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DoomUK

A question for atheists

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Disclaimer: I don't consider myself "religious". I think all religions are right, yet wrong simultaneously. I believe the belief in some kind of god or gods, the supernatural, an afterlife etc is basically plausible, it's just that we're dealing with the unknown and none of us therefore have any authority to be able to say what god or doctrine is authentic and what isn't.

With that out of the way. I know a lot many most practically all of you on here are atheists. I have no problem or qualm with that. It's your life and you can believe or disbelieve in anything you see fit. But I do have a question for you:-

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all? Why bother making friends, forming relationships, educating yourself, finding work, earning money, forming opinions, seeking pleasure and entertainment, avoiding pain and boredom, posting on internet forums, eating, drinking, having sex... when in 70 years or less it makes absolutely no difference whether you were a world-renowned something-or-other or you sat in the same spot for your entire life with muscle atrophy and rotting in your own feces? It's a choice that most of you make to do something with your lives, within the limitations of your individual abilities and strokes of fortune/misfortune. But if your consciousness ceases to exist when you die, then whatever effort you made during your brief stay here to make the most of your time and perhaps do your best to makes others' lives better, it was all for nothing. You're not going to be able to think "yup, I'm proud and content with what I did" or "you know, I wish I hadn't been a selfish loser" because the complex chemistry which makes such thoughts possible is no longer operational.

I'll put it out there that I find nothing scarier or more depressing than nothing itself. A constant reminder that whatever I'm doing with my life right now is a waste of time. Even if I've contributed to the happiness of others, their own consciousness will eventually expire and their lives will also be ultimately meaningless. And those who followed them, and those who followed them. It's... a haunting thought.

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DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all? Why bother making friends, forming relationships, educating yourself, finding work, earning money, forming opinions, seeking pleasure and entertainment, avoiding pain and boredom, posting on internet forums, eating, drinking, having sex... when in 70 years or less it makes absolutely no difference whether you were a world-renowned something-or-other or you sat in the same spot for your entire life with muscle atrophy and rotting in your own feces? It's a choice that most of you make to do something with your lives, within the limitations of your individual abilities and strokes of fortune/misfortune. But if your consciousness ceases to exist when you die, then whatever effort you made during your brief stay here to make the most of your time and perhaps do your best to makes others' lives better, it was all for nothing. You're not going to be able to think "yup, I'm proud and content with what I did" or "you know, I wish I hadn't been a selfish loser" because the complex chemistry which makes such thoughts possible is no longer operational.

Disclaimer: I'm agnostic, not atheist.

The way I see it, your question counters itself. If you think about Christianity and the paradise, in its case it you would be better in the long run to do nothing with your life to secure entrance into paradise. Something similar goes for any religion with a "reward system" combined with sins. In fact, atheists and agnostics who have nothing to look out for need to make the most of their lives to enjoy it. Those Christians and Muslims are free to "waste" their lives, after all, they've got an eternity left to enjoy in paradise with an infinite supply of virgins. But I, I've got only 70 years tops left! Better start getting drunk and sleeping around soon!

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DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all?

On the contrary - since there's nothing after this, life is even more precious. What you do in this life will affect your future generations and perhaps even humanity as a whole. Life is our opportunity to further the human race and we should take every advantage.

I'll put it out there that I find nothing scarier or more depressing than nothing itself.

That's a pretty scary thought, but if you spend all of your time dreading that, it's a sure-fire sign that you need to get out and do something with your life.

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I'm chemically programmed to want to live. It's as simple as that. I can try to come up with a list specific to me, but it would probably be bullshit.

The thought of there being nothing after death doesn't bother me at all. The only parts of death I find unsettling are the potential physical pain associated with it and the almost certain emotional pain it causes others.

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I appreciate the sincerity of your questioning. let's get stuck in!

DoomUK said:
I'll put it out there that I find nothing scarier or more depressing than nothing itself

I find it incredibly comforting. In fact, I am delighted that this is most probably the case.

Presumably the idea of an afterlife entails a universe that is true to a theist's position. In other words, it is a universe created not just by a being or series of beings who did so only to sit back and let it all pan out, but one who cares about the actions taken by those upon this or any other rock of a planet in the outskirts of one of the billions of galaxies populating the ether. Granted, it's perfectly possible that there exists an afterlife without taking a theist's position and even without taking a deist's one if you can conceive such a possibility, but the notion is purported most commonly as being linked to a god who hands out rewards for good behaviour.

