Reverie - A New Vanilla Doom II Megawad (Final Idgames Link!)

[kmxexii]

valkiriforce said:

I numbered those colored panels recently to make it more obvious that you should remember them for the code that appears later on. Other fixes also made except the Commander Keen one as I'm not really sure how to make it more obvious without totally exposing them with light.

I thought the panels were fairly obvious in an early beta build.

I wonder if you could hack in lost soul sprites to replace the keens, just the static stuff and the death animation, and then illuminate them.

[valkiriforce]

I just had the cool idea recently to just surround the lost soul/keen with exploding barrels so simply shooting at it once will kill them both.

[MegaDoomer]

valkiriforce said:

I just had the cool idea recently to just surround the lost soul/keen with exploding barrels so simply shooting at it once will kill them both.

Good idea! :)

[MegaDoomer]

valkiriforce - I'm only going by monster count here, not type, but as a slightly late note of critique, some levels seemed a bit light on the difficulty settings. Not a huge problem, especially as I did notice some levels had different monster types on different difficulties, but I wanted to note it as I feel the final version should have good implementation of difficulty settings on all maps. In the maps I've tested, normal (HMP) generally seemed about the right difficulty for that skill :) - so go from there for the most part. As a rule of thumb, easy should probably be at least 10-15% easier, and hard at least 10-15% harder IMO.

[kmxexii]

MegaDoomer said:

valkiriforce - I'm only going by monster count here, not type, but as a slightly late note of critique, some levels seemed a bit light on the difficulty settings. Not a huge problem, especially as I did notice some levels had different monster types on different difficulties, but I wanted to note it as I feel the final version should have good implementation of difficulty settings on all maps. In the maps I've tested, normal (HMP) generally seemed about the right difficulty for that skill :) - so go from there for the most part. As a rule of thumb, easy should probably be at least 10-15% easier, and hard at least 10-15% harder IMO.

From what I playtested, I think UV is pretty well-pegged, but I don't know what's changed since then. I just remember that the monster placement was pretty devious in most spots (and almost unfair in others ;P).

[BilboHicks]

Just tried Doom Core tonight, Then I find out about this (!). Great Stuff :D.

[MegaDoomer]

kmxexii said:

From what I playtested, I think UV is pretty well-pegged, but I don't know what's changed since then. I just remember that the monster placement was pretty devious in most spots (and almost unfair in others ;P).

Unfair, as in a criticism, or just "almost unfair" (i.e. not quite to the point of frustration or detracting from enjoyment)?

From what you tested of the wad, what did you think of it? IMO it is the bomb!!

[kmxexii]

MegaDoomer said:

Unfair, as in a criticism, or just "almost unfair" (i.e. not quite to the point of frustration or detracting from enjoyment)?

From what you tested of the wad, what did you think of it? IMO it is the bomb!!

I think it's fantastic, even better in some ways than the '96 megawads it draws inspiration from. "almost unfair" as in the latter definition you provided. I was a bit more critical of difficulty when testing than I'd otherwise be as the maps I typically play are considered finished products, so I sometimes found myself thinking "okay, is this too hard? Or is it meant to feel this hard?"

The puzzles though were great.

[Odd-o-matic]

MAP08 is really hard. The blue key was probably the hardest there. It's the puzzles that took so long because I couldn't figure them out. It took 44:19 to complete the map :P.

[UnholyMessias]

Ive been playing this wad uptill map06 on pistol start on uv and i must say im very impressed. Very oldschool gameplay with awesome texturing. Overall difficulty is pretty good as said by kmxexii but some maps were on the easy side. Some map specific notes:
map 01 and map 02 pretty bland and easy starter maps, cant even really remember these after playing uptill map06
map 03 is where it starts to pick up, nice architecture with pretty good gameplay and a nasty chaingunner trap which i really liked. The door with the pillars in front of it looked really weird though in the first secret, id suggest removing the pillars.
map 04 was nice and hard, the ssg is placed in a really odd spot though, i found it far too late, id suggest putting it in a more obvious spot where your sure to be coming through. The progression was not really logical either with some annoying backtracking needed. Overall the gameplay was very good, low on ammo and hard :D.
Map 05 was fine, nothing really to comment on, fun and quite hard.
map 06 also pretty good but the ending was pretty lackluster. I had a lot of shells and plasma left over and the boss is an archy? Id put a cyber there instead, the corridor is a good place to fight it and would make it far more exciting.
Overall very impressive until now :D This is the best wad ive played in a long time

[phobosdeimos1]

I hope you don't mind but I'm doing a let's play of the BETA:

[finnw]

Overall very impressed with it but...

