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Sharessa

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

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Macro11_1 said:

Wow... really? You believe that the whole world is black and white?

So what your telling me is BY YOUR OWN EXAMPLE that if YOU were dying from some sort of wound, and I was hell bent on getting you to the hospital in time to save you from bleeding out YOU WOULD STOP ME FROM SPEEDING?
really?


Uh yeah. You're endangering the lives of the people on the road, yourself, AND the wounded child in your car, you moron. Thats why the correct procedure during a fire in a large building is to quietly walk outside through the fire exits in an orderly fashion. Panicking causes more trouble than it prevents.

Macro11_1 said:

How about if you were starving in the street, you would stop me from feeding you?


No, Of course I wouldn't. The police would because I need to clean myself up and start filling out job applications so I can be beneficial to city I live in.

Quast said:

You see, this is the entire point. The fact that there needs to be 'permissible ways' to give people food. Can you explain why something like this is illegal in the first place? Is it dangerous to society in some way?


If people set up some kinda "Feed The Homeless" camp in my front yard and all the homeless people from philly swarm into my neighborhood asking me for change every time i go outside I'd probably want to move out my neighborhood.

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40oz said:

No, Of course I wouldn't. The police would because I need to clean myself up and start filling out job applications so I can be beneficial to city I live in.

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I've never been to a Wal-Mart that didn't have a disabled person working there. Got any more brain busters?

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40oz said:

Uh yeah. You're endangering the lives of the people on the road, yourself, AND the wounded child in your car, you moron. Thats why the correct procedure during a fire in a large building is to quietly walk outside through the fire exits in an orderly fashion. Panicking causes more trouble than it prevents.


Ok, well I would much rather have the child alive than live the rest of my life as a hollow shell thinking I could have done more. Also, if that is moronic... I'd hate to see what smart is.


No, Of course I wouldn't. The police would because I need to clean myself up and start filling out job applications so I can be beneficial to city I live in.


Wow, ok... so its just that simple. You clean up and start filling out job applications and that is "beneficial" to the city you "live" in. Ok, and if they wont hire you because you have no references? If you do get a job and you can't possibly support your self by paying rent + food? Also, with all these distractions, what about your vices like accepting hand outs, you don't need those to comfort you... they just hold you back.

If people set up some kinda "Feed The Homeless" camp in my front yard and all the homeless people from Philly swarm into my neighborhood asking me for change every time i go outside I'd probably want to move out my neighborhood.


Yeah, or I would try and think of a way to help clean up the homeless people... oh wait... that's what they are trying to do. I mean come on, you don't think that these food camp faculty wouldn't try to think of a way to help these homeless people out of the streets? They could be talking to them. They could be observing the homeless so they could possibly come up with a way to help them. At least they are attempting to deal with the problem rather than running away, or do you want to say these people with good intentions are not capable of that?

You think a law maker who hardly ever deals with the homeless has the experience to deal with these homeless?

http://orlandofoodnotbombs.org/ordinancetext.html
'...'
Excluded from this definition are activities of City licensed or contracted concessionaires, lessees, or licensees.

Why do we need a license for this? There are only a few reasons that come to my mind:
1.some sort of criminal activity was recently found at a large food gathering.
2.some one is profiting off of this.
3.some one is bent on making life harder for the homeless, in what is regarded by 40oz as a form of tough love.

It doesn't matter if the goal was to do something that is morally correct, they took an illegal course of action to do it. There are more permissible ways to give food to the homeless and they were just being ignorant.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-homeless-feedings-arrests-20110601,0,7226362.story
[P.8]"Orlando Food Not Bombs has been feeding the homeless breakfast on Mondays for several years and dinner on Wednesdays for five years."
[P.3]"The group lost a court battle in April, clearing the way for the city to enforce the ordinance."
[P.5]""They intentionally violated the statute," said Lt. Barbara Jones, an Orlando police spokeswoman."


