Was Doom 2: Hell on Earth just an expansion pack?

[Jannak]

Even though Doom II can be considered as a sequel but given that it's still practically the same game as the original Doom (same engine, weapons, monsters, items,) but only a few new material and new levels, do you think it's actually a expansion pack than a full blown sequel?

[Technician]

I've always felt that Doom 2 was more of an add-on, but it is a sequel. I remember in a Sandy Peterson interview he stated as well with not really considering Doom 2 to be a true sequel.

The game has a new weapon, a new item, and a few cool monsters. That's about it. I'd be more lenient if the game had a better boss and a more satisfying ending like Doom had.

[fraggle]

I've always thought that the Icon of Sin is a really lame boss. It's obviously intended to be this epic boss, a gigantic monster that shoots out other monsters that attack you. Unfortunately it's obvious that it's just a wall with a face on it, and the entire challenge of it comes from the fact that you're unable to aim downwards.

The Episode 2 battle against the Cyberdemon is something like 1,000x more epic and satisfying, because you're fighting against a real monster, instead of trying to post a rocket into a hole in the wall while being attacked on all sides.

[esselfortium]

Yeah... Episode 3's Spider Mastermind battle is similarly disappointing, really.

[b0rsuk]

Expansion pack. They called it a sequel for commercial reasons. But a very good expansion pack, not some lame "dlc". Doom2 monsters really make the game richer, and level design is much better.

[Tetzlaff]

Addons/Expansion packs are always shorter then the original game. From that point of view Doom II is a true sequel, not just a small extra package.

[Maes]

I'd call Ultimate Doom an expansion pack to Doom 1, as it literally just added another episode.

Doom 2 actually introduced new elements to the game -if only the SSG and new monsters-, while Final Doom was obviously an expansion pack to Doom II (same engine, new levels).

Of course what ruins the whole "expansion pack" concept is that each and every one of them was a standalone game. With this stricted definition, I'd only call some products like The Lost Episode/Jupiter and Hell to Pay "expansion packs", since they are not stand alone and were actually sold. Then again, if you waiver the commercial requirement, then Doom has literally hundreds of "expansion packs" ;-)

[Foodles]

esselfortium said:

Yeah... Episode 3's Spider Mastermind battle is similarly disappointing, really.

At least the spider mastermind ment well, it was a good enemy and quite scary back in the day (to me at least). The only problem was that it has far too little health and by that point most people have the BFG anyway so no enemies are really a challenge.

[Varis Alpha]

I have to say, you kinda lose respect for the Cyberdemon when you've managed to tyson his sorry ass on E2M8.

[Marnetmar]

b0rsuk said:

and level design is much better.

I would have to disagree. Only a selection of levels are better IMO

[b0rsuk]

Interesting - what do you value in DooM levels ? Here are things I noticed:

- Many DooM 1 levels are unnecessarily long and homogenous
- related to the above: few landmarks, not much variety in levels. Many are completely flat
- DooM II uses sectors of different height much more liberally

[Xeros612]

fraggle said:

I've always thought that the Icon of Sin is a really lame boss. It's obviously intended to be this epic boss, a gigantic monster that shoots out other monsters that attack you. Unfortunately it's obvious that it's just a wall with a face on it, and the entire challenge of it comes from the fact that you're unable to aim downwards.

Here's hoping Doom 4 offers a proper remake of said battle.

[Alphawolf]

It does feel like an expansion pack and I get much more satisfaction playing the first Doom, it's much much more fun.

[Hellbent]

I agree with fraggle and Essel. It was a big let down to see a wall texture as a stand in for the final boss. Spidey should have 5000 HPs, not 3000. Although I suppose a giant steel cybernetic demon logically would be tougher than a cybernetic spider with brains exposed. But I don't think these points are worth keeping spidey less tough than cybie.

Doomhuntress said:

I have to say, you kinda lose respect for the Cyberdemon when you've managed to tyson his sorry ass on E2M8.

what?

