Boss monsters: What Doom brought to the table -- can it be recaptured?

[Chrispaks]

Of course you must expect a reference to the two most infamous bosses in our known history (or at least, the Doomer's subjective gaming history relative to this game): Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind. I don't know how you guys reacted upon each boss, but I personally think E2M8 scared me a lot more than E3M8.

*Goes back in memory-time*
The cyberdemon put more of my blood in game on the ground than I've had to give blood or lost blood over my lifetime. I remember being in the chamber when I accidentally nudged the shotgun for the first time. I was expecting something a bit harder than two barons of hell, but not this. God not this.

A few hours later I finally trumped it. I don't think I've ever had that big of a challenge in my life up until that point. It was the most invigorating boss battle I'd ever experienced. Of course on replay attempts it got easier and easier, especially when strafe became commonplace. The spider mastermind relative to the cyberdemon was a letdown for me. I would run up to it and plant the BFG in its face... only to win. In fact, there have been close to zero times that if I have the BFG I won't spam it in the spider mastermind's face, just because it goes down with one shot. Of course, the cyberdemon was another story when I tried to BFG it up close.
CyberdemonKillCount++; as they say.


*Returns to reality*
I've been searching through wads to find appropriate boss monsters that fit the bill, but the problem is through many of wads I've gone through, most of the custom ones either suffer from one or more of the following
- Not strong enough (rare)
- Too much health
- Firepower unreasonable
- Lacking supplies
- You die with IDDQD on still

Some I've found to be good, but the best one's I've found stick me in a field with a hitscanner. I feel that most [not all] custom bosses haven't hit the middle ground that the cyberdemon had. The cyberdemon was a fun challenge because it didn't kill you instantly, you still even in your newb stages for the most part had the ability to dodge. You would just occasionally screw up (if you're like me) and have to restart. It was a fun affair though. The problem is these boss monsters don't live quite up to that fun, or at least not for me. Some of you will disagree and if you could post some wads with what you feel is awesome boss monsters, I'd greatly appreciate it and will be playing.



So why am I making this thread?
Well I'm trying a new project:
I want to create a boss monster. I want to make it from scratch (yes, photoshop and all!); it will take a while. It's an experiment to see what I can come up with. The goal in mind is to make an enjoyable boss monster battle. One of the issues that may come up is "It's supposed to lead up from a wad to make the suspense that much more epic", but who is to say I won't make a wad and have it as the grand boss? ;)



Therefore: what in your opinion makes a doom boss monster good? If you were given a magic wand and could create whatever your imagination can summon, what would it be? Can it recapture the magic essence that for some of us may not be there anymore?
Likewise, which of these criteria in your opinion feel like accurate representations of what you subjectively feel a boss monster should/shouldn't have:
[ ] New sprites outright, little/no sprite rips
[ ] High health
[ ] Able to be fair on all difficulty levels (from beginner to advanced, but not so easy it's a joke)
[ ] Heavy DECORATE usage
[ ] Uses ACS
[ ] Bring in original ideas/features (if you have an example that'd be even better)
[ ] Tailored for all environments (just as dangerous in a tight room as a big open field)
[ ] Only be used in the wad's finale, unlike cyber which ends up appearing throughout Doom 2 and is commonplace in wads at times
[ ] (Your input here)

[Seeker_of_Truth]

It sounds like a good idea to me. A lot of what you mentioned makes sense. He would need to be one of those ultra rare bosses that the Cyberdemon was supposed to be. I think he would definitely need to be fair on all difficulties, and yet he would have to be tough enough to make it a challenge on all difficulties (I wouldn't know how to go about that exactly). I think the different environments would be nice as well. You always knew the Cyberdemon was coming up because you see all the tall pillars coming up. As far as his look goes, though, it doesn't necessarily have to be intimidating IMO. I think the effect could be better if the player was caught off guard.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

Maybe you could make the monster do different things on different difficulties, and make the fight start out in a tight space and move around to other environments. I.e: Start out in a village, goes to a canyon, to a field, to a cave etc...Ending in this bosses palace or something.

