before crumbling into dust on the ground...yeah, THAT blew me away.

Yeah, and then in Hexen Korax is a pushover that looks like something korax would ride rather than korax himself should look like. :/

[Captain Red]

40oz said:

Shotgun Shells > Ethereal Arrows

Everytime.

This. Seriously.

Running around shooting demons is cool. Running around waving a manner of magical wands at an evil wizard... isn't.


Is it shallow that one of my favorite things about Doom is the aesthetics? I love that the weapons are mostly grounded in reality and that the first Doom's setting sort of made sense. In heretics case, it's just a bunch of brightly colored rooms and items. some of the monsters had cool designs, but it just doesn't inspire the same sense of adventure id's masterpiece does.

[negke]

I actually played through the whole of Heretic for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I did play the shareware episode back then and even made a few speedmaps for it, but never really liked the game much. And playing the whole thing now confirmed it.
It felt like a very mediocre game, in some aspects even worse than some Doom clones at the time. The sprites are okay, but the textures look ugly and there aren't many in total which leads to repetitive looking levels and sometimes weird clashing. The map design appears quite poor in many cases, apart from some nice nonlinear bits and surprises here and there. It doesn't help that there are, as it seems, only like a handful of sector/line functions.
I didn't like the weapons much, but didn't hate them either (except for their sounds); the alternate fire modes when using the tome of power are nice. The inventory/special items are a nice touch, though I didn't make that much use of them.

So, definitely Doom.
(Ironically, this possibly somewhat contradicts my earlier nostalgia skill statement in some other thread)

I'm sure there're some excellent custom levels and episodes on idgames, but playing the game turned me off so much that I can't be bothered to check.

[Vordakk]

kristus said:

Yeah, and then in Hexen Korax is a pushover that looks like something korax would ride rather than korax himself should look like. :/

Sadly, you are right. Korax was a letdown for sure. I guess Eidolon sort of made up for Korax perhaps.

Captain Red said:

I love that the weapons are mostly grounded in reality and that the first Doom's setting sort of made sense. In heretics case, it's just a bunch of brightly colored rooms and items.

Some of us actually appreciate games that aren't grounded in reality. That's the beauty of a game; it doesn't have to follow logical patterns or conventional realism whatsoever in order to be fun. I'm sure you've played Super Mario Bros., where a fat Italian plumber jumps and bashes his head against bricks, which then break to reveal coins or perhaps giant mushrooms, which make the plumber grow bigger. Realistic...no. Fun...yes. Looking back at games from the late 80's/early 90's, you'll see quite a few games featuring "brightly colored rooms and items", and most of them are awesome.

[hex11]

Heh, there's a lot of Heretic dissin' going on here. I actually liked the game a lot, just not as much as Doom. The colorful graphics were a nice change of pace from Doom's palette. And the little touches (water splash/current, lava eruptions, etc.) added to the atmosphere. Some of the monsters were just too damn cool (iron liches!) It's one of the few FPS games I bothered to go through beginning to end, and in fact that's something I can't say about Doom II.

[Captain Red]

Vordakk said:

Some of us actually appreciate games that aren't grounded in reality. That's the beauty of a game; it doesn't have to follow logical patterns or conventional realism whatsoever in order to be fun. I'm sure you've played Super Mario Bros., where a fat Italian plumber jumps and bashes his head against bricks, which then break to reveal coins or perhaps giant mushrooms, which make the plumber grow bigger. Realistic...no. Fun...yes. Looking back at games from the late 80's/early 90's, you'll see quite a few games featuring "brightly colored rooms and items", and most of them are awesome.

I have never understood the appeal of Mario. At all. Not even when I was a small child and the heyday of the Nintendo entertainment system. I get Zelda's appeal (though have never cared to finish any despite owning about five of the games) and I really enjoy the Metroid games, but Mario? I see nothing interesting about the games other then how it's become a bit of a sacred cow.

But I'm getting off topic here, The point I was making was that I find shooting demons with guns more fun them magicing magic at magic monsters because a wizard did it.

Also, I find that grounding as least some of a video games setting in reality can make the fantastical elements of a game seem that much more fantastic. One of the reasons I like Hexen over heretic is that the player classes start off with some fairly mundane weapons (other then the mage, but eh) and travel to some vaguely real world looking settings making all the crazy mythical beats even more impressive.

[aldiboronti]

Most disappointing sequel ever: Heretic 2 (although Hexen 2 gives it a run for its money). I can still remember playing this travesty of a game for the first time, with my sense of anticipation and excitement deflating like a punctured balloon. Did anybody here actually like it?

[yellowmadness54]

aldiboronti said:

Most disappointing sequel ever: Heretic 2 (although Hexen 2 gives it a run for its money). I can still remember playing this travesty of a game for the first time, with my sense of anticipation and excitement deflating like a punctured balloon. Did anybody here actually like it?

oh hell yeah on that one.

I still have to say I love heretic more. And what that other guy said about hexen should be more heretic paced is also agreeable.

I liked the weapons and atmosphere alot more. And after playing some of the WADs for heretin (hordes of chaos, hexetic) I have to say it is certainly more enjoyable.

