The Doom Confessional Booth

[rehelekretep]

well knock me down with a feather i stand corrected!

also is the sunlust.txt also formatted incorrectly to anyone else? :\

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I'm not 100% sure here, but I think I remember reading something like "UV is designed for uber doomers or for use with OP gameplay mods like Russian Overkill" in the SunLust readme.

from the readme of Sunlust

Quote

Sunlust is a set of 32 boom-compatible maps for Doom II, designed to be played from pistol start. The maps meander through a range of themes, from traditional bases and temples to abstract hellish, void, and tech aesthetics. UV is designed primarily for ubermensch doom-gods, thus we encourage most players to start off on HMP or lower.

 

[rehelekretep]

i think she was being sarcastic ;)

also i just tried the txt in notepad++ and its fine so im guessing windows notepad just sucks

[leodoom85]

Notepad sucks for the readme yeah

[gaspe]

27 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

now youre just trolling :p

Don't ruin the fun pls :(

But it isn't far from the truth actually, tried a couple of times I barely finished the first episode and I always dropped it. I can't really bear that wad.

[bonnie]

3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You can keep saying "it's a thing that exists" for all I care, you have yet to provide a definition as far as I'm concerned.

uh yes I did, you even quoted part of it... twice.

 

5 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Next thing you're gonna tell us is that winning the lottery is "artificially difficult", or that getting hit by lightning is "artificially difficult", because that's where you're headed.

first off, there's no "us." there aren't exactly a lot of people in the same boat as you. i'll tell you that if you were playing a game where you could lose because you got struck by lightning, or if you had to literally win a lottery in the game in some form to win, then that would indeed be artificial difficulty.

 

10 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If something is difficult for the wrong reasons, then it is "difficult for the wrong reasons". If it is "unfair" then it is "unfair". Nothing is "artificial" here. Unfair = Unfair

 If I put you in a pit with 100 revs around you no health and no ammo no room to dodge whatsoever, then it's "unfair", or in this case impossible, but it's not artificial, it's also not "artificially unfair".

10 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's not "harder" it's "less likely". Since when is rolling 10-sided dice "difficult"?

if you're being serious when you say nonsense like this, then you're completely hopeless. you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the meaning behind the phrase "artificial difficulty". here's a literal definition of the word difficulty straight from google: "a thing that is hard to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

 

this is a broad definition, so in gaming, "difficulty" more often refers to something that specifically challenges a player's skill. so, when an external force is introduced such as RNG or something requiring foreknowledge or patience or really anything that challenges something other than your skill, it's not true difficulty in the gaming sense, even though in literal terms, it IS technically difficulty. because it isn't "real" difficulty in the gaming sense, it is instead referred to as fake... or artificial difficulty.

 

communities develop their own terminology. who'd have thought?

[Deadwing]

40 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Easy way to figure out if you're not supposed to fight:

Pistol < Cyberdemon

Shotgun < Cyberdemon

Pistol < Fatso

 

More like:

 

Pistol: Former Human/Sergant

Single Shotgun/Chaingun: All of above + Imps and Lost souls

SS: All of above + Revenants and Demons/Spectres

Rockets/Plasma/BFG: Everything else

[leodoom85]

10 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

i love cyber dancing. i could watch TimeofDeath bfg dance cybers all day.

Now that you mentioned that...it really pisses me off when I dance the rockets and then I make a mistake and die....like, thinking to say "fuck this I'm out" and take a rest from playing.

[leodoom85]

2 minutes ago, Deadwing said:

 

More like:

 

Pistol: Former Human/Sergant

Single Shotgun/Chaingun: All of above + Imps and Lost souls

SS: All of above + Revenants and Demons/Spectres

Rockets/Plasma/BFG: Everything else

what about the fists/chainsaw m8?

just to save ammo for pinkies or imps...even cacos?

[xdarkmasterx]

artificial difficulty

 

 

natural difficulty

[Deadwing]

15 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

what about the fists/chainsaw m8?

just to save ammo for pinkies or imps...even cacos?

 

Hmm I'm no good at using fists/chainsaw at all lol

But it's mostly common for low tiers, although some maps requires punching stronger enemies (or highly skilled players do just for fun sometimes, I guess)

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

18 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

just to save ammo for pinkies or imps...even cacos?

If I have 'zerk, I'll punch barons. :)

And rockets > everything.

[NuMetalManiak]

1 hour ago, eharper256 said:

I'm amazed to get back from work to find this topic is a shitstorm 0_o'. I was basically just voicing my unpopular opinion (which is what this thread is for, right?).

 

(shrugs) Well, at least its good to provoke some discussion on this issue I suppose. AA isn't my favoured cuppa; but I realise it is popular for the same reason people like Dark Souls.

