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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang

1989 Tiananmen Incident 22th anniversary

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This incident, maybe not everyone heard about it or know much about it. It happens at 1989 June 4th in Beijing China. A whole groups of students, teachers and some citizens hope for democracy and speech freedom for China. Some liberation armies join their protest, the communists are shocked for this. Deng Xiaoping, that motherfucking bastard who is the "president" of China at that time ordered armies to shoot at those people gathering at Tiananmen, and trying to arrest leaders for the protest.

Chinese communists said this was a anti-china protest, no one dead. These bastards are just lying! This was actually a "love-china protest" just like the 4th May movement which happens in 1919, same position. It was very clear that armies have shoot at the people, tanks are used also.

It's 22 years since this incident happens. The communists are fucking around with people related to this incident, bring disturbance to them. It was said that they send polices to give dead peoples' relatives money, hoping they will shut the fuck up about this incident. Tiananmen mother was also banned from going out.

Tomorrow is the 22th anniversary, so does anyone know this incident? What do you guys think of it?

p.s Maybe it's not suitable to post this thread, but I am a chinese guy, to me this is a shame to china. I hope this thread may not be delete.

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It's a common misconception that the guy in the pic was run over. In truth, he stood there for a good long time, then was eventually pulled out of the way. It's speculated that the Chinese police hunted him down soon after and executed him. His name is still unknown, and probably will be forever. However, he shall always be remembered as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

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GeckoYamori said:

I take it you don't live in China right now? Or in Hong Kong?


You are right, I live in HK now, same as evocalvin.

Hong Kong a part of China!
Macau a part of China!
Taiwan, same a part of China(I diagree Taiwan Indepentence)!

I only known myself as chinese, not Hong Kong guy or Taiwanese.
Taiwanese = Hong Kong People = Macau People = Chinese

But I was born in Taiwan. So I speak Mandarin mainly, and I know how to read and write Simplified Chinese.

Danarchy said:

It's a common misconception that the guy in the pic was run over. In truth, he stood there for a good long time, then was eventually pulled out of the way. It's speculated that the Chinese police hunted him down soon after and executed him. His name is still unknown, and probably will be forever. However, he shall always be remembered as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man


His real name is known as Wang Weilin, he carry 2 plastic bag hoping to stop the tanks from moving in front. His ending was actually a mysterious case. Some said he pulled over by the tank. Some said he was killed by assault rifles during the massarce. Some said he was executed. And yep, he was known as a hero, also a representive of this incident.

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Well, if something like that is allowed to happen, then maybe China is not exactly communist?

And the "democratic freedoms" spin doctors seem to be so upset about, are regularly violated or otherwise perverted even in Western democracies, so you really aren't missing on anything.

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first time I heard about this, i've must been 7 years old, but since then I've only seen it rarely so this was a good update for my memory :)

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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang said:

This incident, maybe not everyone heard about it or know much about it.

I'd suggest that it is probably an incident that is pretty well known throughout many parts of the world. I even remember watching the footage at the time it happened.

[edit typo correction]

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Maes said:

Well, if something like that is allowed to happen, then maybe China is not exactly communist?

And the "democratic freedoms" spin doctors seem to be so upset about, are regularly violated or otherwise perverted even in Western democracies, so you really aren't missing on anything.


China is indeed communist only in name. Well, in the name of the party, anyway. Their economy is usually described as authoritarian capitalism.

And I'd say they're missing out on some important freedoms.

Most people I know in Canada know about Tiananmen Square tend to commemorate it by badmouthing China (as if that does any good). Some of us even learned about it in school a few years after it happened.

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China needs to loosen the fuck up in terms of censorship. Fuck the government, the people deserve a slightly better form of it similar to South Korea.

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Aliotroph? said:


What a poorly chosen example. So letting yet another brain-washing religion creep in is an "important freedom"? They should be glad their government shields them against religious crap to begin with.

And before you cite Western "religious freedom", let me remind you of the concepts of State Church, State Religion, or "privileged status" certain religions enjoy in otherwise perfectly democratic states, and plus they often actively and competitively fight other religions. A modern state needs none of that crap, and religions only coexist with regimes that can have some use for them. Communism has none by definition, so that's a quite incompatible "freedom".

