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MegaDoomer

Good commercial addons for Doom (II) - ignore poll quetion for now, read first post

What are the best two non-freeware Doom (II) expansions in your opinion?  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. What are the best two non-freeware Doom (II) expansions in your opinion?

    • The Lost Episodes
      1
    • Perdition`s Gate
      11
    • Hell To Pay (use demo as quality gauge for this and above if you don`t have full)
      5
    • Master Levels
      8
    • Final Doom
      33
    • No Rest for the Living
      18
    • None are any good.
      1
    • Other (please specify)
      1


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Which commercial (not legally available as freeware) expansions for Doom/Doom II are good in your opinion?

I allowed multiple choices but would prefer generally two per voter. EDIT: No longer the case, any ones you liked should be picked (see note below).

Feel free to add comments in additon. :)

My picks are No Rest for the Living and Perdition's Gate.

Note: Compilations of levels that are mostly also available online or legal to distribute, like Maximum Doom, Doom Mania, or D!Zone don't count. Neither does anything turned into freeware officially (i.e. Hacx). Also I have no idea why the slashes appear in some names; just ignore them.

EDIT: Also I've changed my preferred rule; select the ones you liked regardless of how many. Leave the ones you didn't like unselected. Too bad the poll question cannot be edited, but what I put down here overrides it.

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I've not played The Lost Episodes or No Rest For The Living, but I enjoyed Master Levels and Final Doom the best. Master Levels had cool puzzles (Jim Flynn) clever innovative designs (Sverre Kvernmo) and simple yet effective design quirks (Christen Klie) that have influenced me quite a bit.

Final Doom's Plutonia Experiment felt really clever to me; and I still thoroughly enjoy it for its simple-yet-fun architecture which has also influenced me. TNT is pretty wide and expansive, Doom II was wide and expansive to the first Doom, and I feel like TNT takes that to another level with maps like Pharoah, Deepest Reaches, Last Call, etc. They're both pretty cool and I like that both of them make Final Doom as a whole. I've always liked games that had two or more games within them (like Mario All-Stars) it's like an added bonus. Anyway, just my thoughts.

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valkiriforce said:

I've not played The Lost Episodes or No Rest For The Living, but I enjoyed Master Levels and Final Doom the best. Master Levels had cool puzzles (Jim Flynn) clever innovative designs (Sverre Kvernmo) and simple yet effective design quirks (Christen Klie) that have influenced me quite a bit.

Final Doom's Plutonia Experiment felt really clever to me; and I still thoroughly enjoy it for its simple-yet-fun architecture which has also influenced me. TNT is pretty wide and expansive, Doom II was wide and expansive to the first Doom, and I feel like TNT takes that to another level with maps like Pharoah, Deepest Reaches, Last Call, etc. They're both pretty cool and I like that both of them make Final Doom as a whole. I've always liked games that had two or more games within them (like Mario All-Stars) it's like an added bonus. Anyway, just my thoughts.


Thanks for replying and explaining. :) I always thought Final Doom was underrated, even though it's not in my top two but if I had decided on the different rule before voting I would have selected it. Just got Master Levels not long ago but haven't played much of it yet.

Just as a note, I edited the instructions for the poll above, for those who haven't picked yet feel free to pick whatever ones you liked. For those who have picked, but enjoyed another one, feel free to post about it. I updated my first post with the changed guidelines; ignore the poll question for now as I can't edit it and what I say in that post overrides it for the time being.

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These are the ones I thought were pretty good:

-Master Levels: Everything valkiriforce said about it (with the exception of the Jim Flynn maps because I have a severe dislike for his maps) sums up my feelings on Master Levels.

-Final Doom: I know that Doom 64 is considered by some to be the "unofficial Doom 3", so if we go by that, I feel like Final Doom served as an expansion pack to Doom 2. Evilution was one of the first WADs I played that had level design that made me feel like I was in a real place while still maintaining the fast, hectic game play of Ultimate Doom and Doom 2.

Plutonia Experiment was my first entry into the "slaughter" sub-genre of Doom WADs and since then I've more or less fallen in love with slaughter maps. The entire megawad also had a violent look to it to match with the game play. To me, there was something primal and animal-like about the level design, going from a Congo/Jungle setting to a wasteland-like Earth setting to a fleshy sky/hive and dilapidated Hell setting. The levels themselves let you know that you were going to be in for the fight of your life.

-No Rest For The Living: I loved this episode. It felt and played like a slaughter map set without actually being such. Start to finish was intense.

In regards to the others:

-Lost Episodes of Doom: I'm not exactly sure what I was expecting from this megawad aside from more levels. There were a few maps here and there I liked (the first map of episode three specifically) but beyond that I was disappointed with the overall quality, considering I've played other WADs released at the same time as this that were better.

-Perdition's Gate: While I felt it was better than Lost Episodes of Doom, overall it felt mediocre to me compared to the others on the list in terms of design, gameplay, and flow.

