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veterane

DooM High Res Engine or Fake

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Memfis said:


Thanks for the hint dude! What a pity.. would be so awesome to see a doom remake like this.. nevertheless, great rendered image (@Lee Griggs)

How would the classic doom look like on a modern engine, like UE3? Just the classic level design, flat walls and stuff.. no useless pseudo mordern decorations.. THAT would be really kewl imo.

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Nice pic, I knew I'd seen it somewhere around the forums. Imagine what the frame rate would be like if the engine existed, on my system it'd be a slideshow.

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veterane said:

How would the classic doom look like on a modern engine, like UE3?


Not really good actually. When you have stupidly-high resolution textures in a low "detail resolution" environment, it feels weird. It makes the angle seem blockier and the room emptier.

It's like, for example, slapping a photorealistic texture on a low-poly model like something from the original Quake. The result is uncanny.

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well, I guess the art is about updating the look, without changing anything of the classic behaviour. In most cases previously, something fundamental has been changed which then wasn't classic like anymore.

there's no doubt that it looks strange when you mix up high-res environment and then mix it up with the old <100px sprites.

Imagine the picture from above, working on Tech5 Engine or UE3. And let the models be exactly the same as in classic, no polygon models, just >high-res< sprites which fit to the rest of the high-res engine/textures. That would be a real deal (if possible).

Somebody (in fact a real lot of ppl) would have to recreate the gfx sprites in high-res (which were real models before photographed iirc) and then make it work in acceptable speed with the current engines. No creative additions to the model-sprites, just high-res. (3D Models means: loss of classic behaviour)
I'm no developer expert, but if I ever wanted to make a real doom classic update, I'd try it that way, because it's probably the only way to keep the classic behaviour and feel despite up-to-date graphics..


I guess ID Software still owns all the rights to make such a thing (hypothetically).. so someone can't just buy an UE3 engine license and start working on it.. if ID Software would start anything like that, the choice of the engine would probably be their Tech5 (I think UE3 is better, though).

I still hope - looking 5 - 10 years forward - boundaries will be broken to port the classic doom with it's original behaviour to new levels of eye-candy.

It might be just wishful thinking, and probably the community will never have the capacity to do such a time consuming work, but hey, you never know what romero or the carmacks have in mind someday. :)

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Gez said:

Not really good actually. When you have stupidly-high resolution textures in a low "detail resolution" environment, it feels weird. It makes the angle seem blockier and the room emptier.

It's like, for example, slapping a photorealistic texture on a low-poly model like something from the original Quake. The result is uncanny.


I agree with this. I myself am working on a high res texture, mid poly model project but the thing is a novelty and will never be considered a Doom community staple. Doom Ascension is pretty much a lower poly version of this without the realistic lighting. You can check it out here if you are interested-> http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/54379-doom-ascension-mod-recruitment-announcements-image-heavy/ There are no screen-shots of high res-textures yet. I should probably get some on there sometime.

Personally I think Doom in its original form is one of those few games that is a work of art that you just so happen to interact with. I am merely one of those who seeks to replicate the Mona Lisa with a modern flair.

...I just called Doom the Mona Lisa of video games.

EDIT:

veterane said:

(3D Models means: loss of classic behaviour)


This is not true unless the change of behavior is desired.

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NiuHaka said:
...I just called Doom the Mona Lisa of video games.


haha, yeah yeah, that's what it is!


hm but back to topic.
let's assume doom is the mona lisa.

What are the different ways to give her an "update"?
(aka: what kind of classic doom updates are possible)

1. Try to copy her, without changing anything in size or appearance, using just a better/newer canvas... (aka: Doom 95?)

2. Look at the Mona Lisa picture and draw her for yourself while adding and removing some elements just as inspiration tells you. Give her some extra smile, change her face a bit to look more like those modern girls, draw more make-up, and/or use better colors... (aka: DooM 3)

3. Exactly draw her again using the latest canvas which is more than 10x as large as the original one and also use the latest colors on the market. Let her look like a big polished original. (aka: Doomsday alike ports, but still no perfection due to: not the cutting edge canvas, brushes and colors)

so what the real classic doom fan wants(not to say: dreams of) as "update" is the third way with more effort/money and perfection.

everytime one starts to draw her and try to polish her by adding or removing stuff which is essentially "mona lisa" (in a figurative sense: 3d models, level decoration, monster decrease, etc), the port changes fom 3. to 2. and the result is going to be somthing like doom3, doom4, etc like.

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veterane said:

well, I guess the art is about updating the look, without changing anything of the classic behaviour. In most cases previously, something fundamental has been changed which then wasn't classic like anymore.


It could be done, some talented model artists would have to make hi-poly models for it to look nice though. Who said that the maps and models had to be low detail with high resolution textures?

