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C30N9

Confusing things in DOOM

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So, as the title says, not talking about bugs but things that can be controled in vanilla, and possibly in source ports.

1- Cyber Demon is the second boss, Spider Mastermind is the third and last boss, however the Cyber Demon's health is 4000 while the last boss which must be a big challenge, higher level of health and speed health is 3000. Also the Spider Mastermind size is huge, you can just hide and shoot him from a small gap. Why did they do this? Why not swapped?

2- The Pain Elemental has a ressurect state, it can be ressurected by an Archvile, however there is no chance for normal ressurect. With a simple trick by crushing it, it can be ressurected then. But why did they add a ressurect state even they meant to not make it able to be ressurected?

I know this is a 17 years old game but these are just for discuss ;).

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1 - Probably has to do with the Spider Mastermind having a hitscan attack, which is far faster (as in, instant) than the Cyberdemon's rockets. It makes the Spider Mastermind far deadlier than the Cyberdemon, since it doesn't turn into a giant ugly target once you learn to circle-strafe.

2 - There was likely a time when the Pain Elemental didn't explode upon death.

For shits and giggles (and because it's relevant), I'll add...
3 - The Lost Soul has a decorative corpse actor, but the monster removes itself upon death.

I think the general consensus is that originally the Lost Soul didn't explode, removing itself, but it actually had a corpse.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, the beta lost soul had a corpse instead of exploding, it was then replaced by this.

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It's confusing to me that new mappers often start mapping in vanilla or limit removing format, then when introducing themselves to the community asking if theres a way to make deep water or a two story building or to have a new monster they are immediately persuaded to switch to a different source port.

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Akira_98 said:

I think the general consensus is that originally the Lost Soul didn't explode, removing itself, but it actually had a corpse.


Ironically, it because useful for preventing people from loading pwads with the shareware version (I think)

40oz...stop bitching

I guess the spidermastermind was probably a lot more scary before people got better at strafing and whatnot, just like the cyberdemon. Its chaingun will certainly rend you pretty instantly, but yeah, kind of a lame boss

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I think the episode 3 boss should have been a lot smaller and faster, something like the arch-vile, or maybe that marine enemy from scythe 2, except still with its chaincannon. This would have made it a much more deadly foe, perhaps too hard for back in 1993 though.

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Foodles said:

I think the episode 3 boss should have been a lot smaller and faster, something like the arch-vile, or maybe that marine enemy from scythe 2, except still with its chaincannon. This would have made it a much more deadly foe, perhaps too hard for back in 1993 though.


I agree with faster, but smaller??? One of the unbreakable rules for 90's bosses, is that bosses should have a big, or atleast intimidating presence. :)

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I never truly understood why techbase stuff was used in E3. I've speculated before but it's still a bit odd to see.

Well that's actually pretty hypocritical of me because I love using textures that clash when I'm not mapping for DTWID.

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40oz's point is extremely valid. There are ways to acheive "advanced" effects in Vanilla/Old ports, but they're kind of a lost art, everybody's just told "switch lol". Maybe said enthusiastic noob wants to make a wad that will be cross-compatible?

Anway Slige used to put a "dead" lost soul in each start room of it's levels so that they wouldn't work with shareware.

As for the Spider Mastermind/Cyberdemon. Just look at them! Of course seasoned Doomers fear the Cyberdemon more because they know what it is, but from a purely objective point of view a "giant" is less scary than "a huge brain on robot spider legs".

Also most Spider Mastermind fights seem to be tailored towards helping the player win (lots of cover, plasma gun and loads of ammo etc) mainly because if they give the spider the advantages you'll be slaughtered!

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It has always bugged me that Doom 2 MAP27 doesn't really have a giant unique surprise monster named Condo.

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Marnetmar said:

I never truly understood why techbase stuff was used in E3. I've speculated before but it's still a bit odd to see.

Well that's actually pretty hypocritical of me because I love using textures that clash when I'm not mapping for DTWID.


I agree. I'm building a hell-themed map right now, and one of the funnest thing is mixing tech/industrial themes with flesh, stone, wood, marble, etc. I'm a sucker for that kind of thing I guess, which is why I never quite understood the criticism for E3's use of techbase textures (although I'll grant that some of them are used really poorly.)

I think the cyberdemon has always been a more terrifying enemy for me because not only is it imposing, but it's also fast and attacks on a dime, and somehow that thundering "kwa-THUD" noise it makes as it walks has always been more intimidating than the mastermind's walk sound. There's nothing scarier than hearing a cyberdemon bearing down on you without knowing exactly where it is, expecting it to appear from around a corner at any second.

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The Spider Mastermind is a bit of a pussy, it's pain chance is pretty high, I guess the art in making it hard is making it in a position where you can't hide every 2 seconds

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WildWeasel said:

Map27 doesn't in any way resemble a condominium.