-Hell to Pay: Of all of the available add-ons, this has to be my least favorite one. The replacements for some of the weapons and monsters looked and felt really out of place. The level design actually managed to be as bland as Lost Episodes of Doom in most levels and in some, worse. There were maybe two or three levels that I enjoyed but beyond that, I couldn't stand Hell to Pay.

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First episode (the one that's free) of Perdition's Gate is awesome. The rest is awful arena crap where you get all weapons at the start and fight in 2 or 3 rooms. They just didn't try.

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I really enjoyed Perdition's Gate. The textures look great and the Mustaines really captured a distinct style with the Ancients levels (the middle episode). The jaunts to other planets were also quite neat, though not as commonplace as I would like. There are also some great mapping tricks from '96, with a few "scripted" sequences. The main downfall to Perdition's Gate (also found in Hell to Pay) is that many of the later maps are simply very short, and also mark the point where Jimmy Siebens and Mackey McCandlish helped complete the project. They were still fun to play but the endgame feels like it speeds on by up until the final few maps. The secret levels I feel are worth mentioning, though MAP31 plays distinctly better.

Hell to Pay has some missteps. The monster replacements (and some textures, like the new wood one) are mostly ugly as sin and don't fit in well with the Doom II monsters. As mentioned before, many of the latter levels (particularly after the Vile Temple) are just too short to justify a level spot and play like micro slaughter-maps. There are some great ideas, though, with nice layouts in many levels. The space ship maps can feel incredibly bland, but MAP15 is fantastic, MAP32 has a great gimmick, and the last three levels are a nice finish. Also a great macro shot of "planet Hell" that looks gorgeous in the software renderer.

Lost Episodes I've come around a bit on, but Klie made better maps for the master levels (and master level rejects!). They're unfortunately very bland and Carter's levels far too underpopulated to justify their massive size. They're not mindbendingly awful to play, just very, very '94. Klie's later levels in the project start to come together though, and he's pretty good at making puzzles to keep things interesting.

The quality of levels for Final Doom outweighs Perdition's Gate and Hell to Pay (imo) but I want to give the mapsets another playthrough in the future for a better perspective. There's just so much more Doom to be had with them, speaking in terms of level length. The wraithcorp WADs however showcase a more thorough aspect of the talents of two talented TNT mappers and have a bit more imagination which makes them stand out in my mind.

I haven't played all of the master levels, just Klie's stuff, but it was more memorable than his '94 offerings to me and if the rest of the project is even better, I'll be very happy.

Edit: quick mention, most of the lost episodes are actually available in their original forms on the archive. Chris K's "The final insult" covers all but one of his contributions and Carter has two up, b21.wad and an episode replacement I can't quite remember the name of, which apparently covers all but one of his contributions. Granted, Klie touched up carter's stuff for the Lost Eps, but I think the gameplay remains the same.

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Memfis said:

First episode (the one that's free) of Perdition's Gate is awesome. The rest is awful arena crap where you get all weapons at the start and fight in 2 or 3 rooms. They just didn't try.


(Doesn't matter anymore) but: That is probably a cheap trick of sorts that Wraith did on purpose to cash in on the game.

They're thought process was probably something like this: "I'll give 11 good levels so people are sure to buy the final product! Then they'll be dealing with poor levels and dissapointed and all, but hey, I made money on the game!"

Not a very honest method to cash on a game, but I'm afraid that was precisely what they were thinking.

On a side note, I thought NRFTL was going to take off with far more votes than anything else...but I'm guessing the percentage of the crowd that actually has it is lower.

Also TBH I don't think Final Doom got enough like when it was released...because Plutonia was better than just about anything except possibly Memento More at the time as far is megawads go. (Requiem, Eternal, HR, and the like weren't out yet!) And Evilution is not really that bad...though it far from attains the same spot in my mind as Plutonia.

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Since there's none I actually disliked, I went with the original question instead of checking them all.

I probably should play through PerdGate once more since I don't remember it being disappointing after the first episode. I mostly remember awesome music, cool textures, beautiful architecture and clever level design tricks.

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I'm also getting the picture that of the Wraith megawads, PerdGate is better, regardless of whether one thinks it's actually good or not.

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My favorite would either be Hell to Pay or Final Doom, bordering on Final Doom because it's two megawads in one and each one is pretty cool.

I hated Perditions Gate's music, I felt like I was on some luxury island sipping on some pink drink while dancing with a short haired blonde my age. But hey, that's not a bad thing, just not in Doom. :)

The levels were pretty cool though.

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DeathevokatioN said:

My favorite would either be Hell to Pay or Final Doom, bordering on Final Doom because it's two megawads in one and each one is pretty cool.

I hated Perditions Gate's music, I felt like I was on some luxury island sipping on some pink drink while dancing with a short haired blonde my age. But hey, that's not a bad thing, just not in Doom. :)

The levels were pretty cool though.