I sincerely doubt that anyone would be willing or able to do that much work though, even if it was a community project.

Changing the looks of the game does absolutely nothing to affect the behavior unless you want it to.

Edit: Seriously, the Doom worship in this thread is kind of silly. Why are you so convinced that it's absolutely impossible to update Doom without ruining it?

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bgraybr said:

Edit: Seriously, the Doom worship in this thread is kind of silly. Why are you so convinced that it's absolutely impossible to update Doom without ruining it?


Hey! I resemble that comment! There is nothing wrong with the worship of Doom.

Seriously though, as much as I love Doom I wouldn't be leading the Ascension project if I thought it would ruin it. I am 100% pro-Doom upgrading.

This might seem like another shameless plug but just check out the project and see for yourself.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/54379-doom-ascension-mod-recruitment-announcements-image-heavy/

And then the C.C. (sort of) thread where I show off the mid-poly models.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/51845-doom-ascension-my-3d-monsters-items-objects-image-heavy/

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Nah, just gimme that sweet 320x200, 8-bit color, buncha sprites and shit, and I'm a happy camper. And whether it's Doom, Raven, or Strife, I can actually make maps with a simple editor like DEU.

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NiuHaka said:

Hey! I resemble that comment! There is nothing wrong with the worship of Doom.


Heh, okay then. But as much as I love Doom it irks me a little when people go out of there way to declare how perfect they think it is (as in comparing it to the Mona Lisa) but I don't know what else I should expect out of a fan site for a 17-year-old game. :3

Great work on Doom Ascension by the way. I've actually been following it pretty closely.

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bgraybr said:

Heh, okay then. But as much as I love Doom it irks me a little when people go out of there way to declare how perfect they think it is (as in comparing it to the Mona Lisa) but I don't know what else I should expect out of a fan site for a 17-year-old game. :3

Edit: Seriously, the Doom worship in this thread is kind of silly. Why are you so convinced that it's absolutely impossible to update Doom without ruining it?


well, it is more like an art-object than just a game. I have lots of memories from my childhood where I played doom (and hey, I'm still the opposite of an amok running guy).
I like the fictional satanistic artwork with all it's pixeled details. the design of the monsters (sprites) and the unique color palette used throughout the game. I like the skysphere with the moon mountains which look like the mountains found in Guangxi southern China (22.614328,106.944866), the unique variety of Monsters, the weapons, the kill effects, and so on.. I could continue that forever.

If you like the original artwork that much, it shouldn't be hard to understand that every change to it would be a retreat. As long as it isn't just the same artwork in higher quality resolution e.g. So it's not a question about whether doom is perfect (like mona lisa?). It's about doom being a unique artwork which is loved the way it is/was.

So me and others are probably worshipping doom because of it's unique style never found again in other games 'til today.

I've never said I'd be convinced that there's no way to update doom without ruining it.

ruining starts when something of it's unique orignal artwork is changed.
if someone can leave that unchanged while improving the quality of the original artwork then it's probably the best doom update imaginable.
I can live with mouselook, better lightnings, water and fire effects, blood on walls and stuff, these are things I would accept as further improvements - As long as monsters, weapons, textures, etc are the same with better resolutions maybe.

it's definitively not impossible. it's been on it's way with doomsday ports and similar. But - the big but - at some point, almost every port tries to adapt things and change unique behaviour and artwork which is then disappointing.

e.g. I like playing Risen3D with high-res textures, adding the doom remixes from dj redlight and having 3D models switched off.
This is as close as it can get to a perfect doom classic update.

In contrast, some guys made a Doom Classic remake with the Doom 3 engine, which has all those fancy lightnings and pro aspects of a new generation engine.
But they've changed too much.. the level decorations... then used the demons from doom 3 (which are by far not as kewl as the original ones) and the weapon ports (have you seen the chaingun? I almost cried.. that's not even close to the original chaingun, sorry! But ok, weapons in doom 3 were bad in general..)
In fact it's a complete different game, despite using almost the same levels.

At this point I can just point out to the picture in my first post of this thread: that's what it should look like (+ original monsters of course)

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I don't think a next-gen remake of Doom would be a good idea to do. Doom's level design is too abstract and its kind of gameplay wouldn't really work that well to re-create in a modern engine.

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Doomhuntress said:

I don't think a next-gen remake of Doom would be a good idea to do. Doom's level design is too abstract and its kind of gameplay wouldn't really work that well to re-create in a modern engine.


Abstract levels are now impossible to create in a modern engine and the engine now determines the gameplay. I've heard that id Tech 5 crashes if there's not enough scripted events within a level.

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The only way I think old school, abstract level design could work with a a modern engine is through the work of dedicated, highly skilled artists. It's possible, but it would take some imagination.

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I think that some highly detailed/aesthetically pleasing GZDoom levels would translate well to a more modern engine.

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