Yes they took illegal action to do it because they are protesting their loss of rights to help the homeless. They did it intentionally, is it wrong in the eyes of the law? yes. Is the law right? well as of April, yes... according to the Government. According to the majority of the posters here? No, it is not correct. That is what you need to see.

I've never been to a Wal-Mart that didn't have a disabled person working there. Got any more brain busters?

And if the number of disabled people > than the number of wal-marts?

Look, I may be wrong, but right now I believe I am right, and your calling me a moron is not helping you convince me of anything.. how ever I do want to apologize for any of my own condescending attitude in my posts, some times my own feelings can get the best of me as they can of any one else.

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40oz said:

If people set up some kinda "Feed The Homeless" camp in my front yard and all the homeless people from philly swarm into my neighborhood asking me for change every time i go outside I'd probably want to move out my neighborhood.

This didnt take place in your front lawn, or anyone's for that matter. It took place in a public park. And 25-30 people is hardly a 'swarm'.

Regardless, you answered my question perfectly. It's illegal because people don't like the homeless dirtying up their neighborhoods with their filthy homelessness...and pretty much nothing more.

I've never been to a Wal-Mart that didn't have a disabled person working there. Got any more brain busters?

Homeless people can't get jobs because while many of them suffer from some form of physical or mental disability or alcoholism, most if not all have
1: No permanent residence. These are homeless people you know. You can't get a job without it. Also because of this, they are dirty and wear old clothes. No shower or laundry in the cardboard box houses. And whil;e homeless shelters may provide these things, many avoid them as they are not safe places to be.
2: No family, no contacts or references.
3: Little to no recent job experience. Employers are keen to question if and why someone that applies about what they were doing when they haven't worked in some time. Maybe some are sympathetic to the idea of someone being homeless, but in this economy? I doubt it. Why hire someone with little to no job experience when they can hire someone with experience?
4: Depending on where they live, little to no real access to transportation. Probably a minor point for many, but a serious one for those that don't live in urban city centers or cities with terrible public transportation.

It's not even close to stupid say that all they need to do is bootstraps themselves to apply at walmart or mcdonalds. These people have serious hurdles to overcome...and there are people such as yourself that simply want them to go away and not be seen. Which if why laws such as that being discussed exist.

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I'm fairly sure 40oz is either a total douchebag or a complete troll. First he goes around insulting us for being gamers on a gaming forum, then he calls us out us for being good Samaritans.

I've known a few homeless people myself. The majority are former mental patients who were released from facilities and didn't have any relatives to take care of them. A lot of others either have serious drug addiction problems or are disabled. None of these people have a real chance of getting a job. There are also the people who are in a temporary situation, and just need a few hand outs until they can get themselves back on their feet.

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Macro11_1 said:

Ok, well I would much rather have the child alive than live the rest of my life as a hollow shell thinking I could have done more. Also, if that is moronic... I'd hate to see what smart is.


The correct course of action is to know the fastest route to the hospital, drive swiftly but respectful to the fact that there is an injured person in your vehicle. Your vehicle does not have sirens so you can't weave in and out of traffic and disobey traffic laws.

Quast said:

This didnt take place in your front lawn, or anyone's for that matter. It took place in a public park. And 25-30 people is hardly a 'swarm'.


The park is public, meaning it belongs to the state for recreational use, not organizations. And Lake Eola Park looks pretty enclosed in the middle of town. You can put 25 Hell Knights in a map like MAP16: Suburbs and it's a piece of cake. Put 25 Hell Knights in a 1024 map and you cant get away from them.

Macro11_1 said:

Wow, ok... so its just that simple. You clean up and start filling out job applications and that is "beneficial" to the city you "live" in. Ok, and if they wont hire you because you have no references? If you do get a job and you can't possibly support your self by paying rent + food? Also, with all these distractions, what about your vices like accepting hand outs, you don't need those to comfort you... they just hold you back.