Would you have preferred a bunch of claustrophobic rooms that look the same?

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Just going to put it out there that Map27 is an atmospheric and untouchable masterpiece. It's abstract, and that's how I like it.

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DeathevokatioN said:

Just going to put it out there that Map27 is an atmospheric and untouchable masterpiece. It's abstract, and that's how I like it.


I agree man, i'm gonna get hated for this but Sandys' maps were such a weird, illogical but wonderfully playable take on FPS levels, he's pretty inspiring, but after wondering for a while what he was thinking whilst mapping, especially for E2 and 3, he was redoing tom's work, which meant his maps had the complex non-linear Wolf3D style, something which rarely appears in modern WADs,

for the detailing, look to romero, for the non-linear maps, look at how they made Wolf3D maps!

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Akira_98 said:

Spider Mastermind far deadlier than the Cyberdemon


I keep seeing these kinds of comments floating around. I sometimes think they're used to troll newbie DOOMers into thinking the Mastermind is actually threatening. Sure, it's a menace if you're in a tiny room with no cover, but basically every higher-level demon is under those circumstances. Generally, you can just BFG the thing in the face, point-blank, and call it a day; at range, the thing can barely hurt you at all. Get two Cyberdemons after you, and you're in major trouble; get two Spiders, and laugh while they pepper each other with bullets.

Also:

4. There's a sector effect that causes a sector's ceiling to raise like a door, five minutes after a level begins. It does this one time, stays open briefly--for the same amount of time as a standard "door open close" door--and then closes forever... What's the point of this thing?

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I dont find any enemies in doom menacing. I just find them more challenging than the other. I dont call them bosses, more like toughened up average enemies that are rarely found upon.

I love cybers and spiders (though fighting the cyber is alot more fun) simply because they dont follow the simple boss styled fight, but more rather an exaggerated fight of a normal enemie.

IE no "weak points" no certain amount of things you have to do (like boss fights on N64 games took normally 3 {place action here} to defeat), no large scale levels just for the boss with loads of scripts and cutscenes.

Now the stuff on realm667 I consider more boss-y, simply because (and I hate this too) they take loads of health, play out more like boss battles, and have (often extremely over done) over powered attacks.

Honestly, the shit with the hell knights sending out more than 30 prejectiles then exploding the ground looks cool, but is not fun to fight more than once.

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Megamur said:

4. There's a sector effect that causes a sector's ceiling to raise like a door, five minutes after a level begins.[/b] It does this one time, stays open briefly--for the same amount of time as a standard "door open close" door--and then closes forever... What's the point of this thing?


Probably intended for a secret but never used.

Now the stuff on realm667 I consider more boss-y, simply because (and I hate this too) they take loads of health, play out more like boss battles, and have (often extremely over done) over powered attacks.


There's a couple monsters that are well done or would be with some minor modification, but most of the bestiary is crap. I'd like to see some of the better monsters used by a talented mapper.

The plasma zombie's weapon really should act more like the player's, maybe fire a burst.

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deathbringer said:

As for the Spider Mastermind/Cyberdemon. Just look at them! Of course seasoned Doomers fear the Cyberdemon more because they know what it is, but from a purely objective point of view a "giant" is less scary than "a huge brain on robot spider legs".


I would think that the thought of a thirty-foot-tall horned minotaur with a rocket launcher attached to its arm would be a lot more frightening to most people.

Whenever I see a spiderdemon I see a cheap knockoff of Krang from TMNT.

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Megamur said:

4. There's a sector effect that causes a sector's ceiling to raise like a door, five minutes after a level begins.[/b] It does this one time, stays open briefly--for the same amount of time as a standard "door open close" door--and then closes forever... What's the point of this thing?


It is used as a secret only in MAP27, when you start run towards the door that leads you to the second area. You probably always thought what the arrow thing does in front of you, this arrow hints about the secret. On the left if you made it in time you will see some goods over there, now enter this secret and wait once it closes.

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That door thing could be used to force a speed run: "You have five minutes, then the exit is sealed off forever!"

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hex11 said:

That door thing could be used to force a speed run: "You have five minutes, then the exit is sealed off forever!"


That's WAY too easy to get wrong, in a similar fashion to one-time doors, inescapable but non-damaging rooms and pits, one-time switches etc. that are not hinted as such and can actually make a level unwinnable. I personally consider the use of one-time events as poor design/oversight (with VERY few exceptions), unless the player has been given ample warning in the form of a .txt, hints, etc.

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Yeah, I was thinking the warning would be in the TXT file, probably also with a description of what the "gate" looks like.

Perhaps the gate closing could also trigger the release of a few cyberdemons. ;)

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