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slugmudorange

dreamhack summer 2011 - quake live

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DREAMHACK SUMMER 2011
STREAMS
ENGLISH
RUSSIAN
GERMAN

Starts in 5 hours 30 min.
DUEL GROUPS
Group A
Cypher
k1llsen
evil
GaRpY

Group B
Cooller
spartie
czm
dem0n

Group C
Strenx
DaHanG
madix
amai

Group D
Rapha
av3k
fazz
zsx

TDM GROUPS
Group A
METSU
Team Alpha
doctor))) +1
nerfed

Group B
4 Kings
xentorium
Dignitas
Free For All

Group C
Serious Gaming
UltraFragXtreme.us
coman
<OPEN>

Group D
Reason Gaming
Russia DengiOnline.com
aCtion
Most Wanted Clan


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5/30 Results

Spoiler

CSN Group Stage Day 2
DKT [1-2] Ziel

15-0 Furious Heights
4-11 Toxicity
3-4 Lost World

Rapha [2-0] Mortal1

36-6 Aerowalk
9-2 Bloodrun

Round 2

DKT [0-2] Rapha

1-13 Vertical Vengeance
2-6 Furious Heights

Ziel [2-0] Mortal1

23-0 Hecktik
18-2 Bloodrun

Round 3

DKT [0-2] Mortal1

0-10 Vertical Vengeance
0-10 Bloodrun

Rapha [2-0] Ziel

12-3 Vertical Vengeance
17 - -3 Hecktik

5/29 Results
Spoiler

Zotac Cup
1st - Avek (100€)

Eurocup TDM
Metsu > Doctors 2-0

FFA #2
1st - Strenx (100€)

CSN GROUP STAGE DAY 1
Group A
Sparks [2-1] Everkill

Zero4 [2-0] Gellehsak

Zero4 [1-2] Sparks

Everkill [2-1] Gellehsak

Sparks [2-1] Gellehsak

Zero4 [2-1] everkill

Group C
Rey [2-0] Dahang

Chance [2-0] Dcoy

Chance [2-0] Rey

Dahang [2-0] Dcoy

Rey [2-0] Dcoy

Dahang [2-1] Chance

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5/28 Results
Spoiler

ASUS Spring 2011 Lan Kiev, Russia
1st. Cypher - 40 000 RUB (~1 000€)
2nd. Cooller - 25 000 RUB (~625€)
3rd. agent - 10 000 RUB (~250€)
4th. evil - Hardware from sponsors
5-8th. x1t, Amai, pavel, dazator - Hardware from sponsors

JeeSports Open
1st - Kyoto (25€)

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After all these years, why do streams like this (and the pros, most of them anyway) still play with picmip 5? In 99, it was more or less required in order hit the magic 125 fps that altered the game's physics in the player's favor, which is understandable. These days though, it really doesn't serve much purpose and it looks like shit for the rest of us that want to watch an event.

I realize that if you're a guy like Cooller who has played for roughly ten years with picmip 5, it would be weird to change. That's fine -- let the pros play how they want. But as for streaming, why not up the visual quality beyond ps1 quality?

I don't buy the whole "yeah but more detail = more visual noise = more distraction, etc" argument. It takes only a few minutes of adjustment to get used to it, similar to how many hardcore players adapted to using widescreen LCDs or other technologies, even if it messed with their sacred competitive environment (see the CPMa crowd -- nearly everyone uses widescreen there, which frankly shocked me).

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A few different reasons.

1. Compression and stream quality. The more details there are on a stream the more data is required to draw this detail without it looking like a friday night vomit.

2. Popular demand. Most people who are genuinely interested in Quake play the game like this and don't want to sit watching a bunch of textures that only serve to detract from what is going on on the screen. And no offense, but generally speaking only people who aren't very good at Quake are the people who keeps putting this question of pimping the visuals forward.

For instance I got an pretty awesome rig that I upgraded only a few months ago with a new ... everything. Now I still play Quake with no textures, low detail on bezier patches and no bloom etc. This is because the game is better like this from my perspective. The bezier patches are actually showing where the map clips so I don't put rockets in my own face. Or hit a lip with a rail instead of the other guy because I thought that there was nothing there.

The textures in particular is because it makes it a lot more relaxed. Playing Quake demands a lot of a person. And the clearer the visual feed to me is the better. Less margin of error and easier to spot small things like a foot sticking out or whatever.

Actually. QL.TV started their broadcasting with having the graphics pumped out to the max. They didn't even run with the Keel sport model and skin. But as time went on they soon switched to the more standard set up. In part due to people wishing for it. As the streams were worse off for not having it. And also as they realized the benefits of it themselves.