[Memfis]

Most important thing for me: it should be VERY easy to understand how the boss attacks you. I don't want to replay the map again and again just to figure out why I keep dying.

I also dislike arcade elements, like the monsters who become stronger when at low health. The boss shouldn't change during the battle.

[magicsofa]

[ ] New sprites outright, little/no sprite rips
[ ] High health
[X] Able to be fair on all difficulty levels (from beginner to advanced, but not so easy it's a joke)
[X] Heavy DECORATE usage
[ ] Uses ACS
[X] Bring in original ideas/features (if you have an example that'd be even better)
[ ] Tailored for all environments (just as dangerous in a tight room as a big open field)
[ ] Only be used in the wad's finale, unlike cyber which ends up appearing throughout Doom 2 and is commonplace in wads at times
[X] (Your input here)

I don't care much about new graphics, a recolored cyberdemon is cool with me as long as he's fun to fight :P

I didn't check "high health" but it should be difficult to destroy. If your boss is hard to hit in the first place (teleporting around, moving fast, etc) then their health shouldn't be as high as a cyberdemon who basically just lumbers around letting you pump shell after shell into his exposed ass cheeks :D

Fairness goes without saying...but the game already accounts for this, I mean cyber's rockets are a lot less devastating on ITYTD

DECORATE is probably the most important thing to me, coupled with the "new ideas/features" point. I suppose ACS could accomplish this too, but using DECORATE would maximize portability. I want to see boss monsters that do more than just reiterate the old ones. For example, the Maulotaur was a great boss enemy because of his multiple attacks which keep you on your toes (like being able to charge). I also really enjoyed Hexen's mini-bosses where you fight the three classes. That was interesting because they move like the player rather than a monster, giving it the hectic element of a DM fight.

A boss that's usable in any environment would be a plus, but that's not easy or necessary. Obviously the Cyberdemon is nearly harmless if you put him in a giant empty field, while the Mastermind becomes almost impossible to beat. I would think for this you would need a boss with relatively small size who changes their attack based on the distance to the player (which I think DECORATE has built-in stuff for). They would have to be able to remain a threat from far away but not totally destroy the player up close.

As far as the wad's finale...who knows. When we all first played E2M8 we probably didn't expect to find so many cybies in doom 2. Then again, he's not a completely devastating monster. He's tough and his rockets will blow you to smithereens, but he's not the same as a boss like Korax, D'Sparil, or the Icon of Sin, where putting them in the middle of a wad might not be appropriate. So it depends on what you come up with :P That said, I'd rather see a boss that's super cool but too powerful to show up as a regular monster, than one that can be used more liberally but isn't really as cool or challenging to fight.

That reminds me of the Inquisitors from Strife. Those guys were just annoying to me - they were scary at first, but after I kept getting raped by their grenades I resorted to getting them stuck on the architecture and using phosphorus grenades. Boring. Your boss should be hard, but not so powerful that the player is resorting to trickery to beat them (also it would be nice if they were "smart" enough to get around the arena you put them in)

[Gez]

[X] New sprites outright, little/no sprite rips
Obviously. What's the point of a new monster if it's not new? Same for sounds.

It's fine to make variants of existing stuff, but then I expect them to be variants. The Hell Knight is not radically different from the Baron.

[?] High health
What is "high" health? It's very subjective. If the boss takes too long to kill, it's tedious. If it dies too soon, it's too easy.

[X] Able to be fair on all difficulty levels (from beginner to advanced, but not so easy it's a joke)
This one is hard to obtain, though.

[?] Heavy DECORATE usage
What's "heavy DECORATE usage"? If you make its behavior too complex, you're going away from the simplicity of the original Doom bosses.

[ ] Uses ACS
Not needed. See note above.

[?] Bring in original ideas/features (if you have an example that'd be even better)
It doesn't hurt to be original, but try to avoid being gimmicky.

[ ] Tailored for all environments (just as dangerous in a tight room as a big open field)
No, the monster is a boss. It's the environment that should be tailored to it.

Plus it's not like you'd succeed anyway. As a rule, all monsters are less dangerous in a big open field where you have a lot of room to maneuver and dodge their attacks. The exception would be a hitscanner like the spider mastermind, provided there is little cover and you cannot close in with the monster enough to use the BFG to its full effect.