And even if you consider censoship etc., even the West does conduct internal censorship and psyops against their own people when it would be politically inconvenient to just let the whole truth seep through. I don't care if one is called "communism" and the other "political activism" or whatever shitty buzzword they will come up next.

Mr. Chris said:

China needs to loosen the fuck up in terms of censorship. Fuck the government, the people deserve a slightly better form of it similar to South Korea.


I surely hope mainland Chinese aren't as eager to suck on American cocks as the South Koreans were.

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Communist principles will always be abandoned in the long run. In the end, it's just about power for those types of regimes. Even North Korea has some "free trade zones".

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My father had visited China in 1988, where they were much more "uptight" than today. They were the years where timid opening were starting to be done, and his stories of how e.g. they were restricted from interacting too much with the locals, had guides and an appointed party commissar following them etc. were not entirely dissimilar from North Korea travellers' accounts.

Yet, he had a heated debate with his Chinese colleagues because, in his opinion, they were doing everything wrong and creating a bad name for Communism, due to the widespread poverty and apparent neglect of the state (yeah, my father is a convinced Marxist). He found the way they ran thing anything but Marxist e.g. a bicycle costed several monthly salaries for an average Chinese proletarian worker, while it should be the State guaranteeing such a basic need, seeing how private motorized transportation was banned. Needless to say, they were speechless, and didn't know what to reply.

And yet, they bickered over trivial "ideological" matters such as e.g. when my father offered them a can of Coca Cola bought from a vending machine on the Great Wall (for tourists only, obviously), they were very reluctant at first, then had a VERY heated debate with the commissar following them like a shadow (with plenty of finger-waving from his part), and in the end they settled down on "accepting them but not drinking them in public in front of their own people". Yeah, solid ideology, no shit.

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Enjay said:

I'd suggest that it is probably an incident that is pretty well known throughout many parts of the world.

I'd go rather further than that and say it is one of the pivotal events of the 20th century (with the tank guy one of its great symbolic images). Not just for the loss of life, but as a sign that China was not going to follow the path of Eastern Europe. If things had gone differently in China in 1989, we'd be looking at very different global economics and politics right now and in the decades ahead.

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Grazza said:

If things had gone differently in China in 1989, we'd be looking at very different global economics and politics right now and in the decades ahead.


Like 200 million Chinese prostitutes filling the streets of Europe, America and Australia? :-p

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Here is a quick doc that was made to commemorate the twentieth anniversary of the incident. I suggest if you don't know the history of the youth revolution you should probably watch it.

EDIT: Now with link!

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Maes said:

What a poorly chosen example. So letting yet another brain-washing religion creep in is an "important freedom"? They should be glad their government shields them against religious crap to begin with.


Their government does nothing whatsoever to shield them from that religious crap. They simply try to exert control over "patriotic" churches. Christians, especially Catholics, resent this, since they figure they, rather than China, should be picking their bishops.

The point is they stop all organized groups that aren't affiliated with the state. The scary part is most Chinese people I've met don't see this as being very wrong. They honestly think uncontrolled people will destroy civilization in a matter of weeks without a strong government.

I do of course agree that religion and superstition need to go away. They do not need to go away under threat/use of force, though. That doesn't work.

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Aliotroph? said:

The point is they stop all organized groups that aren't affiliated with the state.


And they should. Almost any non-state affiliated group in that part of the world MUST be controlled/affiliated with some foreign power, and it can come under many different forms: churches, "pro-democray", "NGOs", etc. but all potentially anti-communist and Western agents. In Western states, this form of suppression is more limited because it only needs to be directed specifically vs those who openly proclaim themselves to be "communist" or even simply "socialist" or "leftist", not vs everyone and in general only vs relatively isolated minorities. But it doesn't make it any more acceptable in my eyes, just because it's done with a softer veil.

Aliotroph? said:

The scary part is most Chinese people I've met don't see this as being very wrong. They honestly think uncontrolled people will destroy civilization in a matter of weeks without a strong government.


