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Mr. T

Terrorist Shoots and Kills 80 in Norway

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He wrote a 1500 paged, 777,191 word book outlining his beliefs


So he deliberately takes contrary positions for the sake of writing incredibly long arguements?

A newspaper printed a picture of the cover of his (e-presumably) book and it appears to be in English? Is there copies of it drifting around, teh crazy is often an interesting read (like those columbine documents from a few years ago).

The paper also said that he wrote a story called something like "London 2021" about Britain being taken over by Muslims... only days after the paper had run a scare story about lots of "brown" (and therefore muslim, obviously) babies being born.

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I downloaded and read a large portion of his manifesto. It's disturbing in many notions.

The writer is obviously quite intelligent and lays out a very three dimensional argument justifying his and future actions by would-be militants. It's a hybrid of paramilitary tactics and political/social rhetoric. Reading though, you can get a real sense of how dangerous these writings are.

On the BBC this morning, the authorities detaining Breivik were answering questions regarding his political positions and state of mind. The officer said that he couldn't stop talking about his manifesto, to the point where he was becoming quite an annoyance.

It seems to me the entire thing was a sickening book promotion.

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Ed said:

On the BBC this morning, the authorities detaining Breivik were answering questions regarding his political positions and state of mind. The officer said that he couldn't stop talking about his manifesto, to the point where he was becoming quite an annoyance.


Oooh boy, that must have been fun for them... The interrogators must have been trying real hard to restrain themselves from smacking this guy upside the head with a billy club for talking way too much.

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Why restrain? They should just whack him upside the head with a billy club. Of course, he could be one of those guys who likes that kind of stuff...

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Ed said:

I downloaded and read a large portion of his manifesto. It's disturbing in many notions.

The writer is obviously quite intelligent and lays out a very three dimensional argument justifying his and future actions by would-be militants. It's a hybrid of paramilitary tactics and political/social rhetoric. Reading though, you can get a real sense of how dangerous these writings are.

You should also bear in mind that a very healthy chunk of the book was pure plagiarism. Quite a bit word for word stolen from ted kazinskis 'industrial society and it's future'.

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deathbringer said:

So he deliberately takes contrary positions for the sake of writing incredibly long arguements?

A newspaper printed a picture of the cover of his (e-presumably) book and it appears to be in English? Is there copies of it drifting around, teh crazy is often an interesting read (like those columbine documents from a few years ago).

The paper also said that he wrote a story called something like "London 2021" about Britain being taken over by Muslims... only days after the paper had run a scare story about lots of "brown" (and therefore muslim, obviously) babies being born.


It is in English. He wrote it under the pseudonym Andrew Berwick.

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"in a Norwegian Norway this tragedy would never have happened"
Unbelievable.

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Quast said:

You should also bear in mind that a very healthy chunk of the book was pure plagiarism. Quite a bit word for word stolen from ted kazinskis 'industrial society and it's future'.

Heh, reminds me of the "poetry" of Eric Harris. It was a bunch of fucking KMFDM lyrics welded together badly. :/

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Wagi said:

"in a Norwegian Norway this tragedy would never have happened"
Unbelievable.


Yeah, it is like blaming a raped victim that if she havent dressed so sexy then she would never get raped.
Unbelievable, definetly.

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The intent of charging him with "crimes against humanity" is preposterous though, as NATO powers and the US-led invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan made many more victims yet not even the perpetrators of obvious abuses at Abu Ghraib or the white phosphorous "shake and bake" tactics used against Falluja's insurgents were even considered as such. And making a selective application of any label is worse than making no application at all.

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Well, he is meant to be one of the good guys! With his blonde hair and pretty blue eyes.

Also, we were bombing Iraq and Afghanistan to help them be our partners in the war on Terrorism! Jeez Maes

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"Crimes against humanity" is a silly political label. It would be more appropriate to lay that charge on people who impede science than insane terrorists.

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Clonehunter said:

They should just whack him upside the head with a billy club.

Whack him with a copy of his manifesto, that's probably the best use it could be put to.

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GreyGhost said:

Whack him with a copy of his manifesto, that's probably the best use it could be put to.


