America's Education System Is Fine

[Scripten]

Quast said:

If Pennsylvania is a southern state, then yes.

Oh, you, too?

I fucking HATE the American public school system, and the PA town I lived in was absolutely retarded. And I was one of those "A" students. I've never done drugs or any other stupid shit, and I consistently got good grades and took the hardest classes I could. And I did learn some things. But that doesn't mean the system was successful, because I know for a fact that most of the important concepts and information I know are from learning, on my own time, via the internet and books. Most of my classmates are going to community college to become bookkeepers and managers of fast food joints, paying back buckets of money with measly wages. The few that do have real goals in life either have to put their parents and themselves into debt to pay for a decent education, or are, like me, still stuck in that limbo between high school and college, working minimum wage jobs until they can finally get around the red tape and get a decent education.

There's a real problem with our school system, and it goes far deeper than any of the points the OP mentioned. And it never stops affecting every member of our society nor our culture as a whole.

Also, to specifically highlight the issue of religion in schools, here's a couple of good stories of my own. In my high school, there were a few teachers that I had who were Christians. First, there was my chem teacher, who's been known to show multiple propaganda videos during class, kick out students for wearing bands on their arms supporting gay marriage, and generally push his religion onto every last one of his students. Of course, a few people and parents responded, but the school board, town council, and majority of the town's populace are God-fearin' Christians and didn't see a problem with this. They even allow him to hold after-school Bible study in his classroom and to hand out papers during class to pick out those who don't attend.

Secondly, there was a very personal experience I had with my senior year English teacher, who was teaching a class that was considered "college level." One would think that this would constitute an open minded learning experience with fewer test and more actual teacher. Hardly. One interesting time I remember was when the teacher held a class debate regarding the ethics of forcing religion onto other people. I, and several of my friends, of course chose the side of... y'know, NOT being a preachy, pushy asshole. After about ten minutes of us keeping level-headed and evenly shooting down every point the opposition could make, the teacher stopped the debate, told us how we were wrong, and allowed no more discussion on the subject. Except every so often when she would mention stories of how she'd "saved" another soul.

So... please don't try to tell me that religion, Christianity specifically, isn't forced upon students in school. It is. Simple as that.

[elic]

samusaran253 said:

I'd say the school system is pretty damn good, if not the best in the world.

[Technician]

Asia is mopping the floor with the western world. If it weren't for them, the big leagues would be closed.

[Aliotroph?]

Technician said:

Asia is mopping the floor with the western world. If it weren't for them, the big leagues would be closed.

Funny thing about that is the people I know who need well-educated students (scientists and such) don't want to work with typical graduates of Asian school systems. They have stupidly high test scores, but they are taught to follow instructions and don't make for good independent researchers or innovators. Asia does produce a lot of excellent thinkers, but they certainly aren't the typical product of the system.

Oh, and Membrain and friends should have been in the courts alongside the ACLU.

[Technician]

Aliotroph? said:

Funny thing about that is the people I know who need well-educated students (scientists and such) don't want to work with typical graduates of Asian school systems. They have stupidly high test scores, but they are taught to follow instructions and don't make for good independent researchers or innovators. Asia does produce a lot of excellent thinkers, but they certainly aren't the typical product of the system.

That has more to do with their culture. Most Asian's careers often requires them to be a company gear, a collective if you will.

[Ultraboy94]

Maybe the school system is bad on purpose, so it tests to find the students that actually do want to learn, because they go elsewhere to learn things properly in their own time.

[/crazy thought]

[Technician]

Ultraboy94 said:

Maybe the school system is bad on purpose, so it tests to find the students that actually do want to learn, because they go elsewhere to learn things properly in their own time.

[/crazy thought]

Retarded thought. The kids who "do want to learn" are still drastically behind other countries curriculums. Our problems are social. Lack of will, price of tuitions, budget cuts, willful ignorance, and the list goes on. Sadly, people often believe the slogan "we're number one" is inherent.

[Csonicgo]

Technician said:

That has more to do with their culture. Most Asian's careers often requires them to be a company gear, a collective if you will.

Thankfully the latest generation in Japan has found out they were such a cog in the system that they're distancing themselves.