[ ] Only be used in the wad's finale, unlike cyber which ends up appearing throughout Doom 2 and is commonplace in wads at times
In Doom, the cyber and the spider are encountered after 7 or 8 levels of progression. In Doom II, there are 30 levels and the first spider and cyber are encountered on the sixth and eighth map. It is comparable; it's just that Doom II is longer.


[ ] (Your input here)

[scalliano]

I agree, larger/slower bosses should have more health than smaller/nimble ones. However, while the amount of health is important, the context of the map is, too. If you plan on making the finale fight a map in itself, this may call for a health boost (you don't want it to be over in less than a minute), however if it's going to be at the end of a reasonably sized regular map, or if it isn't going to be a 1v1 fight and will have lots of mooks, a lower HP might be in order.

Also, the arena the fight takes place in is very important. You wouldn't put a Cybie in a crate maze, for example.

DECORATE is a must if the boss is going to have any really interesting attack patterns, but ACS is entirely optional, though ACS may be best for those kinds of static "core"-type bosses we see in some games (UTnT has a good example of this).

[magicsofa]

Gez said:

[?] Heavy DECORATE usage
What's "heavy DECORATE usage"? If you make its behavior too complex, you're going away from the simplicity of the original Doom bosses.

I guess I can agree that too much decorate would be a bad thing. But still, I'd like to see a boss that has a little more AI than chase, shoot, chase.

[printz]

Chrispaks said:

A few hours later I finally trumped it. I don't think I've ever had that big of a challenge in my life up until that point.

I think I had that exact reaction when I defeated D'sparil, which was much much later than my playing Doom and Doom 2 (I was pretty experienced by that time). D'sparil was owning my ass not due to sheer health or strength, but by using some of the best methods that a bad AI like in Doom/Heretic can pull off against an agile player.

I hate console-like bosses, who are giant dragon-like monsters with a set of randomly or sequentially chosen heavy-gimmick attacks. I much prefer small and agile bosses. D'sparil and the Hexen pseudo-bots are some of my favourites.

[PRIMEVAL]

Heh, a friend and I are sort of perhaps planning of a boss-like being to create.

The only custom boss monster I've seen that's really a worthy boss would probably be the Overlord from the Bestiary.

[magicsofa]

PRIMEVAL said:

sort of perhaps planning

don't get too ambitious :P

[TropicalDeathPunch]

I hate the Archviles, period. But they are much better than the Revenant IMHO. With that Said, what about an Archvile boss? Have him blast lines (or waves) of fire across the ground periodically or have fire blast up under you in the form of a large pentagram, maybe have it stream out as blood first that then bursts into flames. Both having varying degrees of damage of course. Or if there was a way to combine the missile apparatus of the Revenant to the Archvile and have it Rain down 3 missiles like artillery along with it's existing attack just slightly tweaked. I think if you used the revive ability for the mode in which it would fire the missiles, the work would be 1/4 done. Maybe 1/8. :)

[Mithran Denizen]

TropicalDeathPunch said:

I hate the Archviles, period. But they are much better than the Revenant IMHO. With that Said, what about an Archvile boss? Have him blast lines (or waves) of fire across the ground periodically or have fire blast up under you in the form of a large pentagram, maybe have it stream out as blood first that then bursts into flames. Both having varying degrees of damage of course. Or if there was a way to combine the missile apparatus of the Revenant to the Archvile and have it Rain down 3 missiles like artillery along with it's existing attack just slightly tweaked. I think if you used the revive ability for the mode in which it would fire the missiles, the work would be 1/4 done. Maybe 1/8. :)

Incidentally, this mod has a custom arch-vile boss fight near the end that sounds sort of similar to what you're talking about.

[TropicalDeathPunch]

Mithran Denizen said:

Incidentally, this mod has a custom arch-vile boss fight near the end that sounds sort of similar to what you're talking about.

Well, a day late and a dollar short. At least I'm not broke! Thanks.