 

Heck, I apparently self impose difficulty because I play a certain way. I mean, take the Mancubus/Cybie in AA1. When I played AA, I saw a Mancubus, and my thought process immediately assigns it as a priority target. I must kill it immediately, because it is too dangerous to just leave it in this area. I cannot concentrate knowing it is just able to blast me up the ass when I'm running away or trying to figure out the level layout. Maybe, once you know what you're supposed to do on the level, you can happily ignore it. But on a first playthrough of any wad, I am not running and gunning, I am creeping around corners, immediately backpedelling from potential traps, and clean sweeping areas meticulously, because without doing that, I cannot concentrate on figuring out the puzzles, switches, teleports, and layout. So, hence, my options are literally limited to pillar dancing the Mancubus whilst plinking it with the pistol, and because of that, I become irritated. So yes, for me, playing my way, AA becomes a 5/10 wad.

 

Understandably, not everyone plays a wad this way. But similarly, not everyone is a doomgod who can instantly figure out they're supposed to ignore it and move on, and also happily dodge projectiles they can't see coming from behind.

 

I'm also not a fan of 'artificial difficulty' as a term. Or heck, difficulty as a concept in general. This was another reason I never proceeded with the 'slaughter h8'; as has been noted, what is the benchmark for hard? Again, some people enjoy anal sex, who am I to judge? Whatever floats your boat.

 

But me, I play Doom to kill stuff and feel like a badass whilst perusing pretty levels and enjoying nostalgia combined with hilarious mods. I don't play to give myself heart-attacks and rage-inducing challenges. That's what Fire Emblem and Darkest Dungeon is for. XD And I don't intend to 'git gud' any time soon. I'm a filthy casual and proud of it.

Elite post. Casuals are the most elite group of all.

 

Arguably skillsaw seems to love gimmicks a lot, which is why the first map seems like a turnoff, yes there's a manc there on the first setting, which is better than the cyber in the higher settings.

Ancient Aliens gameplay gimmicks summary because fuck all of this equally:

MAP01 has the cyber dancing

MAP03 has "the spiders never stop"

MAP06 has ground sinking

MAP18 has running around while monsters spawn in (Icon of Sin map)

MAP19 is a berserk map (HMP and above only)

MAP21 has more cyber-dancing, actually

MAP28 and MAP29 are slaughtermaps.

 

Actually there's not a whole lot, most of the gameplay in aaliens manages to be standard stuff, but only if you are used to skillsaw's preferred gameplay. I probably missed some but

[leodoom85]

honestly, I hate punching in prboom+ for the reasons that you all know

I'm more used to ZDoom ports in terms of punching

[mrthejoshmon]

2 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

have you checked out @kmxexii's website? its pretty good for that sort of thing.

Yeah I read it pretty regularly when I'm looking up information on wads and mods, it's good stuff and they do a great job with informative reviews.

[Fonze]

Delete

[galileo31dos01]

Cute creatures to generate peace and, whatever: 

 

 

On-topic: chainsaw has always been more satisfying to me than 'zerking, in regards to enemies one can apply both weapons with the same or similar average of consistency. So I rather cut a pinky in two rather than dent its face with my fist. Maybe I'm a closeted sadist, idk. 

 

^{I am not. Also I'm not proud of the inconsistency of this post.}

[Benjogami]

1 hour ago, bonnie said:

if you're being serious when you say nonsense like this, then you're completely hopeless. you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the meaning behind the phrase "artificial difficulty". here's a literal definition of the word difficulty straight from google: "a thing that is hard to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

 

this is a broad definition, so in gaming, "difficulty" more often refers to something that specifically challenges a player's skill. so, when an external force is introduced such as RNG or something requiring foreknowledge or patience or really anything that challenges something other than your skill, it's not true difficulty in the gaming sense, even though in literal terms, it IS technically difficulty. because it isn't "real" difficulty in the gaming sense, it is instead referred to as fake... or artificial difficulty.

 

In that google definition, isn't "hard" just a synonym for "difficult"? It doesn't really help much.

 

I've never seen a convincing definition for artificial difficulty, including yours, so count me among those that don't think it's a useful concept. I'll try to explain why.

 

You give 4 factors that are relevant to difficulty: skill, RNG, foreknowledge, and patience. All of these can be tested by a game except for RNG, so I suggest lumping that one that into patience, because if you get bad RNG and die, you have to try again and your patience is tested. I think the same can be said for foreknowledge: if something kills you because you didn't know about it, you have to try again, but this time with the required foreknowledge. This also tests your memory: if you can remember every detail about the thing that killed you, you'll be better off next time than if you only have a vague recollection. It also tests your ability to quickly/efficiently analyze the situation that was sprung on you. Some strategies will give you better access to more information, which will make subsequent attempts more effective.

