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Enjay

Modern games - do you have a "snooty attitude"?

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Carmack says...

"That’s one of the things - I’m actually happy Rage is a little bit different in terms of feeling and tone. It’s not just, 'Here’s your squad mates.' But that’s still a proven formula that people like, and it’s a mistake to [discount that]. As long as people are buying it, it means they’re enjoying it," he said. "If they buy the next Call of Duty, it’s because they loved the last one and they want more of it. So I am pretty down on people who take the sort of creative auteurs' perspective. It's like 'Oh, we’re not being creative.' But we're creating value for people - that’s our job! It’s not to do something that nobody’s ever seen before. It’s to do something that people love so much they’re willing to give us money for."

"So I do get pretty down on people that - you see some of the indie developers that really take a snooty attitude about this. It’s almost as if it’s popular, it’s not good. And that’s just not true."

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/doom-creator-fires-back-at-devs-with-snooty-attitude/

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I've read the article on the Escapist, and thought he's probably right. My reason for this is simple: There's a lot of hipster dickheads out there who hate things because they're "mainstream". That sort of whinging has been about long before hipsters obviously, but it seems to have become a trend itself now (ironically).

Personally I don't. My main problem is that a lot of games don't interest me until I'm actually playing them and then once I'm done playing through the campaign or whatever I'm uninclined to ever go back most of the time. Factor in the cost of a new game and I either end up going for things expressly because they're like something I've already enjoyed (see: CoD), or going for something very alternative to what I already have because it may be new and enjoyable for a change.

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'Oh, we’re not being creative.' But we're creating value for people - that’s our job!

Except when you're not.

See: removing dedicated server capabilities, creating an "everyone's a winner" mentality with achievements, limiting graphics capabilities for the sake of portability, inflicting "sequelitis" and fixing what ain't broke, nerfing weapons/vehicles/items due to the complaints of unskilled gamers... I could go on.

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id was better when it was Carmack, Romero and the rest of the crew doing cool shit out of their garage. No huge budget, no corporate oversight, just some passionate dudes with a dream. But nothing lasts forever...

Anyway I don't really play modern games much. Hell, I prefer plain old vanilla Doom to all the advanced shit. There comes a point at which I'm no longer impressed by technical shit, and it was crossed long ago.

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Bucket said:

See: removing dedicated server capabilities, creating an "everyone's a winner" mentality with achievements, limiting graphics capabilities for the sake of portability, inflicting "sequelitis" and fixing what ain't broke, nerfing weapons/vehicles/items due to the complaints of unskilled gamers... I could go on.

Stop being good at games. Bitch.

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I only give my money to companies I respect.

The influence of COD's "gameplay" and Kotick's business practice is a black plague upon the industry. That's why I don't like Activision. Not because I don't like the game.

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Marnetmar said:

It's not modern games I dislike, it's their fucking fanbases.


This.

Halo gets bashed A LOT. But the thing is that the Halo games (not counting Halo 2) are actually fairly decent amounts of fun. Its just that they have the world's most obnoxious fanbase that will insist that the FPS market was a primitive piece of shit before Halo came a long and "revolutionized" everything.

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Well, I think it's more that Halo was big in starting the consolization of first person shooters, and the fact that PC gamers tend to look down on console gamers.

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DuckReconMajor said:

Well, I think it's more that Halo was big in starting the consolization of first person shooters, and the fact that PC gamers tend to look down on console gamers.


I think anyone who "looks down" on anyone for gaming on a different platform is an ass that should be ignored.

Not to mention that poor PC ports aren't console player's fault, but the developer's for being lazy and cheap.

Take CD: black ops for example, even with the oceans of money they had they still could not make a half decent PC port of the damn thing so it sucked on the PC.

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DuckReconMajor said:

Well, I think it's more that Halo was big in starting the consolization of first person shooters, and the fact that PC gamers tend to look down on console gamers.


Well that's just fucking retarded because the last time I checked, owning a console didn't stifle my ability to play and appreciate PC games. Oh wait, it's because PC Gamers tend to be elitist assholes!

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I am a sucker for modern graphics, and I don't get the appeal with games that deliberately want to look old-school and ugly. Things evolve.

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Bucket said:

Except when you're not.

See: removing dedicated server capabilities, creating an "everyone's a winner" mentality with achievements, limiting graphics capabilities for the sake of portability, inflicting "sequelitis" and fixing what ain't broke, nerfing weapons/vehicles/items due to the complaints of unskilled gamers... I could go on.