Nah, I'd be like "Hey, buddy! This is what I think of your manifesto." then take a huge dump on it, and laugh at him and call him a plagarising psychotic loser.

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He used bullets that mushroomed in his attack. Either hollow point or soft point. Lead deforms faster inside the target than a full jacketed round, leaves more significant internal injury. Not that you would ever want to be shot by bullets; but these are worst rounds you can get hit by. You'd drop instantly. Conversely, these types of rounds outlawed by the Hague convention for use in warfare.

I find it odd that some have given him the label of a Nazi or white supremacist. His views are very much anti-fascist, pro-homosexual, conservative and pro-Israel. He also claims to be anti-multicultural, yet anti-racist, but I guess that's due to his specific hatred of Muslims.


It has been suggested that his attacks were motivated by the youth camp's protests against the Israeli occupation of Palestine:
http://tinyurl.com/3zggtjx

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Since it hasn't been brought up here...apparently "only" 68 died on Utöya and eight people died in the bombing, totalling at 76 deaths instead of the previous +90 or so.

Source (via Google Translate)


Edit:

POTGIESSER said:

It has been suggested that his attacks were motivated by the youth camp's protests against the Israeli occupation of Palestine:
http://tinyurl.com/3zggtjx

Breivik has stated himself that his intended target on Utöya was a previous prime minister who was having a speech there that day. However she had just left the island a moment before Breivik arrived.

Source

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POTGIESSER said:

He also claims to be anti-multicultural, yet anti-racist


It's also possible to be multicultural and yet "racist" as in:

"Yeah, I'm all pro a multicultural/multiethnic world/whatever, as long as all those ethnicities stay in their own countries and/or when in MY country, they behave no differently than anyone else".

That, or a milder version of "conditional tolerance" (which I would support, if any politician seriously advocated it): all immigrants are welcome, provided they would sign a committing agreement that they forfeit any and all expectations and demands from their new host country to abide to their particular cultural or religious needs.

This means e.g. that Muslims in particular CANNOT ask that e.g. Crucifixes are removed from our classrooms or courts of law, that the state builds them Mosques, and they CANNOT go around dressed in burqas. If they can't even agree to a simple friendly agreement not to give grief to their new hosts, they automatically forfeit any rights to tolerance and protection granted them by the law, and will be much better off going elsewhere.

If they have the money to build their own schools and mosques as private citizens and enterprises, that's another story of course, but still they wouldn't have the right to have e.g. Islamic courts.

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POTGIESSER said:

I find it odd that some have given him the label of a Nazi or white supremacist. His views are very much anti-fascist, pro-homosexual, conservative and pro-Israel. He also claims to be anti-multicultural, yet anti-racist, but I guess that's due to his specific hatred of Muslims.


How can he be anti-fascist when he is for the reeducation, deportation or extermination of any and all dissenters (dubbed "cultural marxists" even if such a moniker doesn't make sense) and obsessed by the ideal of a strong cultural identity to stave off the decadence created by foreign agents?

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Gez said:

How can he be anti-fascist when he is for the reeducation, deportation or extermination of any and all dissenters


Probably in the same way that The democratic country per excellency (to the point that they deem themselves fit to "reeducate" others in the field) has no problem accepting stuff like this and this. And let's not even talk about older racist discriminatory laws in times of peace.

IMO, a democracy stops being a true democracy when it condones any form of extraordinary measures. Since sometimes they are indeed necessary, it's impossible to have a purely democratic rule (including all of a citizen's rights intact) all of the time.

In ancient Rome, democracy was knowingly suspended in times of dire need where all powers were given to a single dictator (because there are situations like military emergencies where democracy just doesn't work, and the ancient Romans knew it) but this was both:

  • Officially acknowledged NOT to be democracy
  • Temporary (unless it wasn't. Know what I mean?)
Today, the trend is to never declare a) but when even certain democratic freedoms are suspended, it's by definition not a full democracy but something else.

I may have moved OT, but I wanted to illustrate how you can be non-fascist, and yet advocate/apply some measures clearly associated with fascist or oppressive regimes without apparent contradictions.

