Doom EU (alpha TC) [NOT FOR ZDOOM]

[Blastfrog]

Marnetmar said:

If that manages to work, please post the conversation!

I certainly will. :)

Anyway, I felt like posting the current version for the hell of it, download it if you'd like: http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/jUWVQ2eCgr/doomeu.zip

Note that it doesn't come with the custom engine yet, as barely anything has been done to it yet. (plus, I restarted it using the Visual C++ package instead of the Cygwin one)

[Marnetmar]

Hmm...I've only played the first level, and I hate to say it, but I wasn't all that impressed. First of all I really don't think that the music matches that level, in fact, when I disabled the music the level really came to life. The rocket launcher's weapon sprite doesn't even remotely resemble a rocket launcher, I thought it was supposed to be a chaingun.

You seem to have the level design down, but for some reason I wasn't feeling that same atmosphere the alpha versions had. Two WADs that actually managed to capture that atmosphere are actually a conversion of the alpha levels to Doom 2, and they really hit it on the nail, even with sound and monster movement, and I'd really study them if I were you.

They can be found here and here.

[Blastfrog]

Heh, I actually used those as a base. The rocket launcher sprite was an interpretation of the alpha pickup graphic, and it hasn't been animated correctly yet.

How exactly did the first level not have the alpha feel? All I did was take the alpha levels and polish them, but trying to keep the original feel.

Most of the levels are unmodified, only 1 and 5 have any real work done on them. 2 and 8 have a little work done, but not much. I haven't even touched the other levels yet.

[Marnetmar]

As I said, I really can't put my finger on why they don't have the atmosphere.

[Blastfrog]

Has anyone else tried it yet?

[Death Egg]

I played through it and strangely, without the music, it DOES feel more like the alphas. I think the part of the alphas atmosphere was merely because they never had music, but it would be strange to not have any music for this, soooo...

Also, I just can't seem to be able to play Doom without mouselook anymore, so I had to switch over to ZDoom and half the features were broken. Not that that'll matter since it's getting it's own engine anyway.

[hex11]

It's not that strange to play without music. Try Classic Episode (class_ep.wad) that way, it's much better with just sound FX.

Since this is a custom engine, you could theoretically experiment with dynamic sound FX generation, which would be a step beyond placing static actors. But it will require some research and time to find something that works reasonably well.

Next best thing is to place static actors, and again since this is a custom engine you don't even need to hijack monsters for that, the code can be directly imported from an existing engine. Load up Heretic E1M1, turn off the music and go walk around the docks. In some spots you'll hear dripping water or rushing wind. Hexen has tons of stuff like that too.

Another possible solution might be to simply add some new "bogus" monster types that do nothing except produce sounds, and then hide them in walls, etc. like some PWADs have done to create ambient sounds (exept they just use the existing monsters, not brand new ones). For example:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=9823

If you place them carefully, you could create an incredible atmosphere, where one can hear computers beeping, flickering lights buzzing, howling wind in drafty corridors, crackling torches, dripping water, running water, bubbling nukage, etc. Heck, throw in those animated computer textures too.

[StoneFrog]

Haven't gotten around to replying until just now, but just wanted to say I'm really liking the visuals thus far - the status bar is clean yet elegant (purple in MY Doom?), and you seem to have stricken a nice balance in detailing the maps.

Item pickups could add an interesting dynamic, too. I did some Wolfenstein mapping a while back and whilst nobody really plays for scores anymore, there's something really rewarding about being able to scoop up so many goodies. Are you thinking of adding some sort of additional bonuses for scores, or just sticking to the bonus lives concept from the alpha?

Keep up the good work, Sodaholic. I really like the atmosphere about this WAD so far. Kind of like a more 90s KDIZD, without flashy DECORATE enemies or heavy scripting.

TrueDude said:

I played through it and strangely, without the music, it DOES feel more like the alphas.

When I first heard about Doom for example, I thought it was going to be a really tense game - very quiet, an awkward 15FPS that makes you feel vulnerable as to how quickly you can react, and yet slow-paced altogether. I wasn't expecting the game to be as chaotic in nature, nor for it to have upbeat rock MIDI's keeping you company throughout the levels. Reducing the amount of background music definitely creates a more haunting and dated atmosphere, in my opinion.

[Average]

I eagerly await this project but I do agree with what seems to be the consensus regarding the music. The Alpha levels are sparse and barren and I really think that to retain that atmosphere the music should at least compliment that. Personally, if at all possible, I'd go with HEx's idea of the ambient SFX and dispense with the music all together.

OT: When I first discovered Doom it was on the Amiga using ADoom and I couldn't get the music to play. After a couple of years I finally got a PC and found the music to be a shock and actually pretty jarring to the atmosphere. It took me quite some time to accept the music and even now I switch it off when I'm playing 'spooky' maps...