 

So now we have 3 factors: skill, patience, memory. By skill, I assume that you mean your ability to gather information with your senses, combine it with your knowledge about the game's mechanics, and then to use your fingers and limbs to effectively control your avatar to the goal. Or should knowledge about game mechanics not be included in skill? I think you could argue that the IWADs don't require this particular kind of foreknowledge to be "fair" because new monsters and mechanics are introduced in ways that aren't super deadly (or is Dead Simple artificially difficult?). Most PWADs do require/assume that you have this kind of foreknowledge, though, so whether it should be included in the definition of skill can be deferred if we're only talking about those sorts of PWADs.

 

I suggest that patience and memory are so intertwined with skill, that it's folly to try to pull them apart. Consider that Bloodite Krypto is widely known as one of the best Doom players, and that he has a photographic memory; I'm sure it has a lot to do with his success. Also consider that the best Doom players do stuff over and over, practicing, grinding, testing. That's the work that leads to skill, and it's mostly about patience.

 

Therefore, all that stuff is skill, and there's no artificial difficulty. 

 

 

 

 

[Inno]

5 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

I need to play stuff like... Alien Vendetta, Memento Mori, Hell Revealed...

In both cases, I would recommend you start with the second of each series. The first Memento Mori is sort of rough, and lacks the polish that the second one possesses. Same with Hell Revealed. I'm not terribly fond of slaughtermaps personally, but if someone is interested in them, HR2 is a lot more refined in that regard.

 

Alien Vendetta is mostly great, though the third episode really starts to devolve into tediousness. Once it stopped the "like Doom 2, but harder" approach that it did so well in favour of "shit, lads, I hope you like killing around 1k monsters, because that's what we're going for now," my interest in the mod really started to check out. But it also has Misri Halek, map 20, which (aside from me getting a little confused here and there) is a stunning map for the time, and is still rather impressive even now. It's not my favourite map of the wad, but it is the map that I left AV thinking was a must-play.

[Cynical]

2 minutes ago, Inno said:

Same with Hell Revealed. I'm not terribly fond of slaughtermaps personally, but if someone is interested in them, HR2 is a lot more refined in that regard.

...Are you on drugs?

[Inno]

6 minutes ago, Cynical said:

...Are you on drugs?

...Are you capable of actually using words to have a civil discussion?

[Cynical]

Not when someone walks up to me and says "the sky is yellow in the daytime!"

[Inno]

Just now, Cynical said:

Not when someone walks up to me and says "the sky is yellow in the daytime!"

Ah, I see. You're just interested in spouting more shit. Got it.

[Cynical]

HR2 is so blatantly and entirely fucked up in just about every regard that anyone saying that it's more polished than a well-regarded classic is absolutely farcical on par with someone saying "dogs have six eyes!"

 

I mean, we're talking about the wad that has a (on UV) mandatory blind SR-50 secret that you get exactly one shot at.  HR2 seems like it was made by a pack of drooling idiots who had no understanding of HR other than "omg, lots of monsters!"

[Test Tickle]

I personally have a distaste in all slaughtermaps.

[GarrettChan]

4 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

And that fireball clipping bug isn't one I've observed in ZDoom and its derivatives, but I do know it can happen in Crispy Doom and I think in PRBoom.

 

That doesn't happen / or does happen in (G)ZDoom? I had been using (G)ZDoom solely before switching to PrBoom+, and I have yet found that clipping bug, so I'm not sure about this.

 

It definitely happens on any port that wants to emulate original thing behaviors. Hell Knight fireballs can also clip through walls in -Fast settings.

 

3 hours ago, AD_79 said:

"bad monster placement"

 

Think of 50mon Map28 ;P (I actually like that map at lot.)

[bonnie]

47 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

You give 4 factors that are relevant to difficulty: skill, RNG, foreknowledge, and patience.

All of which were quite obviously just examples, and not every factor in difficulty that's ever existed.

 

47 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

All of these can be tested by a game except for RNG, so I suggest lumping that one that into patience, because if you get bad RNG and die, you have to try again and your patience is tested.

That's ridiculous. If there's no way to control, avoid, or counteract the RNG, then you're just at the mercy of the game, which isn't fun in most scenarios. You should just be allowed to play, not hope the game lets you play.

On the subject of patience, I was, again, quite obviously not referring to games where patience is a core part of the game, I was referring to games that normally shouldn't be testing your patience and/or ones that test your patience by turning it into a game of "how long can you last before getting bored and quitting?" (such as through RNG).

 

47 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

I think the same can be said for foreknowledge: if something kills you because you didn't know about it, you have to try again, but this time with the required foreknowledge.