[Maes]

Most of samusaran253's long post seems to focus more on school security issues, rather than the curriculum itself. While adequate school security is necessary (and you don't have that even in kindergarten), it's not where the bulk of the criticism vs US schooling is directed.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14416

[Scuba Steve]

I am a public education teacher, ask me anything about the districts I have worked in.

[gggmork]

Technician said:

Most Asian's careers often requires them to be a company gear

[bytor]

Scuba Steve said:

I am a public education teacher, ask me anything about the districts I have worked in.

How many troubled/failing students have you seen that had the intelligence to be so much more but lacked any kind of parental guidance or participation?

How often do you beat your head against the wall?

[Mr. Freeze]

Technician said:

Bullshit, asshole. If your too ignorant to research the idealisms of Intelligent Design, then there's no helping you.

Dude...

What?

Calling me names isn't strengthening your argument one bit. Yeah, I agree that Intelligent Design is a bunch of bullshit (I'm a secular humanist, so I'm inherently anti-ID, despite my agnostic leanings). But that doesn't make your argument (which WAS a slippery slope, sorry to tell you) any better. I mean, isn't outright bullshitting part of the problem?

As for ID's supporters having ulterior motives...well, no shit. However, I'd be hesitant to say that's every one of them. I know a few people like that (and although anecdotal evidence =/ the case everywhere), and I can honestly say that they really do believe that by putting in ID in schools, they are raising awareness of GodJesus or whatever, which in turn will make kids make the right choices in life. Take from that what you will, because I see a 50-50 split. Of course, that's just me being agnostic, but whatever.

[Scuba Steve]

bytor said:

How many troubled/failing students have you seen that had the intelligence to be so much more but lacked any kind of parental guidance or participation?

This is huge. Having a parent(s)/guardian come in for conferences and you tell them where their student needs help or significant improvement and they pay you lip service (Yeah we've been trying... yeah, we want her to...what can we do to...), but the next week their homework is STILL not getting done, their planner STILL not signed, and the student STILL missing/late for school. I can't give you a number of students, but it's easy to tell which students have parents that push them at home and which do not. I realize that some students have very poor and dysfunctional home lives... but that is another rant.

Banging my head? A lot.

[Mr. Freeze]

Scuba, have you seen Waiting for Superman? If so, what did you make of it?

[Sharessa]

Threads like this make me realize that my high school really did deserve being in the top 100 in the nation.

School really doesn't prepare you for the real world at all. They told us all these things about life that were total bullshit.

School: "Your hard work will be rewarded."

Real Life: "Because you don't get drunk and stoned until 5 in the morning three days a week with the rest of the staff, we don't think you fit in despite working your ass off and coming in early every day. We're giving you the shittiest job and cutting your pay. Meanwhile, Stoney McSlackoff is friends with everyone because of his drug connections so we're giving him a pay raise and a promotion as long as he shows up for work most of the time."

School: "It will be tough, but you will have to put in long hours if you want to get anywhere."

Real Life: "We need you to stop working and clock off now. We don't care if your co-workers are swamped by unexpected business today, our sacred numbers show we're behind. Also, you're becoming a liability to our profits because of all these extra hours you're doing. We're going to have to slash your hours and pay until you stop doing this."

So yeah, fuck all that.

Csonicgo said:

Thankfully the latest generation in Japan has found out they were such a cog in the system that they're distancing themselves.

It's kind of interesting that the latest generation has basically been a huge disappointment to the country, picking dead-end short-hours jobs so they can lock themselves in their room, watch ehntai, and play video games all day. Then I read in a recent issue of Time that since the earthquake, young people are banding together on their own to start all these charitable operations to get the country back on its feet. Seems like they were just waiting for a purpose.

Scuba Steve said:

This is huge. Having a parent(s)/guardian come in for conferences and you tell them where their student needs help or significant improvement and they pay you lip service (Yeah we've been trying... yeah, we want her to...what can we do to...), but the next week their homework is STILL not getting done, their planner STILL not signed, and the student STILL missing/late for school. I can't give you a number of students, but it's easy to tell which students have parents that push them at home and which do not. I realize that some students have very poor and dysfunctional home lives... but that is another rant.

Banging my head? A lot.