What is it not simple? I mean, I'm imagining myself stranded in the city with no job, no money, no food and no place to live, and alcoholism. I have to capacity to understand that before I was drinking I had friends and a place to live, and now that I am drinking on a regular basis, I've lost everything. I'd go to a rehabilitation clinic and sign up, meanwhile using public restroom sinks as a water source. Attend rehabilitation, make friends, eventually feel more relieved. Go to any public establishment and ask if I can use their phone and phonebook. Look up anyone I can think of, friends, family memnbers, call and tell them I'm struggling to help myself, would it be alright if I stay for 3 days while I take better care of myself and fill out job applications. Ask to have clothes they don't wear anymore. I'm likely to get a call from somewhere, even if it's something shitty like mopping floors at a gas station. If I give two fucks about having decent living conditions I'd work my ass off to protect my employment there. Restrict my spending on bread and only bread until I've accumulated some income. Talk to some friends from rehab about living together in an apartment and splitting rent. Even working at minimum wage you can afford to buy normal groceries and work myself up to a manageable lifestyle. I practice things like this all the time. Like when I receive my check at work, I deposit everything, withdraw $15 and see how well I can last an entire week with just that money. As long as I maintain a good relationship with my family and friends, even if I were to lose everything I have I'd still have some way of getting back on my feet.

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Danarchy said:

being good Samaritans.


Excuse me? What are you doing that's so good? Posting links to articles you don't agree with? I'm sure you're saving thousands of lives with that.

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40oz said:

Excuse me? What are you doing that's so good? Posting links to articles you don't agree with? I'm sure you're saving thousands of lives with that.

Okay, not being good Samaritans, but at least thinking like them. Cut me some slack, it's the first thing in the morning. At least the way the rest of us are talking, we'd probably be likely to help out anyone who needed it. Judging from what you've been posting, if anyone ever asked you for help, you'd probably just kick their teeth in for not being bootstrappy enough.

40oz said:

What is it not simple? I mean, I'm imagining myself stranded in the city with no job, no money, no food and no place to live, and alcoholism.

Oh boy, here we go.

I have to capacity to understand that before I was drinking I had friends and a place to live, and now that I am drinking on a regular basis, I've lost everything. I'd go to a rehabilitation clinic and sign up, meanwhile using public restroom sinks as a water source.

Yes, because a person can just decide to not be an addict. It's just that simple! I don't know why we even HAVE addicts anymore! What a bunch of lazy assholes they are!

Also, the relapse rates even with rehab are fairly high. Good luck on curing your addiction there.

Attend rehabilitation, make friends, eventually feel more relieved. Go to any public establishment and ask if I can use their phone and phonebook.

Unless they kick you out for being as smelly homeless person.

Look up anyone I can think of, friends, family memnbers, call and tell them I'm struggling to help myself, would it be alright if I stay for 3 days while I take better care of myself and fill out job applications. Ask to have clothes they don't wear anymore.


Except for that the reason you're living on the streets is because you HAVE no close friends or family members. It's been so long you don't even know where anyone you knew is living. All your friends are either homeless or addicts. Oh wait, there's your ex, but she won't have anything to do with you after you beat her in an drunken stupor.

I'm likely to get a call from somewhere, even if it's something shitty like mopping floors at a gas station.

Yeah, just wait for that call...OH WAIT, you don't have a phone because you're homeless. Even if you DID manage to find anyone who cared to take you in, no one is going to hire you because of your large gap of employment history.

If I give two fucks about having decent living conditions I'd work my ass off to protect my employment there. Restrict my spending on bread and only bread until I've accumulated some income.


I hope you're not being literal, because you can't survive on bread alone.

Talk to some friends from rehab about living together in an apartment and splitting rent.

Yes, friends from rehab. Just hope one of them doesn't relapse and skip rent, lose their job, or get you hooked again.

Even working at minimum wage you can afford to buy normal groceries and work myself up to a manageable lifestyle. I practice things like this all the time. Like when I receive my check at work, I deposit everything, withdraw $15 and see how well I can last an entire week with just that money. As long as I maintain a good relationship with my family and friends, even if I were to lose everything I have I'd still have some way of getting back on my feet.