Once again, I was quite obviously not talking about games where such a process is a core part of the game. Imagine Cynical's scenario with the 10 switches, and imagine that it wasn't random. It would require foreknowledge to know which switch was the correct one, if it gave no clues whatsoever. Also imagine games that don't effectively teach you how to play or ones that keep you from progressing at all because you don't have the foreknowledge to understand what's going on and what to do. I already know what you're erroneously thinking, and no, well made puzzles don't count. Imagine instead that you were playing an FPS, and halfway through an 4 hour level, you come across a massive gap. Unbeknownst to you, you have to do a very specific combination of button presses in a very specific spot to propel yourself across the gap. Or worse, you have to travel halfway back through the level to find a hidden lever that just got revealed in order to raise an invisible platform in the middle of the gap. These are quite obviously wild exaggerations, but they're examples of how testing foreknowledge and patience can create artificial difficulty.

 

So yes, I guess if you pretend that different games don't have differing concepts of skill and thus different kinds of artificial difficulty, and then proceed to massively misconstrue and badly misunderstand everything I say (possibly on purpose?), then yeah it's not artificial difficulty. Even within a game there can be different ideas of skill, such as with speedrunning, which requires foreknowledge and patience as they're essential to speedrunning in general and depending on the game, a skilled speedrunner and a skilled casual player can be completely different.

 

It would be nice if you didn't have to clarify every single sentence you type on here, lest somebody come by and try to use the sole exception to your argument as a viable counterargument.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

3 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

That doesn't happen / or does happen in (G)ZDoom? I had been using (G)ZDoom solely before switching to PrBoom+, and I have yet found that clipping bug, so I'm not sure about this.

Not under normal circumstances, no, as I'm aware.

I think the way GZDoom handles collision, in normal circumstances, it prevents it from happening.

It's possible that Boom and Doom compatibility in GZD emulate this behavior, but I'm not sure.

[Inno]

1 hour ago, Cynical said:

HR2 is so blatantly and entirely fucked up in just about every regard that anyone saying that it's more polished than a well-regarded classic is absolutely farcical on par with someone saying "dogs have six eyes!"

 

I mean, we're talking about the wad that has a (on UV) mandatory blind SR-50 secret that you get exactly one shot at.  HR2 seems like it was made by a pack of drooling idiots who had no understanding of HR other than "omg, lots of monsters!"

The first HR feels every bit the 1997 wad it is. Is it well regarded? Sure, and deservedly so, considering what it was when it released. But it isn't perfect. It's flawed, just like HR2. They both have their fair share of weak maps, and uninteresting or poor encounter design. HR's map design has aged massively, due to how basic it is. And all you actually have to say definitively in opposition to HR2 is that a single map has an issue on UV. That'd be a pretty damning indictment if it were a single map, but it's not. If you think the encounters aren't as interesting or solid in HR2, I see understand that.. There's plenty of encounters in both wads that I think were terrible and fell into "here's a bunch of monsters!" with nothing backing up the design. But, for me, I think HR1 fell into that trap more often than HR2.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. I've already expressed that my experience with these wads is on HMP. Mrthejoshmon has stated in past that he played on HNTR or HMP on initial runs of megawads. So your complaint of the mandatory secret on UV isn't really relevant to myself or to him. But, hey, if you like HR1 is think it's worth going through, just give him the recommendation and be done with it.

 

Also, it's not exactly some unheard of thing for someone to like HR2 more than the first one, so stop pretending like this is a new concept to you. Even the reviews on the archive demonstrate others who say the same. And *really* stop with the dramatic nonsense, e.g. "...is absolutely farcical on par with someone saying "dogs have six eyes!" You sound like an idiot with stuff like this. In case you've forgotten, you're talking about mods for a video game. It's okay. People can disagree with you sometimes on video games. Relax, man, relax. People have enough problems in their lives today without making more for themselves.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Inno : Just to make my point more concise.

[Benjogami]

@bonnie

 

It doesn't matter how bold or italicized you make it, all you're doing is repeating an even more poorly formed version of your original argument and adding some derision to it, without addressing any of my points. And you most certainly don't know what I'm thinking. Even your obvious wild exaggerations aren't artificial difficulty. Call it stupid, unfun, bullshit, or whatever else. I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'll address this:

 

Quote

[...] I was referring to games that normally shouldn't be testing your patience [...]

 

And who decides which games should do what? Might it be the designer? In any case, I was referring to all games, which includes Doom and your hypothetical games, so it doesn't even matter. You're only convincing me further that the concept of artificial difficulty exists only to blame the designer for one's own bad feelings, by insisting there's something objectively incorrect about how they made something. Maybe it's just not fun for you? Maybe it's not even for you.

 

Even if it's so unfun that it makes you feel bad about yourself and your life on this planet, it's still not artificial difficulty.