Why all the one-way teleporters that permanently cut you off from part of the map? And why teleport into exit rooms when W1 exit lines would be simpler? If it's mostly to make the exit room look the same as the next level's start room then the effect would be better if it was part of the architecture rather than a detached area that you teleport to.

[valkiriforce]

finnw said:

Overall very impressed with it but...

Why all the one-way teleporters that permanently cut you off from part of the map? And why teleport into exit rooms when W1 exit lines would be simpler? If it's mostly to make the exit room look the same as the next level's start room then the effect would be better if it was part of the architecture rather than a detached area that you teleport to.

NONE of these levels were inter-connected in any way. The transitional exits were sort of last minute on my part, with the exception of MAP25 into MAP26.

UnholyMessias said:

map 03 is where it starts to pick up, nice architecture with pretty good gameplay and a nasty chaingunner trap which i really liked. The door with the pillars in front of it looked really weird though in the first secret, id suggest removing the pillars.

I thought that looked weird, too. I only put it there because some people were frustrated that there wasn't a secret behind that door.

[Odd-o-matic]

I completely stuck on The Tech Towers. I don't know how to get any of the keys. Can somebody help?

[PRIMEVAL]

Map13 music sent to big daddy V.

[MegaDoomer]

Odd-o-matic said:

I completely stuck on The Tech Towers. I don't know how to get any of the keys. Can somebody help?

(This is Map10.) The blue key is the first key you get. I have a guess as to the problem; it's a small bug that I missed in testing. If you shoot the switch at linedef 1042 before pressing the switch at linedef 940, you will not be able to use the switch at linedef 940 (the sector it is part of is lowered to the ground with the linedef 1042 shootswitch) and will be stuck as both switches are required. I'll send valkiriforce a message regarding this (directing him here). If this is not what you did, please let me know with perhaps further detail as to how/where you are stuck.

[hawkwind]

MegaDoomer said:

(This is Map10.) If you shoot the switch at linedef 1042 before pressing the switch at linedef 940, you will not be able to use the switch at linedef 940 (the sector it is part of is lowered to the ground with the linedef 1042 shootswitch) and will be stuck as both switches are required.

Good find MegaDoomer ! I also did not come across this bug. Can be fixed by just giving line 951 line type 119 and tagged # 16 . Covers whichever is activated first.

[MegaDoomer]

hawkwind said:

Good find MegaDoomer ! I also did not come across this bug. Can be fixed by just giving line 951 line type 119 and tagged # 16 . Covers whichever is activated first.

Thanks for the compliment. :) I got a PM from valkiriforce saying it's been fixed.

I don't know how he fixed it but your solution would work - linedef 951 would raise the platform if the player shot 1042 first, and linedef 951 would do nothing if the player hit 940 before shooting 1042.

[Odd-o-matic]

Hmmmmm...
I think I hit the gray switch first because the platform is raised and the lift is open. I just don't know how to get the blue key.

EDIT: I found where the blue key is, I don't know how to get there, the ceiling is lowered so I can't get up to it.
EDIT2:I've got the blue key!