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Gez said:

How can he be anti-fascist when he is for the reeducation, deportation or extermination of any and all dissenters (dubbed "cultural marxists" even if such a moniker doesn't make sense) and obsessed by the ideal of a strong cultural identity to stave off the decadence created by foreign agents?

What Maes said. Breivik is full of fucking contradictions. I was skimming through his derp, has directions on making things that go boom. In area he babbles on about every little nuance of his Justicar crap. He has an entry where he shows a badge featuring a crucifix impaling a skull. The skull's forehead features the symbols of Islam, Nazism, and Communism. He defines them all as being symbols of "hate". Communism is refereed to as multiculturalism in parenthesis.

Maes said:

It's also possible to be multicultural and yet "racist" as in:

"Yeah, I'm all pro a multicultural/multiethnic world/whatever, as long as all those ethnicities stay in their own countries and/or when in MY country, they behave no differently than anyone else".

That, or a milder version of "conditional tolerance" (which I would support, if any politician seriously advocated it): all immigrants are welcome, provided they would sign a committing agreement that they forfeit any and all expectations and demands from their new host country to abide to their particular cultural or religious needs.

Such a document would be seen as a religious intolerance, and human rights shit storm. All religions and said established institutions would have to be treated equally. They would have to conform to said document in respect to treatment from the government. Not just new arrivals of a minority faith.

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Hitler was similar, forging his conception out of a syncretic mix of fragments selected from different sources which often contradicted his uses of the citations, in their original context.

POTGIESSER said:
I find it odd that some have given him the label of a Nazi or white supremacist.

He's a Judeo-Christian fascist (using the broad definition of the term, as we don't mean the Italian party under Mussolini). A fascist (or "Nazi") is more or less a "tribal extremist" in this general sense. This guy is a fascist that has updated his stance with neocon reactionary identity-fabrication techniques which operate in a more global manner than traditional national fascism. Traditional racialism was based on (now) archaic notions of race and a certain international framework focused on nation-states, but now with the advancement of science, humanities and super-national initiatives, it has been replaced by broader, vaguer notions of similar ideas. It even seems like the reactionary right is a somewhat confused, and people like this are trying to generate a focus by shock. Muslim extremists are similar, and so was the US after 911. It looks like "the end of ideology" really means "the end of our ideas." The right-wing attempt to force an "apolitical world" based on their vision made them confuse themselves. If you lie all the time, you end up losing yourself in the maze of your fabrications.

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maybe


when I put myself in his trousers (in my imagination) I guess that he think that everything should have its own place physically in this world and that he hates spread of cultures, different so called "races" of humans (this could mean that he is a racist, wether he says so or not) because he finds these as a threath of something he values quite high, since he did this shit he must either be emotionally manipulated by an even more derpish crank-head or he is independently emotionally fucked up. a way to come from to this is that his life was unimaginably dry, empty, terrible, such things warp peoples minds.

thats how I puzzle it


uh btw ... this page saying that TWO more are out there?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3714620/Norway-murderer-Anders-Breivik-This-isnt-the-end.html

and this seem to explain some? uh well read

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POTGIESSER said:

What Maes said. Breivik is full of fucking contradictions.


It is pretty clearly fascist ideology, just with the idea of racial superiority replaced by cultural incompatibility. Instead of saying "kill the Arabs because they're untermenschen" it's "kill the Arabs because Islam is antagonist to our civilization".

And just like fascism or nazism, the first target isn't so much the "external threat" but the "internal" one, that is to say, all the Socialists, Communists and other traitors who would rather live peacefully. (Even though the historical Nazi party featured the word "socialism" in its name, it was fiercely opposed to all forms of classical socialism or communism, and received the support of business lobbies which saw it as the best defense against the spread of communism.) Breivik may have rejected some parts of historical fascism, the core elements of the ideology -- cultural uniformity, indoctrination, fascination with violence, rejection of the other and foreign, contempt for the weak, hatred of the left-wing -- are there. Claiming to be anti-Nazi because you've switched discredited racial beliefs with cultural considerations is weaksauce.

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that sounds like he is worried that the culture that is in the north will fade away because of heavy imigration, and up here we are few and south they are not so few as we. but thats bullshit, cus if youre about to live in north europe you have to adapt to the system or end up in a club by your own.

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