[Blastfrog]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I fully agree that the alpha levels are much better with ambiance instead of music, but it goes against the idea of the project. I'm trying to make this as authentic as possible (as if id themselves made it, not a fan), and I know for a fact that id was intending to have music for the game. (many of the unused doom music files are dated from around the alpha versions) If you don't like the music, just turn it off.

I'm not going to have a metal only soundtrack like id originally intended, though. I will still use ambient tracks in some levels.

=====================

There's a small change I'd like to make to the engine, but am not sure how. Allow me to explain; the Doom alphas used an older method of sprite rotation, like Wolfenstein's. If you turn, sprites turn with you, but if you move side to side, the sprites don't turn with you. You can also see this in ROTT and Shadowcaster.

The final instead worked like this: turning did not have sprites turn with you, but strafing around caused them to turn.

I'd like to somehow restore this older behavior, does anyone know how that could be done? (preferably someone who's an expert with Doom's engine, like Fraggle, or Quasar, or anyone like that)

=====================

StoneFrog said:

(purple in MY Doom?)

Where? I don't remember putting purple anywhere in the status bar...

[Tormentor667]

Awesome work so far, feels very classic :)

[Dee]

I really enjoyed this. Comes off as what I originally thought doom should have looked more like. This looks like it makes more sense and has a much more down to earth look to it, as opposed to the final release of Doom. The architecture here makes more sense. Most of the levels in Doom look almost abstract, and for some reason the alpha was more structured, story line based game play.
Playing cards, Shower rooms, Lockers, corridors, Crates, computers, etc.
Just strange how the final Doom came off so much differently than the alpha.

[ellmo]

Whoa. I just had a nostalgic nerdgasm.
It looks very alphaish, the weapons, the textures, the chairs, oh god THE CHAIRS, the books, goblets and daggers!
Me gusta.

Why haven't I heard of this project before? Then again, I wasn't reading the forums for months.

What does EU stand for?

[Gez]

European Union?
Extended Universe?


Or maybe Evil Unleashed.

[Dee]

Evil Unleashed was the original title of Doom alpha.
Doom:
Evil Unleashed

[ellmo]

Dee said:

Evil Unleashed was the original title of Doom alpha.
Doom:
Evil Unleashed

True that, I forgot, thanks.

[Marnetmar]

Any news?

[belandino]

I always loved the Doom alpha versions! This project looks awesome! How is it going with it? Hopefully it won't die like Doom 0.8!

EDIT: I've just tried the first level of your DoomEU... I got the same feeling I had when I played Doom for the first time back in 1994 or 1995! It's WONDERFUL!

[Armaetus]

May I ask why would you want to use a custom engine? Which one are you trying to use? Why not just settle down with a derivative of ZDoom?

[tempun]

Mr. Chris said:

May I ask why would you want to use a custom engine? Which one are you trying to use? Why not just settle down with a derivative of ZDoom?

Obviously for more authenticity. A derivative of Chocolate Doom. I'm not Sodaholic but I think that a custom engine is more flexible and, at least theoretically, add Eternity portals or something.

[Gez]

tempun said:

at least theoretically, add Eternity portals or something.

Then start with Eternity. Backporting the Cardboard renderer in ChocoDoom isn't going to be easy. Eternity also has the advantage, like ZDoom, of allowing to quickly and simply add new actors without having to modify the source code.

[hex11]

I think Chocolate Doom is the ideal base, since fraggle has put so much work in making sure it behaves like the real thing. Of course, the target here is Alpha, not doom.exe, but it's still the closest thing.

[Zom-B]

Let me get this straight, you want to take the alpha executable (modified) now, instead of modified chocolate doom?

Another thing I've wondered, why do you need to go through such lengths as recoding, while hexen.exe contains most of the things you're looking for? (player classes, keys between maps, scripting) With a little effort you can plug pack all the old textures and maybe even monsters (with dehacked). If it's ZDoom then it's even easier, including custom status bars! Is it because you want absolute demo compatibility? You could just pick a single zdoom version and include it in your releases.


I'm a coder, so I can help you out, but first I want to know why you resort to coding.

[Gez]

hex11 said:

I think Chocolate Doom is the ideal base, since fraggle has put so much work in making sure it behaves like the real thing.

The point being that the aim of this TC is not to be the real thing.

Vanilla Doom is severely "dumbed down" from what would have been Doom: Evil Unleashed if Tom Hall's vision had been fully implemented. It's also strongly debatable whether all the limit-induced crashes and oversight-induced bugs are an integral part of that vision, too. Even disregarding the full extent of the bible and looking instead at the alphas, you'll notice plenty of stuff that are decidedly un-chocolatey. Even on very minor things, such as ouch face behavior. To say nothing of the planned and abandoned hi-color mode.