And they have a very good point, at that. Just see what happens where every moderately powerful lobby/pressure group can impose their whims, while supposedly sovereign governments passively watch. My country, Greece, is a very good example of that, but the US is also pretty fucked up, where everyone with enough thickness to file a lawsuit can exert pressure.

Most forms of political activism, at least the way I've come to know them, are often driven by special interest groups, rather than spontaneity or "good citizens", and in particular in a Communist state they are all potential foreign agents. So they have a point very well taken, in fearing them. A devil that you do know is better than one you don't.

Aliotroph? said:

I do of course agree that religion and superstition need to go away. They do not need to go away under threat/use of force, though. That doesn't work.


I'll agree that even force isn't effective, at least not for long. E.g. even in Albania, which was self-proclaimed the first "Atheist state", Islam gained widespread popularity just a year after the fall of the old regime. But that is just more paranoia fuels for those governments, which have to literally watch their flanks from 1000 sides.

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Maes said:

Well, if something like that is allowed to happen, then maybe China is not exactly communist?

At least he got paid, would have been different if he was a member of Falun Gong.

"It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice." - Deng Xiaoping

Maes later said:

Like 200 million Chinese prostitutes filling the streets of Europe, America and Australia? :-p

Won't happen while the One Child Policy is in force, what we'll more likely see is tens of millions of Chinese bachelors shopping for foreign brides.

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Maes said:

Well, if something like that is allowed to happen, then maybe China is not exactly communist?

And the "democratic freedoms" spin doctors seem to be so upset about, are regularly violated or otherwise perverted even in Western democracies, so you really aren't missing on anything.


Chinese communists said China is now doing communism, and yep it seems that there's no communism anymore after Deng Xiaoping's power rised up. Mao Zedong this horrible killer(Communists and some stupid chinese known him as hero or even "Father of China") indeed have put communism at the whole China by "Great Leep Forward", "Culture Revolution" etc. This leds China being fucked up to nothing, that's why Deng Xiaoping suggested for open-door policy. However he just only hopes for power, money, and it seems he has mental problem when he was too old.

I heard that news of ipad teenager. Actually chinese people who wants ipad are too much. Not long ago some Beijing residents fight against each other in Sanlitun because of ipad. This kind of case is now very common in China. Actually traditional chinese culture and morals are being fucked up by communists since 1966. It seems that the government wants to build up chinese culture again. But don't get tricked by them, they do this just for money! I will chop my head off if they really do this for China's good.

Enjay said:

I'd suggest that it is probably an incident that is pretty well known throughout many parts of the world. I even remember watching the footage at the time it happened.

[edit typo correction]


I don't know if same thing ever happens on USA or not. But it was really once happens on Taiwan and South Korea, the 228 Massarce and 518 Massarce. The church thing is also common in China nowadays.

The communists always afraid of religion groups, so they keep trying to use the best way to keep their mouth shut. There's a good case of Tibetians and people in Xinjiang, people hopes to stop the government by ruining their religion and culture. Now Mongolians do this protest too. It was said that some Han people go to Inner Mongolia for money, they ruin the lands and bring pollution. Mongolians do the protest, now the government send polices and armies to keep their mouth shut. Example of ways are arresting and imprisons.

GreyGhost said:

Won't happen while the One Child Policy is in force, what we'll more likely see is tens of millions of Chinese bachelors shopping for foreign brides.


One Child Policy sucks. It seems that communists do this for population control, but actually it is a killing policy. If a family have 2 child, they may forced to kill the daughter or send one out the street. That's also one of the reason why there's so much child workers in China, especailly mines of Shanxi and Henan, as well as child beggars. It is also heard that government officers will check the family's population. If it was checked that there's 2 or more child, then that family will certainly being fucked, in that case sucks to be them. And Falun Gong isn't very trustful, they are a certain type of religion of a mixed of Taoism, Buddhism, White Lotus etc. They always mentioned about forced kidney pickups and leaving of chinese communist. However I don't think they are really telling the truth. A friend of Hubei have talked with me in msn about Falun Gong not long ago, he discovered that a Jiang Zemin also leave the party.