Now my own position, the anti-theist's position, adds to the rejection of the idea of an all-powerful being that interferes with human affairs - the atheist position - by saying "isn't it wonderful that there isn't a shred of evidence for the existence of any such deity because the very idea of it is simply horrible." Why do I consider it so? Well, let's assume there was evidence for an intervening deity:

  1. Totalitarianism. Thought crime. I don't want to have to live in the fear that every possible thought against one doctrine (Who's to say the deity for which there is found evidence isn't the one worshipped by an entirely separate species from some other backwater of the universe?) could be held against me at the tribunal.
  2. The destruction of human development. You can forget about all the unanswered questions of the universe and the painstaking progress made by our predecessors in the spheres of science, morality and anthropology amongst others, because now there's a sole purpose to our existence and no need to satisfy human inquisition with the search for wonders that we might have some day come to fathom if only we didn't drop it all to follow the word of an unchallengeable and unalterable deity so we can all see each other later in some THEME PARK on pain of whatever punishment, if any.
  3. Being good to others for its own sake, not because it will earn you favour amongst the almighty. Human solidarity is a beautiful thing.
  4. Praise unending. I'm not sure what sort of personality this deity might have but if he or she is anywhere near as jealous and controlling as the god of Christianity then It'd be total lockdown on absolutely all forms of entertainment right across the board. Cultural diversity will largely disappear, at least within the realms of those who know the truth.
Once again I instil the possibility of the afterlife in a universe as depicted by either deist or atheist. If either of these were true then all 4 of the points I have just raised would probably be rendered obsolete, but to me the probability of an afterlife rests on the shoulders of the theist, who claims in most cases to know that there is one as well as the directions that need to be taken in order to get there.

So to finally answer your question:

The point with which I would otherwise fill my life, a life currently filled by a desire for fulfilling self-interests and as Bucket places it perfectly a desire to "affect future generations and perhaps even humanity as a whole," would most likely entail the destruction of free will, human development, human solidarity, cultural diversity, and promote a world so full of constant and ceaseless praise even, probably, after you arrive at your ultimate destination, the word nightmare would I think place the affair well into the realm of understatement.

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I believe as a human I am not an outside entity in the cycle of nature, but an integral part in the grand scheme that nature has intended. I believe that every bomb dropped, tree planted, Big Mac consumed has been predetermined my nature to happen from the very beginning. When we deplete our natural resources, we will be forced to use technology to progress as a species and thus usher in the next great evolutionary platform of life.

Also, it occurred to me that the idea of time, beginnings and ends are very much human concepts. The thought that something could always have existed seems to escape the mental grasp of human beings and thus created gods and creators to rationalize the irrational.

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Atheist here. The problem I always have with any sort of question pertaining to an afterlife is that it always singles out human beings (unless you think all the animals that ever lived are going to be up there in heaven as well). But why are humans really any different? Aside from the fact that our minds are capable of inventing the notion of an afterlife, we're no different to animals. In effect, we live for the same reasons they do. If there is a "greater purpose", no one's figured out what it is yet. Perhaps it is an empty existence if you have nothing to show for it once it's over, but it's the only one we know for certain we're going to have.

Also, 42.

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> realize existence is meaningless
> eat a box of donuts
> get a tummyache
> realize eating a box of donuts is a bad idea
> everything's back to normal

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If you're not going to be immortal in an afterlife, strive to become immortal in the memory of those who come after you.

Disclaimer: By doing good things and not a school shooting, preferably.

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A warning in advance, this is a late-night post and such the mania side of me may not be suppressed appropriately. I'm probably going to regret writing this purple prose in the morning.

I don't want to associate myself with any school of belief, but the way I see it, there are two sides to living. Pleasure, and compassion.
To enjoy the fruits of labor of our fellow inhabitants and of those whose lives ended a long time ago, to study and learn the accumulated knowledge of mankind.. that is the hedonistic side of life. You only have limited time after which you cease to exist, so we should enjoy life while it lasts, but at the same time, be compassionate to others trapped in this dirt ball.
To do to others what you would want to be done to you, and make others feel that life is worth living.. that is the humanitarian side of life. There must be a balance of power, or the other side will suffer. If one cares only for oneself and seeks pleasure without regard for their fellow man, the others suffer. If one dedicates himself solely to the service of others, they will die a laborer that had no time to enjoy living. Whether or not serving humankind is your passion is for you to decide, but the point is, make your time worthwhile to yourself and others.

As for death... it's an inevitable end for everything, one way or another. The best thing to do is to forget about it and value life. The way I see it, it's kind of like sleeping. You're in your bed, thinking of sleep and how you suddenly lose consciousness when the time comes. Eventually it just happens and you don't necessarily even remember how you fell asleep the next morning. Just don't think about it and it'll go fine.

The ultimate goal for humanity should be to break the barriers that separate us, to become wholly equal and to have life consist of a feeling of content. An utopistic thought, and as such an extremely unrealistic one. Still, to work for a future such as that, everyone can do something. Be good to your fellow man, uphold the virtues of justice and honor the ideals of truth. Certain attributes are hardcoded into humans, such as greed, pride and wrath. It would be close to impossible to eradicate such malefactors, so the next best thing is just being nice to your fellow inhabitants.

tl;dr enjoy and value life, be passionate and independent but don't be a dick to others.