Eternity is able to play vanilla demos back without desyncs, so it should be "behaving like the real thing" enough for this TC's purposes.

Zom-B said:

Let me get this straight, you want to take the alpha executable (modified) now, instead of modified chocolate doom?

Yeah obviously it'll be even easier to disassemble an exe, decompile it into usable C code, modify it, adapt it to current OS and recompile it than to start from legible source code.

Also he never said anything of the sort.

[hex11]

Well limits of some kind would have been necessary anyway back then, because the hardware resources were tiny compared to today. They probably would have been very similar to what ended up in doom.exe, no matter if they went in Romero's or Tom Hall's direction.

And I'm getting the impression this TC isn't faithfully adhering to the Doom Bible, but rather simply trying to implement playable Alpha-based maps with various elements of the Doom Bible.

I guess you could do a lot of this stuff in an advanced port, but he already tried with ZDoom and lost his focus somehow, perhaps because of the lack of vanilla limits.

[Ed]

Couldn't you use some of the alpha MIDI files Romero dumped a few years back? It has some rough drafts of songs, stuff that didn't make it into the game at all.

http://planetromero.com/2007/06/doom-archaeology

Edit:
Ah.. after listening to some of these, you'd be better off downloading fan made Slayer and Alice in Chains MIDI files as opposed to just using unfinished versions by Bobby Prince >_<

[Mr. Freeze]

Ed said:

Couldn't you use some of the alpha MIDI files Romero dumped a few years back? It has some rough drafts of songs, stuff that didn't make it into the game at all.

http://planetromero.com/2007/06/doom-archaeology

Edit:
Ah.. after listening to some of these, you'd be better off downloading fan made Slayer and Alice in Chains MIDI files as opposed to just using unfinished versions by Bobby Prince >_<

Already did. The problem is that a lot of them kinda suck or are too unfinished to work with...but that didn't stop me from trying to salvage a lot of them. A lot of DTWID's alpha music is lifted from those tracks.

[Armaetus]

Likewise, Eternity or ZDoom derivative might be best since it's highly flexible and fairly popular within the Doom community. Not everyone would want to play under an alpha or Choco based port for the TC.

[Blastfrog]

The thing is, this project actually started on ZDoom (in fact, I passed that version off to someone else). I'd much rather not go back to more advanced source ports, because I want a vanilla experience. The source to the custom engine would be open, so that people could play it on other platforms, or be able to port the TC to more advanced ports if they wanted to.

Besides, I only have a small featureset in mind, once I get the most important features into the engine, that'll pretty much be it. While some advanced ports do have the features I need, the fact that I only need a few of them, combined with the fact that I'd like a vanilla experience, kinda kills my wanting to use advanced ports.

[Spazman]

Hey. i'm not sure if this'll help in any way with the DoomEU in any way, but it's from a conversation I had with Tom hall earlier today. The original story and stuff for The Tei Tenga story for Doom:

(Me, asking about the Tei Tenga story) Hey, I just checked out the Doom Bible, for reference to see if anything could help me out with my game, but a lot of the stuff was blank. Is there anything else that was planned, but never made it into that? If you have anymore info on that, could you please help me out on it? I'm quite fascinated with the original Tei Tenga story, which sadly never made it, it would have been a great add-on to the released game.

(34 minutes ago from Tom Hall)
I don't own that stuff, id does, but if it's not for money, it is prooobably no biggie.

All those notes are packed away and inaccessible right now. There was originally the United (not Union) Aerospace Corporation, and then a military government agency behind them, whose logo looked similar to the ship between two-planets one, but it was the ship *bombing* a planet. Tei Tenga was a discovered moon of a planet around a nearby star -- so they had that "we alone in this, far from home" feeling from Alien. They were doing very dangerous experiments of trying to open a hole to another dimension, and succeeded, and thought they had opened a hole to a place with aliens... but grew to realize it was actually Hell -- so science and religion kind of collided in the story.

The arc was demons in our normal world, then a journey into Hell, then coming back to the darkside base of Tei Tenga, it was our world perverted -- what the kind of did with Doom2.

You were going to start with three friends in the scene playing cards, then a demon comes in the room and kills the others (unless you had three co-op friends -- basically kills whatever spots aren't taken by players. Then Buddy had run off and was giving you updates and things to dread up ahead, and when you finally get to him, he's suddenly shredded in half, a la Ash in Aliens, and it's the boss of Episode 1, which has obviously proved himself really dangerous.

At least that's something! Good luck!

--It was info that was supposed to be going for my Doom RPG game, but since you were doing a DoomEU project, I figgered this might be helpful to your cause. Maybe a bit of a backstory to work on while yo make the game, eh?