Do you have NRFTL?

Anyways, though, this thread is putting up a good talk IMO. :)

And I guess either method for selections is okay - pick top two if they're all good, or pick good ones if there's many you disliked. That sounds most sensible.

ps Final Doom was definitely underappreciated IMO by critics back in the 90s.

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I wouldn't say it was a cheap tactic and that's probably an unfair characterization. I didn't really get that impression from what Tom Mustaine wrote on his blog concerning his part in the project. If anything, the latter maps were rushed as a consequence of Siebens and McCandlish jumping on perdgate to help push both WADs out before whatever deadline they had to meet.

I mean, excepting the fact that both were unlicensed Doom II megawads to begin with, thus questionable on their face.

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kmxexii said:

I mean, excepting the fact that both were unlicensed Doom II megawads to begin with, thus questionable on their face.

Do you have anything to back up this serious allegation? People who were around at the time have stated that they did obtain a license from id.

BTW, please don't give links to any commercial wads, and don't make posts like "check your PMs ;)" in relation to these wads.

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Grazza said:

Do you have anything to back up this serious allegation? People who were around at the time have stated that they did purchase a license from id.

BTW, please don't give links to any commercial wads, and don't make posts like "check your PMs ;)" in relation to these wads.


Well, fuck! That's the first time I actually heard about it! I assumed they weren't, in part due to the stigma surrounding them. If they actually bought a license, then I apologize for my unfounded accusation and will adjust the information found on my blog accordingly (and cease repeating it). There isn't a whole lot of information about the expansions floating around on the net, sadly, and I'm afraid that in my own naïveté I've further muddied the subject.

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Grazza said:

Do you have anything to back up this serious allegation? People who were around at the time have stated that they did obtain a license from id.

BTW, please don't give links to any commercial wads, and don't make posts like "check your PMs ;)" in relation to these wads.


Sorry. :( I won't do any such action again, even if it ultimately leads somewhere off the site.

I had only thought direct linking on this site was penalizable (that was what I was warned for under a different user name 2 1/2 or so years ago); I did not know "hinting" per se even if it's ultimately off this site entirely was against the rules as well, so this was clearly my mistake. :( If I could just get by with a warning, that would be very apppreciated. :)

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Total votes=4+2+9+6=21. Why does is say 12 for total votes then? (Is it by the number of people who have voted, not the number of actual cast votes?)

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DeathevokatioN said:

My favorite would either be Hell to Pay or Final Doom [...]

I hated Perditions Gate's music


The soundtrack in PG and the soundtrack in HTP are the same (except for the titlescreen, the intermission and tally screens, and one single level each).

MegaDoomer said:

(Is it by the number of people who have voted, not the number of actual cast votes?)


Obviously.

This tells you that on average, a voter clicks on 1.75 boxes. :p

GreyGhost said:

What! No love for Ultimate Doom (or more specifically - Episode 4)?!


It's not a commercial expansion since the patch to update from registered to ultimate was released freely by Id Software.

(Same thing for Shadow of the Serpent Riders for Heretic, anecdotally.)

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Final Doom ftw.

NRFTL was awesome, one of the best episodes I have played in some time.

Perdition's gate would have got a vote if it was all as good as the first episode, as already mentioned, so I won't labor the whole 'everything past level 11 is one long uninteresting repeat of itself.'

And I confess that I have never played the Master levels or Hell to Pay. Which is probably just about worthy of a place in the 'Doom Confessional' thread.

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I've only played "Final Doom." I don't have an XBox (I'm too poor and, well, I don't like the Xbox anyway), so I can't play "No Rest for the Living," and I don't have the "Master Levels" right now, so...I'm kind of out of the loop :(. But "Final Doom" is an ultimate classic, in my opinion. "The Plutonia Experiment" was gorgeous and challenging, and I enjoyed "Evilution" even though it isn't received as favorably amongst Doomers.

Technically, I'd have to say (Ultimate) Doom and Plutonia are my two favorites of the classic IWADs by id, as they have the most memorable moments and the most charm :).

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Not that anyone cares, but I just discovered that E2M5 of The Lost Episodes of Doom is MAP28 of Chris Klie's BF_THUD!.WAD, the only difference being some otherwise unavailable Former Human Commandos. The only map I can't account for is E3M6 which to my knowledge does not have a public release.

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It's odd that Final Doom has the most votes given it's critical reviews way back in the day were far from bright.

But then again, some games just gain support as time goes by. Especially ones as popular as Doom and the like!

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Perdition's gate and Hell to pay are sometimes good, sometimes bad but the lot of creativity which seems on the intermissions and on the levels are incredible.

Final Doom is... just Final Doom Plutonia is hard but playable is modern source ports. Evilution is better. Evilution is something custom, which I've always loved.

I didn't tried the other one, but this 3 was good for me.

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