Embarrassingly, this sounds like me. When I was about 10, my mom had some sort of midlife crisis and decided she needed to stop drinking and find a meaning in her life or something. So she started spending more time away from home going to AA meetings and the like, leaving me with my dad, who has never had the faintest inkling of how to interact with other people let along be a parent. So from that time on, she TRIED to keep up with my life and encourage me along but in the end really wasn't there for me, and this culminated in my parents getting a divorce when I was 15, and I had all sorts of issues with depression and the like all through Jr. High and High School. So that sucked.

Anyway, long story short, I've always had trouble in school and all my teachers told me I was smart and just needed to "apply myself" I never fucking understood this phrase at all. I'm not fucking super glue. If you want me to be someone better, give me the motivation to do so. So around the time I was 10, they decided I must be some sort of genius, so they gave me IQ tests and decided I actually was (but like I've said before, I can kind of hack tests, so that's probably bullshit). So they stuck me in these advanced classes and that was fun and I actually learned some shit, but soon after they decided to cut the program from the school district, so that was short lived. Then it was on to high school and all the bullshit I mentioned in my first post. No one ever told me to "apply myself" any more, let alone pay any attention to me. Then again, all my teachers then had like 100-150 students a day probably, and one more failing student wasn't going to bother them.

[kristus]

geekmarine said:

In my experience, the failure is with the students, not the education system. I mean, you have all those cases where Americans get basic facts wrong, and I guarantee it isn't because those facts aren't being taught, it's because those lazy idiots didn't bother paying attention.

You can never fault a student for not being motivated to learn. They aren't responsible for their education. That is the job of the teachers and parents.

I've watched a lot of debates and discussions and reports about american schools. Though most of them are about the religious bull impeding the curriculum. Especially in the biology department where there are creationist science teachers that teach the kids the wrong facts about evolution. Or there are science teachers that reduce teaching about evolution to the last week before summer break just to not get angry reactions from fundamentalist parent tards.

Then there's the texas board of eduction that is a major thorn in the side of the American education system. A pack of publically elects that in effect ends up deciding how the textbooks for the rest of the states will end up as for the next 10 years. A pack of right wing creationists that try to rewrite history to teach the kids that America is a christian funded nation and so on.

I am sure there are lots of great teachers and schools around in the US. But there are huge issues that plague the system and a strong movement that are intent on teaching the kids falsehoods.

[Hege]

I recall reading this one study about the current time uses and the studies and people in general that related to the education system.
It pretty much summed the thing to this; People are busy. It reflects to your kids. Kids and young people generally also learn to be much more in control due of videogames and other medies that allow them to do things faster and faster, find information even faster aswell. Then compare that to the school, which is just simply speaking, boring, un intresting. It clashes completely with the reality they are used to. Which later clashes realities further when you finally get outta there.

And to think about; Has the school system changed much at all ever since it started? Back when people were not so busy? When people were more and more past orientaited? It really starts to seem how outdated it can be.

Sure maybe the information is up to date, but its still in the same principle as it has always been.

[Mordeth]

Xaser said:
If our forum roles were reversed, that'd be your title now.

Well, I guess I could have responded to the OP with some well thought out snippets that illustrate how the USA is not fine, indeed very much in trouble; citing the dire condition of its political system, its education, healthcare, finances and indeed the very mental attitude and complacency of its general populace; and how these problems reinforce eachother into some kind of giant clusterfuck that makes each individual problem harder/impossible to solve on its own.

You know what would happen next: flagwaving rhetorics, denial, fingerpointing, insults and a general mindset that I'm some kind of enemy that needs to be combatted on this internet battlefield.

Point is, I'm not the enemy. Indeed, I very much like the americans I know and wish all of them rich fulfilling lives. It makes me sad that instead their nation is turning into a dog-eat-dog hellhole, when it could have been the shining example to the rest of the world they still make it out to be.

This has been going on for forever, and things don't seem to be changing for the better. So now, when being confronted with threads like these that pretty much confirm that yes, the US is still on its path to destruction, I just sadly shake my head, go "lol americans" and turn my attention to other, better things that still have hope of improving.

[Gez]

Note that Europe isn't much better off than the USA, all things considered and especially when you picture in the EU's current agenda of dismantling everything that works to instead imitate stuff that has failed elsewhere. (Mostly because the European Parliament has no real power while the lobby-infested and anti-democratic European Commission leads the show.)