[kristus]

aldiboronti said:

Most disappointing sequel ever: Heretic 2 (although Hexen 2 gives it a run for its money). I can still remember playing this travesty of a game for the first time, with my sense of anticipation and excitement deflating like a punctured balloon. Did anybody here actually like it?

I own the game since over 10 years back. But I never been able to force myself through it. It feels completely separated from Heretic and what made that game great. It's a game I feel is completely void of any kind of personality.

[Enjay]

The first time I played Heretic, I remember being disappointed that so much of the content was simply an analogue of what was in Doom. It felt more like a reskinned Doom with less impressive feeling weapons than a totally new game. That opinion hasn't really changed much over the years. I do like Heretic but, IMO, Doom is quite a bit better than it in terms of the satisfaction that I get from playing it.

[Lila Feuer]

Hexen II was more Hexen than Heretic II was Heretic. And that's not saying much. I've put off Heretic II for the longest time, if it didn't have the Heretic name it would probably be a decent third person action. I'm still going to try it out sometime and take it for what it is.

What I'd REALLY like is if those Quake-engine sequels were turned into proper games based on the advanced Doom engines.

[Vermil]

To me, Doom, Heretic and HeXen are all great games. Though I don't think Heretic or HeXen really achieved their full potential; neither of them really utilized their features to their fullest.

For one example, Heretic's levels were clearly designed so that one would explore every nook and cranny looking for artefacts, yet the game strips all but one of each type from you between maps.

It would be interesting to see Hexen 2 (Hecatomb in all but name; I consider it a part of the Serpent Rider trilogy; comapratively, I don't consider Heretic 2 a part) remade in the Doom engine. But that would be a many many year long project making it unlikely.

[Du Mhan Yhu]

I like both, but Doom will always be No.1 in my book. Plus I feel that Doom gameplay flows smoothly than Heretic Gameplay.

[printz]

skaman86 said:

Plus I feel that Doom gameplay flows smoothly than Heretic Gameplay.

I don't know how much I agree with that. While the monster/weapon balance in Doom may be better, Heretic allows you to carry the powerups, giving you more control on your survival than Doom, and in consequence, bigger heated battles in Heretic all thanks to your powerups helping you live, not to mention the higher difficulty stake in Heretic due to the lack of respawn.

[gun_psycho]

Here's my opinion on Heretic, Hexen, and Doom.

Personally, when I played Heretic, even at Black Plague Possesses Thee I felt it was a tad easier than Doom. (Then again, Hordes of Chaos was still crazy-difficult) The second stage of every D'sparil fight was a MASSIVE pain in the ass because of the bastard's teleport spam as he got closer to biting it, though.

The highlight in Hexen was playing as three different classes, but the stronger enemies were still somewhat in-the-middle, well... except for the friggin' wendigo enemies; the three player clone bosses were, according to TheSeriousCacodemon of youtube, pushovers if you use discs of repulsion on their projectiles. (Especially in the cases of Traductus and Menelkir)

Doom I love the best. Doom 1 was... a bit too easy compared to Doom 2, but then again, the shotgun takes way too many shots to drop those barons of hell. (fifteen point-blank shotgun blasts to drop one baron as opposed to five from the SSG) So... yeah, Doom 2's the definite version of Doom for me. (Despite the revenants and archies)

[Lila Feuer]

The Revenant is an easy monster, HP wise, the SSG will drop it in two point blank shots, a bit of maneuverability goes a long way to get him to swing his fist at you, back up and blast him, disabling his missile attack. His twitchy behavior however makes him more terrifying than the other monsters since the bastard has a habit of making cramped rooms really annoying. Viles are an interesting concept and certainly the most complicated monster in the game, but I feel ZDoom has nerfed them a little. They're really bastards with the original behavior.

[gun_psycho]

I know the revenant isn't too bad up close with the SSG and a bit of dodging his hooks, it's when the douchebags come in big groups and/or perched in high places where his homing rockets can get you that he becomes a real nightmare.

[Megamur]

Practically any DOOM monster is easy on its own. However, if you've got a group of Revenants all coming at you, then you're in serious trouble. Those missiles are fairly fast and track well, and they do even more damage than Baron fireballs.

I also don't understand how Arch-Viles were nerfed in ZDoom. Admittedly, since their flames are semi-translucent now, they can't quite blind you like they used to, but otherwise, they're actually a tiny bit worse in ZDoom, since they can't hurt themselves with their own blasts anymore.

[Lila Feuer]

Judging by original behavior he isn't shy to get around and/or hunt you down the moment he sees you. Plus if there's bodies he will go out his way to revive everyone and does it really fucking fast to boot.

Speaking of nerfed behavior, the Cleric's Firestorm in Hexen on ZDoom is awful. It seems much more underwhelming than I remember it. Thankfully it's more effective on other ports.

I'd suppose when you have to recreate all the behavior from the ground up there's bound to be some inaccuracies, but when I started to notice these things it got really annoying fast.

[Megamur]

Cyanosis said:

Judging by original behavior he isn't shy to get around and/or hunt you down the moment he sees you. Plus if there's bodies he will go out his way to revive everyone and does it really fucking fast to boot.

I severely doubt the behavior in ZDoom is any different. I think it's all in your head.