Doom II is actually pretty great :-)

[DoomUK]

Doom, Doom 2, TNT and Plutonia all have their share of great maps and not-so-great maps.

[Reiken]

Doom 2 was really incredible in its time (think of the first time you encounter the mass teleport in map16, the cyber vs spider duel in 20, the sprawl of 13 and 15..). I almost wonder if a lot of the 'hate' for it is really some kind of communal competitive spirit to continually try and surpass it (all these years later...). I'd bet in a desert island scenario, most would pick Doom2 over the other iwads/megawads.

The gimmicky-ness of some of the maps probably hurt it some, but id was forging the benchmark themselves and probably wanted to try and coax everything they could from their design ideas, within reason.

My favorite maps to pick up and play at random are probably 05, 06, 09, 11, 12, 18, 19.

Also, this:
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[kristus]

Doom2 is great. End of story. Fuck you to anyone who think they can dictate what hell is supposed to look like.

Marnetmar said:

Hell levels, in my opinion, require three essential things. Black, red, and fire (as in animated fire textures or lava). Not brown, green and a couple of torches.

So you wanted Doom 2 to employ as little imagination as possible in it's level design?

[Lüt]

esselfortium said:

Doom II is actually pretty great :-)

That's ironic. Just the other day, I was playing some Doom2 maps and I imagined you crying about the haphazard texturing job :P

Honestly, I have to admit, I think a number of the maps still stand as prime references for sloppy design after all these years.

Yet despite that, they're the maps that I keep playing over and over, because regardless of how good or bad certain maps look, they all have an excellent balance of monster challenges, layout variety, gameplay tactics, and an overall atmosphere that transcends any specific design issues.

I agree with all of the other "favorite parts" comments, especially Tetzlaff on The Chasm, and I think that all the maps have some kind of redeeming value - whether it's the looks or the play - that makes them just as fun and relevant now as they were when they first came out.

[DeathevokatioN]

Doom 2 is bigger, better and more sinister than the original Doom. Each map is distinct, and gameplay wise it totally mops the floor with Doom.

Marnetmar said:

Yeah I meant E3. But look at the red rock textures, the red bricks. They look like they're actually red hot. Look at the mutilated bodies nailed to the walls, look at the walls made of flesh. Look at the dark corridors and animated fire textures.

THAT is what I define as hell.

What Kristus said. Trying to define a place that you've never been to is fucking retarded. You come across as one of those mindless UD fans who are hysterically clutching at straws in an attempt to bash Doom 2.

Maps like Monster Condo, Living End, The Chasm, and Spirit World have an abstract, deformed and surreal Love Craftian atmosphere which lets your imagination fill in the gaps, which is far more elaborate than generic fire n flames "oh its gettin hot in here" red rock hell, and they play better too. ;)

[Vader]

Doom2 is great!

Most of Doom2's hell maps scared the shit out of me when I was younger and that alone makes them hellish enough to me. 23, 25 and 27 always have been especially creepy and I still kind of get that feeling when replaying those maps in the original exe. There're really only a handfull of maps I don't like in Doom2, definitely less than in Doom.

I also love Revenants and Arch-viles, they're the most scary enemies in the game IMO!

[datadanne]

SeanWJF said:

I love TNT's stats screen music!

hell yeah! That soundtrack is epic good ripoff!

[DoomUK]

Vader said:

I also love Revenants and Arch-viles, they're the most scary enemies in the game IMO!

Arch-viles still manage to pwn me on most occasions. I'm sure there's an established tactic to deal with them in the most efficient way but I haven't quite mastered it even after all these years.

[C30N9]

Doom 2 is the Doom. The maps are beautiful, awesome, trappy and so much more.

Seriously, in Doom 2 you have more variety in gameplay and more traps, and the maps were detailed good.

In Doom 1 E2, all the maps have the same gameplay, explore through corridors and exit, and there were no interesting traps (except E2M6 which was the best). Same as E3, except Limbo. You know why I love that?Because it has special things in it and interesting gameplay, which why I sometimes call a Doom 2 map. Anyway, E2 and E3 looks PWADy in the 19s.

Now look how Peterson got a lot better in Doom 2.

[Phobus]

Before I go on to agree with this thread, I will give two reasons why I don't like Doom II (and really, its two shades of the same reason):

1) I'm sick of the Icon of Sin - it wasn't any good in Doom II and it is usually worse in PWADs.

2) I'm tired of Dead Simple homages. One nice thing about ZDoom and other ports is that theres no need to have that sort of behaviour on just MAP07 and therefore it usually gets used a bit less predictably.


Now then, I love Doom II. Mostly as a study in creative mapping more than anything else these days, as I know most of the maps very well and a lot of the challenge is gone. It is far from the best looking set of Doom maps you'll play, but its probably still one of the most intelligent. The dark atmosphere and fast-paced gameplay, with all the additions it has over the original Doom, is definitely still a winner.