[DoomUK]

School was such an intensely and unrelentingly miserable period of my life that it would of made very little difference what I was taught. Did ok in mathematics and English but that was a fluke, I swear it.

Most of my education has taken place on my own accord as an adult. And I don't have to be concerned about being bullied and ridiculed over my appearance on a daily basis, distracting me from exercising my mind.

[Blastfrog]

Danarchy said:

"Because you don't get drunk and stoned until 5 in the morning three days a week with the rest of the staff, we don't think you fit in despite working your ass off and coming in early every day. We're giving you the shittiest job and cutting your pay. Meanwhile, Stoney McSlackoff is friends with everyone because of his drug connections so we're giving him a pay raise and a promotion as long as he shows up for work most of the time."

Since when does that ever happen? (aside from working in the drug dealing industry :P)

[Mattfrie1]

Considering the fact that I am still in an American high school (currently a junior, or also known as the 11th grade), I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in on the whole situation.

The majority of users here on Doomworld are probably out of school by now, and I'll be the first to say that it has changed ALOT since most of you people graduated (at least around where I live). For me to get out of high school (aka graduation requirements), I need to do 3 things. The first and most obvious is to gain a certain amount of credits (24). Credits are awarded by passing classes, with certain classes being worth a certain amount of credits. If you fail too many classes and don't get the credits, you can either go to summer school (evilly dubbed "extended school year" by my school's official handbook/agenda) in order to gain the credit for the class you failed, or if you failed too many important classes, you stay back. Now, I figure that has been the same since most of you were in high school, and was the only thing many of you had to do in order to graduate high school.

However, recently 2 more requirements have been added to the list for the state that I live in (Doomworld's only member from Rhode Island. Yup, the smallest state in the US). The first of these is to pass in a portfolio with work (called "tasks") which meets a certain requirement. We need 7 of these tasks in both English and Math, and 6 for Science. These tasks can be from any of your 4 years of high school, and you need to have gotten at least a B (which is a number grade of 80%) on the assignment. Also, these tasks need to meet a certain Learner Expectation number (which I can't be arsed about to give details on what each one means) which is assigned when you get the task. With each task you do, you also need to write a "reflection" about your work. (i.e. why did you chose this for your portfolio, what did you learn, etc.) Then, once you have finished at the close of your senior year, you hand your portfolio in, and have a panel of teachers from throughout the school go over it, and make sure it is complete. If it is, you are done with the damn thing, and are one step closer to graduating.

The 2nd thing is to do a Capstone project. Now, this isn't your normal project. You can chose to do this on almost anything you like. The only requirement is if you can associate what you want to do into a "how" question. For example, my question was "How can a high school student teach others about violence in the media and it's effects on others?" From there, you are to create a binder full of research that you do on the topic, and you are also to create a Powerpoint presentation of about 25 slides of your research. With this Powerpoint, you are supposed to go to at least 1 class and teach them about your topic. After that, you present to a panel of judges who grade your overall presentation and your binder of research. Once you pass, you are also one step closer to being able to graduate.

Out of the 2 things I previously mentioned, I feel like that I'd get more out of the Capstone project, considering I actually enjoyed doing it, and I feel like it will possibly help me out in the future, as I'd like to take a job of something that I have an interest in which will involve me doing research on it. On the other hand, the portfolio is just used to showcase that you actually got up off your ass and put some effort into your work, which is important in it's own right.

However, the major flaw with both of these projects is the fact that they are really involved, and many students choose not to do these, thus increasing the dropout rate, because they can't be bothered to stop texting in class and worrying about who's fucking who.

That lead's me into my next area, which is the social world of my high school. Now, I can tell you that the OP's comment of saying bullying doesn't happen in schools is dead wrong, as others have suggested. Much of the bullying isn't done face-to-face, and it's more of a person-just-got-up-from-lunchtable-so-let's-talk-shit-about-them kind. The name calling isn't as much as it once was back in middle school, but it still exists in small quantities. I'm pretty much the quiet, shy, geeky kind of kid who hangs out with his closest friend's and doesn't get involved in all the bullshit, so I'm pretty much in spectator mode when it comes to most of the shit. Now, my school isn't picture perfect. About half of the kids in my school I estimate are potheads (myself not included), and we just had an incident about a month ago where an anger-management student knocked his teacher on her ass and she had to go to the hospital. A kid has brought a knife in once and threatened to stab some chick for reasons unknown. The roof leaks, and not all the teachers are bright either.