[dew]

more FDA's for maps 09-15 and 31.

map10:

And of course a silly "bug": I had to use editor at the very end, because I grabbed BSK without activating the W1 line around it and got left with a mysteriously locked bar. I killed nearly 10 minutes stumbling through the empty map wondering what the hell...
Why connecting an unreliable W1 line you can walk around to something half the map away? I mean, there's 665 S1 switches as it is, one more won't hurt anything. :)

map11:
that second secret seems too well hidden, imo. the switch is several rooms away and not apparent at all.

map12:
this map rocks. :)

map13:
some switches do something mysterious far away and player is left wondering what the hell just happened. i mean, look...
reverie logic: after a few switches and fights, a key is given to me. i use the key to open an S1 door/switch _nearby_ and press another switch that opens bars on the other side of the map.
"local" logic: let me press all the relevant switches in the area and give me the key as the last thing i do in there, so i have a closure of sorts and don't backtrack so often. the key opens the bars directly and my brain hurts less. :)
of course this is my take on the issue, i just felt the need to vent it, because this map doesn't look like a switch hunt at first.

map14:

Really tight on ammo, I dunno what I'd do without telefragging the spiders. I'd probably add more cells for clearing the barons and HKs. Chaingunning them isn't much fun.

map15:
a cool and very fun map, really it is, buuuut...

...the southeastern building with the teleporter is a dick move in the purest sense. I died in a hailstorm of bullets and reloaded from a segment, because I was too angry to bother with replaying it. I even had a decent stack, but that spot is way too unfair without foreknowledge.

Another issue: the secret room in the southern building. Of course I had to check the map in editor after exiting, because that just makes no sense AND it's insanely well hidden. Shame, cause that soulsphere would've been very helpful for the chainer trap.

And the worst thing of all: the final horde. I know it's "four" teleporter destinations, but after the first manco goes in, it's zero until he hauls ass. And an arachnotron will block it until killed, because he will have trouble moving through the narrow openings. Also it was cheap to peek from above, provoke infights and terrorize them with infinitely tall explosions. There should be another teleport gazebo at another spot AND they should have wider openings.

map31:

Spoiler

I felt great pride for every secret I discovered, but in the end I had to get a hint from editor, because PRESSING TREES is absolutely not a thing I'd be used to do in Doom. Could your please put a halo of light around it or some other hint? I mean... Sherlock Holmes, probably. Batman, definitely. Inspector Clouseau, by accident. The rest of us? Not bloody likely. :)

plus... (about the very final battle)

...going against the cybie with BFG and stack... but he started shooting as soon as I teleported, pinned me in the closet and I was defenceless. This is a design flaw, imo.

i'm having much fun. pardon me if i sound overly critical, it's because i'm trying to help. :)

[MegaDoomer]

@dew: I'm sure vf will appreciate and take your suggestions into consideration, especially since you say you're having fun and all. :)

I'd soften the term "dick move in the purest sense" though (from Map15). That's kind of harsh and even potentially offensive.

As somewhat of a look into what I noticed when testing relevant to some of your points: I did find Map13 to be a bit of a switch hunt, with some "what did that switch just do?" moments, and I believe I let vf know that when I was testing. I also criticized for a shortage of health and ammo in much of Map15. I don't know if vf took these suggestions though, I didn't look. I can't recall if I mentioned the last monster teleporter being slow on Map15, but I do remember it would seem to keep throwing a new guy at me just when I thought the fight is finished, to the point in which I started just expecting new monsters until things finally ceased. I had to use an editor myself in Map31, but it is a puzzle level after all, not to mention also a secret level and you can leave via the normal exit at any time, so I didn't complain. But overall I think all you said is fair game to be considered. :)

(BTW, I actually can't remember running into any negative points that you didn't mention, excluding ones vf has changed already.)

[dew]

MegaDoomer said:

I'd soften the term "dick move in the purest sense" though (from Map15). That's kind of harsh and even potentially offensive.

i didn't mean it to be offensive, but i wanted to emphasize how evil that trap is. and this IS the soft term compared to the stream of expletives bursting from my mouth immediatelly after getting butchered there. i don't know how good michael's czech is, but he'd probably learn a new word or two if he heard it. ;)

[MegaDoomer]

dew said:

i didn't mean it to be offensive, but i wanted to emphasize how evil that trap is. and this IS the soft term compared to the stream of expletives bursting from my mouth immediatelly after getting butchered there. i don't know how good michael's czech is, but he'd probably learn a new word or two if he heard it. ;)

Nothing to get so frustrated about!, just save beforehand and reload if necesary. That's what I did, and having to reload saved games does not make me incredibly frustrated.