[PRIMEVAL]

magicsofa said:

don't get too ambitious :P

Yeah, it's hard to hold in my enthusiasm and excitement.

[Avoozl]

There was a custom made boss for a certain wad called "island.wad" which used the archviles attack but the custom sprites made for it were so crappy. :P

[Chrispaks]

I've been thinking of ideas and one of the issues that plagues me is my inability to do art. I've looked on various zdoom threads and anatomy books to draw an epic monster, but damn it's tough. Even with photoshop and the cool tricks it has, making the art is-- for me at least-- infinitely harder than making the decorate and room[s] for it :(


In fact it's not even that its hard, I made a great model with some smudging but the doom palette makes it look like I barfed on my screen... and I don't want to limit myself to GZDoom [not that I have a problem with it]


All the ideas in this thread I've manifested into a vision, but the sprites itself are a roadblock not even Jesus H Walford Christ himself could break.

[TropicalDeathPunch]

at least your are accepting the challenge of making a sprite! I'm tempted but I can't even get a window to work on my map! Tried it again today and ended up having to re-sidedef the outer wall of the entire map.
PS. Make a Barf sprite for fun?

[Mithran Denizen]

Chrispaks said:

All the ideas in this thread I've manifested into a vision, but the sprites itself are a roadblock not even Jesus H Walford Christ himself could break.

That's the problem with building new monsters; it's easy to have ideas or a 'vision' of the thing, but at the end of the day, it still takes a talented person with plenty of spriting skill (and ideally some classical arts skills) to bring the creature to life, and make it look respectable in Doom's palette.

Sprite edits of the extant boss monsters usually come across as being little more than bland rehashes in my opinion, but I understand how hard it is to actually create a fully functional set of graphics, let alone have them fit the appropriate mood set by the rest fo the game, so this can be forgiven.

Still, I'd rather play a wad lacking any kind of boss fight than have another battle against some chimeric thing with bits and pieces from the cyberdemon and a spiderdemon patched together over top of Korax.

[edit:] Same for the plain cyberdemon and spiderdemon themselves actually; I think PWADs (and Doom 2 / Final Doom) have really (ab)used the boss monsters too much, and stretched them to the brink of their usefulness. Barring some very interesting arena design, or behavioural modification, I'd rather have a PWAD end a level earlier rather than pit me against either of these two.

[Avoozl]

I've always had this idea to do the icon of sin as an actual free boss with the same style head but scaled down for obvious reasons, make it 2/1.5x the size of a cyberdemon and give it a large plasma/fire ball attack with the damage equivalent of a bfg projectile blast and somehow give it the ability to spawn monsters similar to the strogg medic in quake 2/4, but I guess this idea is impossible to do and rather pointless.

[Guest]

Map 32 of claustrophobia 1024 2 has a tough and interesting cyberdemon fight, just as an idea. (Though I am totally biased seeing as it is my own map. :o )

Download http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/48079-claustrophobia-1024-2-released/

[hex11]

How about a cyberdemon who managed to wrangle a pair of spiderdemons (yee-hah!) and rides them both at the same time, standing one foot on each, reins in hand. Then when his mounts kick the bucket, he jumps off and commences to lay down a barrage of death in your direction from his twin six-shooter rocket launchers. If you're quick enough on your feet, you might even last until the archvile posse shows up...

[ManCannon]

Maybe give it variety in its attacks, if you look at games where boss monsters play a major role (Zelda, God of War, Shadow of the Colossus) the player has to learn each bosses characteristics and ways of dealing with each move it might have.

Sometimes it shoots a slow projectile, some times it does a ground blast, sometimes it burns lazers across the screen etc etc

[printz]

Hello, Kyka :)

TropicalDeathPunch said:

I hate the Archviles, period. But they are much better than the Revenant IMHO. With that Said, what about an Archvile boss?

The Realm667 Diabolist IS an Archvile boss. You can modify its DECORATE so it can also resurrect, invoke pentagrams of fire below you etc. (I think the Hell Smith also from Realm667 invokes fire pentagrams).

[cbronson]

The worst boss to defeat would be a little devil-like creature which could run FASTER than doomguy! Imagine that....