But hell, I'm making my way through the system, and personally can't wait to get out of it. Have I learned things throughout my 13 years, yes. Will I be as smart as some kid from China, no. But personally, I don't give a shit. As long as this goddamn diploma I get in about a years time can get me a decent job somewhere that will get me enough money to support myself, then I'll be happy. But then again, with all the shit that is going on here in America, that might not be as easy as it sounds.

NINJA EDIT: A huge post like this seems fitting for my 350th post.

[magicsofa]

I'm three weeks away from being done with my fifth and final year of college.

What have I learned? Let's see...my life goals and dreams, skills I never thought I'd acquire like community organizing, the importance of people and love.

What have I learned in class? Bullshit. Yeah, I've written some papers, gained knowledge about how trees grow, how forests work, how ecosystems work. I've done some math problems, I've given presentations. Some of the things I learned in class stuck with me and I'm glad to have that. However, when compared to the countless hours of falling asleep, not caring, or being preoccupied...fuck it all. The non-learning severely outweighs the learning.

Of course, this has a lot to do with my personality. I'm too stubborn to do things I don't care about, so my grades have always suffered. It really sucks because for the past 13 or so years I've been made to feel like I was lazy. Some of the time I would shrug that feeling off because I knew the system was crap. But after a while it can get to you. Being Slackey McStoner isn't all fun and games! I think a big part of the problem is that if people don't care about the work they are forced to do, they end up living life trying to avoid work (or, working a job but basically hating it and not being invested in it). Work should be fulfilling and motivating.

So yeah, some people might be okay with reading books and writing down the answers, sitting in desks all day. I am not okay with that. I love reading and I have a list of books that I want to get, many of which are from my classes. But I'm not going to read technical books without putting them to use.

I just don't see the point in sitting in a fucking desk absorbing information. I honestly think my nearly two decades of schooling would have been better spent outside learning how to grow food, how to build houses, how to make tools and clothing. Unfortunately I didn't have the outlet or the balls to figure that out and go for it (I don't know, by dropping out or something), and instead I feel like leaving college is the beginning of my real education.

As I said before, I've learned about my life purpose and crazy shit like that. But I really learned those from the community, from my peers. I got involved with a student gardening club and that has honestly been the pinnacle of my education - I'm now one of the leaders of a club. When I was younger I thought myself not to be someone who would do something like that. It was probably because school made it seem less than appealing. It's been difficult to run a student organization, but I usually felt a lot more motivation to do work for it than for my regular classes.

This is why it's really sad when things like art programs get cut. Math and english should not be our primary concern. Our primary concern should be teaching children how to live, how to survive, and how to follow their passions.

[Mr. Freeze]

College...If only I could travel back in time and talk some sense into my 18-year-old self.

The September after my graduation, I enrolled in the New England Institute of Art. Spent two years there working on my associates degree (transportation costs meant each semester was only 2-3 classes). And what do I have to show for it?

Jack fucking shit. The first year was all Gen-Ed stuff, which irritated me to the core. Why am I paying money to go over shit I already learned in high school? And when the second year rolled around, I was appaled at how shallow the course material was (my degree of choice was Audio Production). I wound up dropping out after realizing that I could be learning the same material for free if I looked online. Multiple years pissed away, and only debt to show for it.

Still, it could be worse. Some of my friends owe way more than I do, and dropped out during their 3rd-4th years. But if you gave me a choice, I'd go straight into the workforce instead.

[magicsofa]

Mr. Freeze said:

I enrolled in the New England Institute of Art. Spent two years there working on my associates degree (transportation costs meant each semester was only 2-3 classes). And what do I have to show for it?

Jack fucking shit. The first year was all Gen-Ed stuff, which irritated me to the core. Why am I paying money to go over shit I already learned in high school? And when the second year rolled around, I was appaled at how shallow the course material was (my degree of choice was Audio Production). I wound up dropping out after realizing that I could be learning the same material for free if I looked online. Multiple years pissed away, and only debt to show for it.

Damn, that sucks! It's probably hit and miss with art programs, my girlfriend is in the fashion design program at MassArt and despite having like 10 hours of work per day, I view it as a more rewarding experience than what I had.