[Antroid]

I just want to pop in to say that while a lot of music in TNT is horrible, map06's is one of the better ones. That is all.
I have no opinion on doom vs doom 2 anymore. Initially i didn't like it because of some levels (like tricks and traps and barrels o fun), but i grew to appreciate the feeling of the game and how it evolved from doom 1. Still i think i like doom 1 a little better due to nostalgia, since i played doom 2 a lot later.

[phobosdeimos1]

I love Doom II's maps! The 100% exclusively Sandy maps are the best in my fat opinion

[Daiyu_Xiaoxiang]

Well, I think both Doom and Doom 2 are great. I like the SSG and the new monsters are good also. The only IWAD I dislike is Plutonia, which design is too ugly!

[NiuHaka]

I like this thread. This is funny because back in the day I liked Doom much more than Doom II for reasons that i can't really remember. I think that part of it was that I actually felt like I was playing through some kind of story... Not sure really.

I came back to Doom last fall and played through Doom and then Doom II and the whole thing was new to me again but this time Doom II was worlds better than Doom. When I first started Doom II and played through map01 I was like "Wow these maps are ugly" but then I didn't have that experience a single time after. The maps were so much better than most of what I found in Doom and the game-play was just more fun and inventive.

And what's with all the Icon of Sin hate? I really enjoyed that one this time around.

[DuckReconMajor]

I like the Chasm and Icon of Sin but I don't really like Dead Simple all that much. And I don't really like the city levels. And I prefer the aesthetic of Doom 1 to Doom 2. I mean why don't these people arguing that Doom 2 is more advanced go play Quake or something even more modern? Because they like Doom? Then why can't I like Doom 1?

[esselfortium]

But who called it modern? I just think the maps are more fun to play and more interesting to look at :-\

[DuckReconMajor]

esselfortium said:

the level design of nearly every map is noticeably more advanced

esselfortium said:

open sandbox-layout style of gameplay

esselfortium said:

the game engine's limits were significantly increased and various bugs were fixed to allow Doom II's taller, more complex, and more grand-scale levels

I'd say these things went toward making Doom 2 a more advanced and modern game than the original.

[esselfortium]

Well, yes, it's more advanced. That's not really a surprise, because it was made a year later with more experience and slightly higher system requirements, though I don't think it's "modern" in the sense that modern FPS games aren't really anything like it.

I'm not really sure what you were getting at with the suggestion that we should play Quake because we like Doom 2, in any case.

[NiuHaka]

Yeah, I hate quake (ready to dodge incoming quake tomatoes) and LOVE Doom & Doom II...

[Marnetmar]

I loved Quake 1. The rest of the series not so much.

[valkiriforce]

40oz said:

Doom 2's maps are awesome. Even if they don't follow a progressive storyline (at least that of which is easy to interpret) it is easily the best possible set of levels to play when you need ideas for making maps with good gameplay. The entire set of levels applies different styles for any player with a different layout of weapons and monsters and areas to fight in.

Agreed, Doom II is a great inspiration for me. I'd say both Doom and Doom II fulfilled the gaming community's needs: for people who enjoy more consistent designs and themes - Doom 1. For those who enjoy variety in their games - Doom II. I thoroughly enjoy both games, but I would prefer Doom II due to the expanded layouts, monsters, and the SSG.

[Clonehunter]

I find Doom II and Quake II worthy sequels to their original counterparts. Doom II has it's good levels (Living End, Entryway, Tricks and Traps, Suburbs) and it's bad levels (Monster Condo, Refueling Base), but otherwise it's great.

[Coopersville]

esselfortium said:

What are your favorite parts of Doom 2?

The mapping and modding community.

[Reisal]

From Doom to Doom II, what was raised in the engine limits?

[elic]

Many Petersen's Doom 2 maps are just randomly shaped rooms covered with random textures and containing random monsters and items to me. MAPs 19, 27, 28, and 30 are his only doom 2 maps I think are good. MAP09 is the worst of all the id levels.

[Antroid]

Processingcontrol said:

MAP09 is the worst of all the id levels.

I'll still have to go with tricks n traps. Don't remember what map number that was though.
Also quake 2 is the most boring game.

[Marnetmar]

Processingcontrol said:

MAP09 is the worst of all the id levels.

I loved MAP09.

[Blastfrog]

By the way, esselfortium, is MAP10 "Wolfenstein crap" to you because it was made by Tom Hall? :P

[purist]

I don't know why this thread has turned into a Doom vs Doom II debate. Doom II can be actually pretty great without being taking as a slur against it's predecessor.

To answer the original question the things I like about Doom II are the new monsters, gun, other lesser resources and maybe half of the maps. I only wish they made Doom 3 in 1996 or included the extra resources in Final Doom.

[Koko Ricky]

"Doom II is a great game that gets a terrible reputation..."

Where the hell did this come from? I've even heard modern gamers praise Doom/Doom 2. In fact, I can't really think of anyone who doesn't like it.