Okay, that's all well and good. The problem is we're not talking about you or me here. Sure, maybe in your present situation you'd be fine because you aren't an addict, are of stable mind, and have friends and family to help you out. Hell, I know that if it wasn't for the friends and family I have, I'd be homeless myself.

The thing is we're talking about other people here, from totally different backgrounds. These are people who wound up in their situation because they HAD no good friends or close family. These are people who are mentally unstable and were in a facility for years. These are people whose addictions have caused them to lose everything, even their loved ones. These are people whose literal paranoia keeps them in fear of calling their family. These are people who have been unemployed so long that no one will ever hire them, especially in the current economy. They are not you and me. We can't really understand their situation, so we really shouldn't judge.

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I still don't see what you're getting at. I'd be pleasantly surprised if every one of those homeless people lived without a family or any friends or anything before they became alcoholics or drug addicts or whatever it is that ultimately forwarded them into homelessness. They clearly had to have done something, not just anything, but something that they deliberately chose to do in order to get themselves in the situation they are in. You don't just stop having a family or friends or anyone that can care about you, you fuck them over enough for them to dissassociate themselves from you.

You're being incredibly oblivious if you think these things just happen to you. The only person that has control over you is yourself.

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40oz said:

I still don't see what you're getting at.

Let me spell it out. Most of these people are R-E-T-A-R-D-ED. They can't work because they are on another planet. One time when I was on the subway I was sitting beside a female hobo who was obviosu under meds for her schizo and she was still seeing "Little animal" running through the train. Another guy that, to this day, waits outside the Massy Hall with no legs has movement of only one arm. They are, to your definition, useless to society. This may be the case, but treat them as humans, not raccoons to rummage on their own and succumb to the cold.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if every one of those homeless people lived without a family or any friends or anything before they became alcoholics or drug addicts or whatever it is that ultimately forwarded them into homelessness. They clearly had to have done something, not just anything, but something that they deliberately chose to do in order to get themselves in the situation they are in. You don't just stop having a family or friends or anyone that can care about you, you fuck them over enough for them to disassociate themselves from you.

It's not always about a person purposely separating themselves from their family from substance abuse. Once my father kicks, I have no immediate family left and none of my prick-head acquaintances will even offer assistance. Sometimes it's dog eat dog, and not all dogs win. Most homeless people are old and without family. Most of their kin consists of offspring or grandkids who have their own family and they really don't give a shit about them. Just because you have relations, doesn't mean they give a fuck about you.

You're being incredibly oblivious if you think these things just happen to you. The only person that has control over you is yourself.

They do. It is extremely difficult to survive on minimum, especially in the city and especially with a mental disability. Some people on these boards could be a couple pay checks away from loosing their apartments. I just hope they have family that are kind enough to lend a helping hand, because mine wouldn't.

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40oz said:

They clearly had to have done something, not just anything, but something that they deliberately chose to do in order to get themselves in the situation they are in. You don't just stop having a family or friends or anyone that can care about you, you fuck them over enough for them to dissassociate themselves from you.

You're being incredibly oblivious if you think these things just happen to you. The only person that has control over you is yourself.

You have to be incredibly naive, or just...I don't fucking know. You have an incredibly simplistic view of the world. Not everyone grows up in a white picket fence cul-de-sac with caring family and neighbors. Lots of people grow up with family members that never gave a fuck to begin with and/or have serious issues of their own. Lots of people aren't people persons and have few if any friends. There are quite a few individuals out there with literally no one to turn to.

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ITT: 40oz is an idealist and conformist asshole at the same time. In other news, water is wet and goods can be purchased with money.

On topic: This is a really, really stupid law. Who the hell thought this up? Who thought this was a good idea? Who green-lighted it? This is just mind-blowingly stupid. Help people, get arrested. I mean, really.