Ai Weiwei still havn't released yet, I think he will not be released this year. Perhaps he will disappears for ever, or being sentenced to death without anyone knowing about it. US have asked China to stop bring disturbance to democratic supporters, I am sure China will ignore it. China now have great powers and economy powers, the communists will just think US is a baby. Indeed United Nations just a shit and useless international community, they just done nothing for this Tiananmen incident.

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Just saw 'the china question' documentary on old media tv which mentioned this a bit (mostly about manufacturing going to china). One guy said many in china know about the tank man but there's a sort of don't ask don't tell gag order. Even if someone knows about it, they might play ignorant when asked on video to avoid attracting attention from the government. Watch out for astroturfing from the 50 cent army when reading about china:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army

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I had known about the incident (at least in name) since around high school several years ago, however I never fully understood what the situation was about or the circumstances surrounding what happened. Thank you for your post Daiyu_Xiaoxiang, I feel slightly more educated :)

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gggmork said:

Just saw 'the china question' documentary on old media tv which mentioned this a bit (mostly about manufacturing going to china). One guy said many in china know about the tank man but there's a sort of don't ask don't tell gag order. Even if someone knows about it, they might play ignorant when asked on video to avoid attracting attention from the government. Watch out for astroturfing from the 50 cent army when reading about china:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army


50 Cent Army? These bastards are can be simply described as "Internet Commentators or "Internet Secret Spys". They usually disguised themselves as normal residents or internet guys, they are hired by the government to say good things to the communists, or try to fuck different political points internets guys. Sometimes they may even spy on internet, then tell the government about internet situation. The government found problem, they will forced to delete that website and then arrest the adminstrator. These bastards are very commonly found in China, now even in HK and Macau. It's not easy to get rid of them. You are right, most people doesn't dare to mention about tank man in mainland china's website because they are worried about 50 Cent Army. I can say these armies are found mostly in Baidu and Sina. The chief of Baidu is a motherfucker who do things for communists and likes money a lot.

Kirby said:

I had known about the incident (at least in name) since around high school several years ago, however I never fully understood what the situation was about or the circumstances surrounding what happened. Thank you for your post Daiyu_Xiaoxiang, I feel slightly more educated :)


lol thanks! :) I think Qaatar may also know this incident. Although he is only a bit older than me, but he once talk with me about the incident, his youtube avatar(Black Monkey) is somehow related to this incident.


Speaking of Tiananmen Incident, I always thought about this song sung by Anita Mui(A HK singer, but already dead):



Translation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstained_Glory

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Enjay said:
I'd suggest that it is probably an incident that is pretty well known throughout many parts of the world.

We all heard Roger Waters singing about his yellow rose.

Aliotroph? said:
Their economy is usually described as authoritarian capitalism.

Perhaps in some "libertarian" blog? It's pretty much a huge country (and the biggest country on Earth) that has inherited both communist and capitalist influences in order to manage itself today. Its economic measures are much more planned out and measured than in many western countries that sit more on their asses and wait for "industries" to take the initiative. Interestingly, it's the West that is economically stagnant, not a slew of more statist countries that are growing more. It really gets old when people start implying that authoritarianism is unique to the state. As if "normal" capitalism were anything but an authoritarian process creating cliques or groups that concentrate economic means.

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myk said:

Its economic measures are much more planned out and measured than in many western countries that sit more on their asses and wait for "industries" to take the initiative. Interestingly, it's the West that is economically stagnant, not a slew of more statist countries that are growing more.

The West's economic stagnation is largely the result of corporations taking the initiative and setting up factories in cheap labour states like China - which in turn fuels their industrial and economic development. Multinational corporations have the morals of she-cats, so you should expect their executives to be able to sing "Stars and Stripes Forever" or "March of the Volunteers" with equal gusto.

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Depends on what you're using as a benchmark for comparison. A minimum wage employee in Australia can expect to be paid about eleven times what their counterpart in Guangdong province earns and more than twenty times the minimum wage paid in some parts of Chongqing.

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True, though there is starting to be a move away from China to countries like Vietnam and Laos by companies looking to get (even) cheaper labour.

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