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DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all?


Personally, I just find it makes life more precious. It makes me appreciate what I have right now, and also drives me to complete what goals I have within the time frame of my relatively short lifespan.

I'd like to think that what I have done with my life has had an impact on the world, whether it's shown through how I raised my children, or how I endeared my (potentially) millions of loving fans.

In the long term, when I'm dust, my matter will be recycled to create other elements, then eventually other lifeforms, then eventually a new star, possibly a new Earth, etc. In a way, I'll be around virtually indefinitely.

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DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all? Why bother making friends, forming relationships, educating yourself, finding work, earning money, forming opinions, seeking pleasure and entertainment, avoiding pain and boredom, posting on internet forums, eating, drinking, having sex... when in 70 years or less it makes absolutely no difference whether you were a world-renowned something-or-other or you sat in the same spot for your entire life with muscle atrophy and rotting in your own feces? It's a choice that most of you make to do something with your lives, within the limitations of your individual abilities and strokes of fortune/misfortune. But if your consciousness ceases to exist when you die, then whatever effort you made during your brief stay here to make the most of your time and perhaps do your best to makes others' lives better, it was all for nothing. You're not going to be able to think "yup, I'm proud and content with what I did" or "you know, I wish I hadn't been a selfish loser" because the complex chemistry which makes such thoughts possible is no longer operational.

First, even if I am atheistic/agnostic (same word as far as I'm concerned), I don't believe that after death there's nothing to do. It's just something I can't know. But anyway, the afterlife doesn't have to mean something religious like hell or Heaven and the thought of its existence shouldn't be dependent on religion. Some of you people take religion too literally.

Let's put it this way: can you explain why or how you became conscious (alive) in the first place? No? What exactly is the thing that makes animals different from other mechanisms? (What could happen if you somehow replicate the brain structure by using different materials? New being?) Then you can't know what happens after death. For all I assume, it can very well be a wonderful new experience after death, maybe I become one with the cosmos, maybe my consciousness gets to inhabit another highly complex natural construct. Or hell, even meet the Creator, why not. I just can't be pessimistic like you're saying there. And anyway, I'm trying to do all those things in order to be happy for short-term, which is only while I am alive.

Imagine you got to live very short before dying, such as being stillborn. Or less pathologically, a bug squashed as soon as encountered. Those poor souls haven't got much to be conscious about, and were soon (almost instantly) dead. Instant nothingness forever for those unlucky ones? I doubt it.

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It's simple - one day, I won't get to experience any of this anymore, so I want to enjoy my time here while I can. Or maybe I will get to experience this all again, in another life or something. I really don't know, but either way, I just have a desire to have a good time while I'm here.

Honestly, I think if anything, heaven would decrease my likeliness of doing anything to better my life or whatever. After all, with a little patience, I would eventually reach a state of eternal bliss once I died, so the need to improve my happiness here on Earth wouldn't be so important.

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geekmarine said:

After all, with a little patience, I would eventually reach a state of eternal bliss once I died, so the need to improve my happiness here on Earth wouldn't be so important.

Exactly, and I'm pretty sure that's how the monks act as well. Pointless.

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printz said:

First, even if I am atheistic/agnostic (same word as far as I'm concerned), I don't believe that after death there's nothing to do. It's just something I can't know. But anyway, the afterlife doesn't have to mean something religious like hell or Heaven and the thought of its existence shouldn't be dependent on religion. Some of you people take religion too literally.

Exactly. I'm an atheist (I'm nearly certain there has never been a supreme being) but I still think it's possible for consciousness to extend beyond life, though I think it would be alien enough not to resemble consciousness as we know it. Then again, I don't know. I don't care, really. I'll just spend my time alive as best as I can and I'll see what happens afterward when the time comes.

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Theists have seem to have the hardest time getting past the mentality of a person without an afterlife has no life at all.

If your going to be treated to an afterlife of chocolate and kittens, then why better yourself when eternal happiness is just around the corner? Will you need your college education in Nirvana? Same thing.

At least he's not asking the age old theist question of "where do you get your morality without the Bible?". Like I need a book to understand empathy.

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Technician said:

"where do you get your morality without the Bible?"

That can be easily defeated by quoting choice passages. Even to the point where the goalposts are moved ALL THE WAY BACK to, "God granted you your morality whether you like it or not," at which point we can agree that humans are BORN with a moral sense, not taught it from some book as you say.