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Hehe, someone should email this thread to orlandofoodnotbombs so they can get a good laugh.

Btw, if you liked the locked feeding compound, you'll get a kick out of this too:

http://www.orlandofoodnotbombs.org/sidewalks2002.html
http://www.orlandofoodnotbombs.org/weeklypoorboxes.html

Basically, the big picture is that Orlando wants to pretend homeless and poor (almost homeless) don't exist. Like they're just going to be able to pass punitive legislation that makes the problem go away. And they're doing it in the shittiest economy since 1929.

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The law is there to prevent homeless people gathering around their public parks. The city wants them to disperse and Food Not Bombs is going to that park enticing them to stay. Homeless people are sleeping on the benches, and bothering children to give them money or food. It's unsafe and an eyesore. People can't even enjoy their community's park while homeless people wait anxiously for the Food Not Bombs crew to come back and feed them and make them feel like it's okay to use public property to live on.

The city doesn't like that. If these homeless people want food, they gotta go somewhere else. Food Not Bombs does not have permission to make homeless people feel welcome to overrun the park. None of you are looking at this scenario in detail at all.

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40oz said:

ARE THERE NO PRISONS?! ARE THERE NO WORKHOUSES?!


40oz is young and needs to work out the kinks in his personalty by purging opinions like these. No one could be so oblivious yet so bitter. I hope.

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Something tells me 40oz is a spoiled rich teenager who has been taught his whole life to be of the BEGONE, PEASANT!!! mentality. Pretty much no idea how the world works on lower standards.

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I'm actually struggling to become a homeowner sometime next year with no college education and a near-minimum wage job. So yeah.

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40oz said:

I'm actually struggling to become a homeowner sometime next year with no college education and a near-minimum wage job.


I'll take "unrealistic expectations" for $200, Alex.

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I'll keep you in my prayers.

It's really not even half as difficult as you make it sound like it is. Seperate things you want from the things you need, restrict your spending only on things you need, take things that are provided to you for granted, save 90% of your paychecks in a savings account, talk to a realtor. This is the course of action I'm taking and it's working swimmingly.

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I hope for the best for you, although I feel that you are a step away from becoming what you are working so hard to convince people to ignore and hope they can figure everything out themselves. Good luck in life, however, I do hope your plan goes well for you.

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40oz said:

restrict your spending only on things you need, take things that are provided to you for granted, save 90% of your paychecks in a savings account, talk to a realtor. This is the course of action I'm taking and it's working swimmingly.

Good for you. Maybe you should include the internet in the list of unnecessary things to sacrifice. Or do you consider telling people how to live their lives on an internet forum and spouting out "hurr durr homeless people are an eyesore in public parks so it should be illegal to help them" bullshit a necessary part of your life that you need to survive?

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I'm against giving money to beggars, as I'm sure that's business for them. Food on the other hand doesn't sound so profitable and someone who begs for food instead of money is pathetic. Therefore I don't see the crime in giving someone food, because I can't fuel the beggar business with food. Laws putting me in jail for that are evil.

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hex11 said:

Basically, the big picture is that Orlando wants to pretend homeless and poor (almost homeless) don't exist. Like they're just going to be able to pass punitive legislation that makes the problem go away. And they're doing it in the shittiest economy since 1929.

The city I live in is actually doing the same thing. This city was built on industry, and is mainly made up of poor people working for the shipyard. Yet, they've decided to make it a tourist town for no explicable reason, and so are basically leveling all the poor housing and businesses to put up condos and high-class storefronts that are not selling because there aren't any wealthy people around here. They even leveled all the government housing to put up condos, so hundreds of unemployable and disabled people (including my friend's autistic brother) are now without homes. There are now just blocks and blocks of empty storefront just sitting around, making the place look like a ghost town. Meanwhile, the homeless population has swelled, and there are hundreds of homeless people living in this one large, wooded park. People living around the park are now being burglarized on a regular basis, and they keep finding dead bodies in the woods. What a lovely tourist destination they've created!