WTF does achievements have to do with anything? If everybody can have those regular achievements then make some of your own like gamers have been doing forever. Carmack's argument applies there: if people generally like achievements then they belong in the game from a company's POV. They certainly don't hurt anybody, and sometimes it takes stupidly huge skill to get half of them.

Sequels obviously create value if a pile of people want to buy them.

Sadly, the other things are just a demographic annoyance. Developers make games for consoles because consoles attract a lot of non-technical people who aren't bothered with PC games. This has made me an even bigger fan of Bethesda lately. Even though they design their games around consoles, they are so moddable on PC that it doesn't matter.

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Everything made past 2000 just hasn't captured my imagination like Unreal, Thief, Starcraft, Doom, Quake, and Heretic did. I'm just bored to death with slow paced point and click regen health modern fps's that have unmemorable and uninspiring elevator music playing and visually are ironically also very boring and sterile to look at, considering how technology has "advanced" you still get the "Run in a straight line throughout the duration of the game, have fun!". And what people consider atmospheric nowadays is playing an entire game running through boring dark corridors without variation waiting for the next big cheap scare or for some shock value. Blah. The only game I'm looking forward to is the upcoming Elder Scrolls.

So I guess I have a "snooty attitude" :), but in actuality, it's not innovation I'm after, I just enjoy solid and fast paced, atmospheric shooters that have a variety of environments which can give me a sense of escapism. As well as having a monster cast where each monster requires a different approach to defeat and can offer a fun challenge when used in different combinations.

I've mostly seen a snooty attitude coming from modern gamers, when they call everyone out who expresses a contrasting opinion and justifies their outburst with "you dont like it just because its mainstream" and then they'll always throw in a few personal insults to make themselves feel better. I tried really hard to enjoy newer games, I really did, but I can't get any satisfaction out of a half assed slow paced and dull turd with mind numbingly stupid and repetetive nerfed gameplay.

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Why do we all care so much about publicly announcing what kind of games we like to play and insisting modern games and their communities suck ass? It's as tedious as kids (and some adults) arguing over what music they listen to and why X is better than Y. Just enjoy your obscure text-based adventures from 25 years ago or your Call of Duty and Halo.

Carmack should know better than to incite debates like this among people. Some people don't want to see the same elements and qualities in games that a lot of us grew up with.

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Mr. Freeze said:

Well that's just fucking retarded because the last time I checked, owning a console didn't stifle my ability to play and appreciate PC games. Oh wait, it's because PC Gamers tend to be elitist assholes!


I'm pretty sure the divide between PC and console games is thanks mostly to the developers. PC comes second for most developers these days since consoles tend to have a larger audience and as such, many of them neglect their PC versions.

Infinity Ward is probably the worst offender of this. When MW2 came out, the PC version was virtually unplayable for weeks and the developers showed absolutely no sign of doing anything to fix the issues. on top of that, they provided absolutely no tech support whatsoever. The closest they ever came to troubleshooting a problem was telling one player to Google the problem. Meanwhile, the 360 version suffered from almost no problems, if any at all.

It's the stupid shit like this that developers do that enforces the gap between PC and console gamers.

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When sales are high, it's because they've done a good job.
When sales are low, it's because of piracy.

It's all so convenient.

There's a kernel of truth to what he's saying of course, but the whole industry lacks any kind of self-critique and introspection.

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If it makes me an elitist that I don't like the boring gameplay of most new games, then so be it. But I don't dislike new games because they're new, rather, I dislike bad games because they're shit.

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The masses are ignorant and history has proven that. I respect John Carmack a lot, but did he really just defend boring carbon-copy clone games like CoD by saying "if the masses like it we must be right"? Really?.

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Captain Red said:

You dislike games becasue they are not exactly like the games you played when you where 12.


I don't know if this was directed at anyone in particular or a general note. If the latter, I must say I dislike that kind of argument. I myself have not found too many games post 2000 that I've loved, but I have reasons and arguments for it. None of them are based in nostalgia and I personally don't care for supposedly carbon-copies of Doom, Dark Forces etc with modern graphics.

I just hate the be all-end all nostalgia card that keeps getting pulled.

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I agree with Carmack when he says SOME indie developers are snooty. I like some indie games, even bought one of them "Indie Bundle" things, but lately, EVERY new indie game is announced like the second coming of Jesus Christ, and their developers are the prophets.

And even after filling their pockets, some developers keep that attitude of "I'm an independent developer, I am better than the rest of the industry, those sellouts".