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DoomUK said:

I'll put it out there that I find nothing scarier or more depressing than nothing itself. A constant reminder that whatever I'm doing with my life right now is a waste of time. Even if I've contributed to the happiness of others, their own consciousness will eventually expire and their lives will also be ultimately meaningless. And those who followed them, and those who followed them. It's... a haunting thought.



Contextually it is all what make you make of it in your mind. If you're nothing, then you're nothing. If you're deeds are meaningless, then they're without meaning. Conversely, you can be considered delusional with your own narcissistic sense of self worth. Basing the greatness of your good deeds on the exaltation you receive from others, and how great they make you look in the eyes of others.

Give yourself meaning. Don't fear taking up space in the world, but be humble. Or just furiously masturbate to Nietzsche like all the cool kids.

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40oz said:

And who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But that's extremely unlikely because im always right.

Can someone please make this his custom title.

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moved to ee as thread deliberately invites open discussion.

DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die - no thoughts, no emotions, no experience - then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all?


because I have a life in the first place, and relationships/success/comfort/pleasure all beat the hell out lack thereof? you can take the big-picture nihilism view and go die of pure despair in a ditch or an alley but there are pretty well established biological reasons why the vast majority people don't, even when they have little or none of the things mentioned. and I find eternity to be a much more intimidating concept than nothingness.

as Jodwin notes your question is better posed to theists. just from the christian gospels there's "harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven," "cast off your worldly goods and follow," "build not treasures on the earth," blah blah. I can't be arsed to flip through my bad book for the exact quotes but the gist is that your mortal life is as a passing breath before the eternity of (happiness/torture/virgins) that (deity) has planned for you.

DuckReconMajor said:

> realize existence is meaningless
> eat a box of donuts
> get a tummyache
> realize eating a box of donuts is a bad idea
> everything's back to normal


> implying this is 4chan
i seriously hope you shitposters don't do this

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Liam said:

> implying this is 4chan
i seriously hope you shitposters don't do this

Uh, I always assumed it was a reference to Colossal Cave Adventure or other text games. I'm sorry for making you unhappy.

Anyway, if I may be serious for a minute, I was kind of trying to make a point with that post, though as usual I guess it was taken as random stupidity (which I couldn't blame anyone for). I agree with most everyone's posts. I agree most with exp(x) and Khorus's posts.

First off, every motivation and desire you have is your chemical structure reacting to your environment. There are no (well, I and other believe there are no) things such as free will or human dignity. These are things that have sprung up with the complexity of the human mind, so complex that we have a hard time seeing them as natural functions.

And secondly, your wants form into goals of different reaches. For those who believe in a grand afterlife, getting there is a very long term goal. What I was pointing out in my stupid earlier post is that when many people lose belief that that goal exists, they decide they might as well just go after very short term goals, such as giving in to base temptations. When this doesn't work, they usually (hopefully) can go back to normal, with a fresh outlook and maybe a new set of goals.

40oz said:

I can't help but be ashamed of how horribly selfish it would be for me to just kill myself to escape into a realm of perfect calmness while people who know and love me will have to suffer with the fact that I'm no longer available to contribute to what makes their life worth living, especially if they are not convinced that my understanding of life is true. It just seems really lame and cowardly.

I think this is a bad attitude toward suicide, as it can lead people to not seek help when feeling suicidal for fear of being called weak, selfish, or cowardly. I don't think you should feel ashamed.

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Anybody claiming to be sure about what happens after we die or how we came about in the first place is nuts.

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DoomUK said:

If you genuinely think that there is absolutely nothing after you die ... then what is the point of doing anything with your life at all?

The first part of the sentence answers your question.

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DuckReconMajor said:

I don't think you should feel ashamed.


Stop trying to convince me to kill myself.

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printz said:

Imagine you got to live very short before dying, such as being stillborn. Or less pathologically, a bug squashed as soon as encountered. Those poor souls haven't got much to be conscious about, and were soon (almost instantly) dead. Instant nothingness forever for those unlucky ones? I doubt it.


The universe just is. It does not have a sense of fairness. It cannot care whether a person or creature has ten decades to live or ten seconds. To put it like a scientist: does having this notion of an afterlife explain any known phenomenon consistently? No. Is there consistent evidence of it? No. Doesn't exist. Consciousness is a function of things like brains. If they die it goes too.

But that's ok. Natural selection is a beautiful thing. Creatures that see no point in doing anything die, and thus the ones that continue to want to live and do things for no good reason reproduce and make more of the same. As a result most of us want to live, eat, have sex, build things, further civilization, etc. We can rationalize it all we want, but it came from evolution.

I don't need to think about why I want to write good code or why I like beer better than other drinks. I do and that's ok. It suits me and doesn't hurt anyone else, which also suits me. Life goes on and then it stops -- but it goes on for someone else.

Technician and Lüt just won the thread.

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