As for my own situation, I literally cannot move out of my dad's basement (which I was forced into when my old job decided to cut all their hours) because I make on average $200 a week (a good paying job around here), and apartments around here cost at minimum $800 a month (before utilities).

40oz said:

save 90% of your paychecks in a savings account

If I literally put 90% of my paychecks in my savings, I would be starving, unable to get my car to work, and unable to pay any of my bills. You have to be making some damn good money to be putting away that much into savings and still be living. Food and gas cost me at least $70/week alone.

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Danarchy said:

If I literally put 90% of my paychecks in my savings, I would be starving, unable to get my car to work, and unable to pay any of my bills. You have to be making some damn good money to be putting away that much into savings and still be living. Food and gas cost me at least $70/week alone.


I had a good-paying IT job before 2010, a single guy making well over the national median family income. Despite living frugally, I only managed to save around 70% of my salary. The rest got eaten up by apartment rent, bills, food, gas, etc.

Housing is the biggest killer. Low income folks can barely afford a cheap/crappy apartment, and often remain one paycheck away from homelessness. Some of them only manage by working several fulltime jobs and/or cramming lots of roommates into the same place (probably in violation of their rental contract). Immigrants (legal or not) tend to live with their extended families as a survival mechanism, which was once also the norm for americans (and may become again). Middle-class folks tend to waste their money through mortgages and expensive luxuries, and so housing also accounts for a huge chunk of their budget. When you keep buying stuff, you need bigger and bigger places to store it...

Anyway, if you ever need to move out of your dad's basement and can't find another reasonable place to live, your best bet might be to temporarily live in your vehicle. Some are better than others (esp. vans or SUVs). Anyway, if all you've got is a car, it's still better than being homeless on the street. Here's some good info that you should probably get acquainted with, just in case:
http://cheaprvliving.com/
http://cheapgreenrvliving.com/
It helps to "know all the tricks" beforehand, rather than end up in a lost and confused state. I actually did live in my SUV for several months after my apartment lease expired, just as a test and for the experience. It was of course a less pleasant experience than the apartment, but it's manageable and some folks even seem to prefer it (esp. if they work in an area without affordable housing). When the beginning of summer arrived though (this is South Florida, btw) I had to put an end to it, and bought myself a used, small travel trailer that the SUV could handle. So now I've got all the expected amenities (including A/C), but my lot rent is 1/4 of what the apartment used to be, and I can move anytime by only turning in a written notice 2 weeks ahead of time (unlike most apartments where you're "locked in" to the lease until it expires).

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40oz said:

The city doesn't like that. If these homeless people want food, they gotta go somewhere else. Food Not Bombs does not have permission to make homeless people feel welcome to overrun the park. None of you are looking at this scenario in detail at all.

No, actually I already stated this. But thanks for repeating it. We know exactly why the law is in place, and are expressing why it's stupid. Criminalizing the homeless and the poor is nothing new to western society, but it's still sad to see put in place in modern times.

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Actually, Piggly-Wiggly's cater more to disabled people than Wal-Marts do quite frankly. Wal-Marts usually enjoy hiring older poeple because they "are sweet, and nice, and make good door greeters." Then you have the fat thirty yr olds running the video game aisles while the rest of the electronics are managed by Nerdy college kids who think they are the shit.

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Speaking of walmart, the one nearest me always has a bunch of RVs parked there (of various type, size, and age). In fact, some of them seem to sit there permanently (probably only moved to dump waste tanks and refill fresh water tank). I'm guessing that at least a few walmart employees actually live on-site, rent-free. I even once saw a converted school-bus, with roof air vents, solar panels, even a satellite dish. Last winter there were also a good number of regular vans (more or less obviously being used as shelter).

I stayed at some Walmarts in my SUV, but didn't like it too much because of the constant traffic and noise levels. It's hard to manage even with earplugs. Sam's Club was much better, since they close for the night.

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