But of course, I don't bite that "if everyone's buying it than it's good" thing. Just because millions of people buy Lady Gargayle or whatever doesn't mean it's good.

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Captain Red said:

You dislike games becasue they are not exactly like the games you played when you where 12.


There's several games I currently like that don't play like Mario and Sonic the Hedgehog - Portal 2, Dead Space 2, Starcraft 2, among some others. They all actually expanded on themselves and managed to do new things instead of existing to be cash cows. The developers actually tried to innovate and top what people liked in their originals, instead of going with some half-baked idea meant to get another Money Maker out ASAP. I dislike games like CoD that supply ample cutscenes and hyper-realism in place of a decent story, characters and a setting that I haven't been to a hundred times before.

Part of video games and the entertainment industry in general used to let you use your imagination - there's no room for imagination or creativity in most of the shit the masses are eating up now. Game developers might be businesses in the end, but at least they used to have passion and vision. Now for many it's about survival and selling product as soon as possible (and the world is so miserable that it's taken the bate and will buy anything).

I'm not someone who automatically hates a game or sequel because it doesn't play off of the experience of it's older 90's counterparts or hit the spot for nostalgia - not by a long shot. Hell, for example I loved Doom 3 where many didn't, and I've rarely if ever complained about it. I gave it credit where others didn't in that id tried to modernize DOOM but they did so in their own style and spent years developing it to get it to line up with their vision of the game instead of pushing it out half-assed.

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Shaviro said:

I don't know if this was directed at anyone in particular or a general note. If the latter, I must say I dislike that kind of argument. I myself have not found too many games post 2000 that I've loved, but I have reasons and arguments for it. None of them are based in nostalgia and I personally don't care for supposedly carbon-copies of Doom, Dark Forces etc with modern graphics.

I just hate the be all-end all nostalgia card that keeps getting pulled.


Yeah, I was being a bit preemptively antagonistic, which is why I changed it. But seeing as it's there for all to see...

I'll say it straight: I fucking love games. As a means to kill time, a topic, most of all: as an art form. I get a little frustrated when I see games that I loved shit on over and over and over again by the same posters for completely arbitrary reasons. Honestly, as much as I love doom and other games from the 90's, I get a little depressed that so many people can't see any the value in games made after that time.

Yeah, there are some dumb trends in games at the moment, and First person shooters in particular are stuck in a very annoying rut, but there is so much good shit out there that anyone who can't find anything to hold there attention either isn't looking hard enough or is just being a stubborn, nostalgic twat.

Edit: Pretty much agree with everything Xenphire said too.

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[QUOTE]Captain Red said:
You dislike games becasue they are not exactly like the games you played when you where 12.

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Yes, it was a poorly thought out knee-jerk post. I have brought shame to my self, my tribe, and possibly to the human race as a whole.

Can we get back to shaking our fist an dem viddy games?

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I play any game that shows some kind of artistic merit or that entertains me. Sometimes I find a game that meets both these criteria. I couldn't care less whether it's indie and cool or mainstream and trendy. Elitism in any form of media or art-form only helps to stifle the growth of interesting ideas and the maturation of old ones.

I, for one, am happy that we've finally reached the point that we can have the choice of both niche and mainstream games and that graphics aren't the sole driving force anymore...

To call on the over-used movie industry analogy; sometimes I feel 'intelligent and artistic' and watch subtitled films from Mongolia while other times I just want to watch Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Luckily, I have the choice to choose either depending on my wont.

I say "Vive la difference!" :)

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Captain Red said:

Yeah, there are some dumb trends in games at the moment, and First person shooters in particular are stuck in a very annoying rut, but there is so much good shit out there that anyone who can't find anything to hold there attention either isn't looking hard enough or is just being a stubborn, nostalgic twat.

It's dependent on what kind of games people want to play. Someone who is only interested in shooters isn't going to be interested in how far racing games have improved, for instance. Hardly anyone gave a fuck about my Dirt 3 thread a few weeks ago but I explained how I feel about this in there.

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My biggest problem with most modern games is just linearity. In the past they at least sort of tried to obscure the fact that you were progressing in one direction by giving you little nooks and crannies to explore (often with silly little easter eggs to find); these days they don't even bother with that, there's just one path through the game and then when you're done and want to play again, you get to experience it the exact same way again.

That, and I fucking hate invisible barriers. If you're going to make an area inaccessible at least come up with a more creative way of blocking it off.

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