[magicsofa]

b0rsuk said:

a very good expansion pack

the fights at the end of E1 and E2, and to a lesser extent E3 were much cooler when I was worse at doom and played with the keyboard. Now it's just too easy and I only get hit by rockets by getting lazy. Map30 used to scare the shit out of me when I was younger and I couldn't beat it for the longest time - I would let the monsters build up for too long. But yeah kind of a let down
[quote]Hellbent said:
Spidey should have 5000 HPs, not 3000.

Meh...that would just make her boring fights last longer. If she is employed well 3000 hp is plenty, considering a few seconds of fire will rend your 200 health and armor. I think it would be better to improve the SM by giving it some more mobility, instead of being this big dumb hulk. The cyberdemon can get away with that but spidey could use something like a lost soul charge

[Alphawolf]

Meh...that would just make her boring fights last longer. If she is employed well 3000 hp is plenty, considering a few seconds of fire will rend your 200 health and armor. I think it would be better to improve the SM by giving it some more mobility, instead of being this big dumb hulk. The cyberdemon can get away with that but spidey could use something like a lost soul charge [/B][/quote]If she was placed in a more complex map, with perhaps two of them, like the Spider sisters or something corny like that, among a few baron of hells to guard them it would be much more epic... Actually I'm thinking of replacing E3M8 with that now...

[Varis Alpha]

Hellbent said:

what?

I killed the Cyber on E2M8 tyson style.

[Alphawolf]

Doomhuntress said:

I killed the Cyber on E2M8 tyson style.

Liar :)

[Varis Alpha]

Liar who?

[Xaser]

Coulda been MDK. :P

Not many will believe it without video proof, and even then, using ZDoom gives you an advantage since the corrected hitboxes allow you to punch things a lot easier. Not that it's not doable, just sayin'.

And yeah, I've always seen E4 as the expansion and D2 as the sequel (with Master Levels as its expansion). I'm not sure how Final Doom fits in to all that, but whatever. :P

[kristus]

I've seen Xit Vono melee the Cyb in Vanilla Doom on E2M8. Took about 40 minutes. Besides, seeing as you have mods running. It's no reason to believe that you didn't cheat there by getting weapons that don't show up in the HUD or simply giving the fist a 5000 dmg.

[Alphawolf]

Doomhuntress said:

Liar who?

You're still lying, you didn't dodge those rockets, you burned the wall with your rockets...

Btw what have you done to doom guys face...

[Technician]

Photoshoped! I can see the pixels around the fingers.

[Alphawolf]

I actually believe her, there's always a lot of scorch marks along the wall when you've fisted one of the bad boys. I would like to know how she did it, and on what difficulty.

[Varis Alpha]

I know it doesn't look very convincing, but the excitement of felling down the Cyber tyson-style made me forget screenshotting in time, that's all I managed to get.

I can't have burned my rockets on the walls, do you see a RL in my inventory?

If anyone can recommend any good video recording software, I swear I'll make a video of me doing so and posting it on Youtube.

[elic]

IMHO Doom II was sort of a cross between a sequel and expansion pack. It introduced many new monsters, textures, and the SSG and had a different setting, but the gameplay and engine were essentially the same. Sort of like The Second Encounter from Serious Sam.

I like Doom II's final boss a lot better than the Spiderdemon. It looked strange but at least it was an actual challenge. In E3M8 all you have to do is switch to the BFG, open the door, run down the hall, run to the Mastermind, press "CTRL" two times, and you win the damn game.

[Maes]

I don't get why you doubt Doomhuntress, it's definitively possible to beat E2M8 tyson style, and recently there was even a novel trick introduced to speed it up below the previous compet-n 5+ minutes record. I need to remind myself to actually attempt it myself at least once.

[Alphawolf]

Is berserker pack allowed?

Btw huntress, Fraps is a good program to record games.

[Varis Alpha]

If you're planning on beating it legit, no. Keep in mind, also, that beating it tyson also allows you to use the pistol, which I used to great effect.

...I seriously want to record myself while doing it again. Does anyone know any good video-recording software for the job?

[Alphawolf]

I just told ya, a program called 'Fraps', it renders the recording at good quality too. All you need after that is something called 'virtualdub' to compress the raw data (takes a lot of disk space) and you're rolling.

BTW, I did this: Beatdown last year using fraps.