[phobosdeimos1]

I took 14 Minutes on MAP04 :(

[Joshy]

MegaDoomer said:

Nothing to get so frustrated about!, just save beforehand and reload if necesary. That's what I did, and having to reload saved games does not make me incredibly frustrated.

But if I'm not wrong, he was recording FDAs and FDAs do not allow for save/loading, and if I was to start all over on a map because of a very unfair trap right at the end or whatnot, I'd be swearing in a different language too, sign language for me in this case. :P

[Odd-o-matic]

phobosdeimos1 said:

I took 14 Minutes on MAP04 :(

14 minutes isn't that long, MAP10 has taken me 30+ minutes and I'm still not finished. Also, MAP08 (I think) took 44:19 for me to do it, pretty hard as well. Nice playthrough though! :)

[MegaDoomer]

Joshy said:

But if I'm not wrong, he was recording FDAs and FDAs do not allow for save/loading, and if I was to start all over on a map because of a very unfair trap right at the end or whatnot, I'd be swearing in a different language too, sign language for me in this case. :P

Sorry, my bad - didn't realize he was demo-recording.

BTW - is requiring prior knowledge to take on successfully considered grounds for calling a trap unfair in your opinion? Why or why not?

[phobosdeimos1]

Odd-o-matic said:

14 minutes isn't that long, MAP10 has taken me 30+ minutes and I'm still not finished. Also, MAP08 (I think) took 44:19 for me to do it, pretty hard as well. Nice playthrough though! :)

Thanks Dude! I die on this one :(

[Joshy]

MegaDoomer said:

Sorry, my bad - didn't realize he was demo-recording.

BTW - is requiring prior knowledge to take on successfully considered grounds for calling a trap unfair in your opinion? Why or why not?

It all depends IMO. I don't want to sound hypocritical for some of my maps in Speed of Doom may have several unfair traps to a few (I designed the maps to be challenging for me, also with me knowing where the monsters/traps are). Basically, with traps, the player should be able to escape somehow relatively (even if the trap is completely unexpected), or be able to fight back with the appropriate weapons in hand with enough health/armor to be able to allow for first-time confrontation resistance, there should be (generally) subtle hints that a trap is imminent. It is also suggested that the player can see the monsters coming in, rather than them gunning them down immediately from behind unseen.

As for the difficulty of the traps, an unfair trap can be seen as unfair if the rest of the map is relatively simple. The trap's difficulty should be congruent with the whole map's difficulty. For example, SOD Map23 has some deadly traps, but the map was already deadly in the first place. A trap that spikes in difficulty generally induces rage. ;-)

I had another look at what dew was talking about and I remember this part. I playtested every map in Reverie perfectly fine but this map gave me the shits and I didn't play it fully properly, especially because of this trap. I just died, and died. And died. Everytime that happened, I used this word with heartfelt passion countless times, violently grabbed my hair and then eventually rage-quitted. I'm sure you get the idea how frustrated I was then. :-) This trap is pretty much unfair for the following reasons: Quite unexpected and the hitscanners shoot immediately on sight, not allowing for any time for the player to adjust to the situation (it would be different if the monsters were not hitscanners). Also, the player would most likely not have the proper armour or health to survive the situation (a beserk with megaarmour and a chaingun would make this trap okay, I tested that situation 5 times starting at the lift with 100% health, 200% armour using only the chaingun, I died 2 times and when I did survive, I had less than 50% health. If the hitscanners weren't bad enough, you have the revenants to finish you off). Generally when you're testing your 'unfair' traps, you need to survive more than die for most of your attempts. Hope all this makes sense somewhat.

EDIT: Just checked dew's FDA on map 15, he had the plasma rifle beforehand with a megaarmour and nailed the area. It's more about choosing certain routes before turning into that area so you'd have the right guns but it can be really frustrating for the unlucky doomer who happens to be going to that area first without the proper gear like I did. :3

EDIT2: Just re-read that dew segmented this part, heh, disregard my last comment then. :P

[hawkwind]

Deleted.