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My opinion, being an avid OSP player nearly a decade ago, is that people should let go of all of that and move on. In my experience, it perhaps made a difference back then (again, mostly because of the 125 fps requirement, which is missing from CPMa vq3 because arQon fixed it, and is also missing from Quake Live, the standard "version" of competitive Q3 these days), but these days I think people use it because they feel used to it after all these years.

The other technical reason to at least play in low-res (this has nothing to do with picmip, etc) was that monitors at the time could only support a refresh rate that would work perfectly with 800x600. Seems like the number was like 120 Hz but I can't remember. Even if that's still an issue, fine, broadcast in 800x600 -- with texture details on, it's still a much more pleasant viewing experience for most people.

The monitor refresh issue also had a bit of an effect on mouse responsiveness, but gaming mice of today weren't available back then and it's just a different world now, technologically speaking.

You brought up the technical side of QL-TV. They're the same guys behind Brink-TV. The Brink matches look stellar and they stream just fine. Now, granted, Brink is a very different game with different needs, and lacks the ability to look like complete shit. Still, my point is all of that visual information is getting across the wire just fine and looks great. I don't think streaming issues are really a problem. As you said, the main concern is from community members who want picmip 5.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the "I need it to look like this" (meaning, 1999 style) attitude would melt away after some practice with graphics turned up. I mean, look at some of the beautiful frag videos. Very, very few complain about them, and they are a big part of entertaining the community, too.

Finally, player skill (or my skill, personally) has little to do with it. There are plenty of incredible QuakeWorld players, for instance, that play either at least with default textures (except for full-bright skins, etc) and sometimes opt for absolutely great-looking, high-res textures. Again, different game, but a very similar skill set is needed.

Many (most?) would say QW is even more demanding of a person than Q3, but I never liked to take sides on those debates. I love high level competitive deathmatch and have for nearly twenty years.

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I don't know why the streamers choose low quality. I agree, i'd rather see the high quality graphics. I think it can also attract new sponsors too. I'm sure a bunch of sponsors wouldn't think of sponsoring a game with ps1 graphics.

There is a North America online tournament running tomorrow ($1.2k prize pool). Its for preparation of the Dreamhack tournament. Players like Rapha, CZM, DKT, Zero4, and Dahang are in it. I will post up the info tomorrow.

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Mogul, it's not about fps anymore. It's all that "I'm a Pro, I must win, I must see the enemy 200%" attitude. Of course people who play it this way will dismiss the statement as noob bullshit. And I don't even copletely disagree with the 'reducing visual clutter' point, which in some cases (levels) might be valid, but turning the game into a two-color shooting gallery, basically reducing it to the core mechanics, seems excessive and wouldn't be fun to play for me.

As for QW (and probably many other competitve FPS), I would argue that many players actually do play like with shittified textures - just take a look at one of the "How does your QW look" threads.
In the end people are free to play the game how they like it, just a pity if streams force such settings on the viewer. But then again, don't these tournaments also have demo files to download?

Heh, it's kind of like pro FPS go all the way back to Pong level, the circle closes.

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just trying to reach out to as many duel players out there. the scene is so small now. anyway zotac cup is live right now. i updated the thread

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neg!ke said:

Mogul, it's not about fps anymore. It's all that "I'm a Pro, I must win, I must see the enemy 200%" attitude. Of course people who play it this way will dismiss the statement as noob bullshit. And I don't even copletely disagree with the 'reducing visual clutter' point, which in some cases (levels) might be valid, but turning the game into a two-color shooting gallery, basically reducing it to the core mechanics, seems excessive and wouldn't be fun to play for me.

The thing I hate most are the brightskins. Someone out there decided that there is no reason for lighting to make any difference in how a map is played, and that just annoys me as a level designer. As far as I'm concerned it's cheating, but like I've said elsewhere no one's ever going to change the status quo in Quake.

I can understand a forced skin override in comp play to prevent certain skins from having an advantage, but it makes absolutely no sense for brightskins to even exist, much less be allowed in a tournament game.

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Dragonsbrethren said:

blaj

To really annoy you they also allow you to run it basically without lighting at all.
If you want to play in the shadows. There are other games for that.

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Actually bright skins and simple items are the things I feel actually do make a difference in visibility and I think they're borderline necessary.

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so what do you guys think about the games played today? i think the tournaments with the exception of zotac were very unorganized. The CSN Duel stream tonight should be good though.

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Some of your info is outdated. Killsen for instance is replaced by Noctis and I read in an article on Playquake that doctor))) +1 isn't coming. Hopefully that isn't the case though.

For everyone's benefit though. Here is the schedule for Day 1:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2094242
Times are GMT+1.

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