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GoatLord

C'mon, are we really fucked? (Americans)

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For years, I've been hearing people--in real life, television, the Internet, radio, etc.--discuss how America is changing for the worse. We bring up 1984, complain about how new policies are affecting us, and shake our heads at those in power, believing that this country will go to hell in a hand basket in very little time.

And yet, here I sit, still with all the rights I've ever had. I have not felt a single violation in my rights as an American citizen since 9/11. Are we just worrying for nothing? Or am I the one being delusional?

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If this were two decades ago, I'm fairly sure I'd have a much better paying job, so there's that.

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GoatLord said:

For years, I've been hearing people--in real life, television, the Internet, radio, etc.--discuss how America is changing for the worse. We bring up 1984, complain about how new policies are affecting us, and shake our heads at those in power, believing that this country will go to hell in a hand basket in very little time.

And yet, here I sit, still with all the rights I've ever had. I have not felt a single violation in my rights as an American citizen since 9/11. Are we just worrying for nothing? Or am I the one being delusional?


Not really. People on Doomworld tend to exageratte quite a bit when it comes to political discussions.

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It's a very gradual change, but sure enough civil rights are being eroded.

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hex11 said:

It's a very gradual change, but sure enough civil rights are being eroded.


Are you sure about that? Because if you're in America and you're brown, there's all kinds of systems in place designed to help you get ahead.

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Well if you look at how hard America's trying to fuck up the Internet, with the two bills in consideration right now (that I know of), I'm kind of feeling annoyed with America right now, yes.

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Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think the Internet has been around too long, and has become too powerful, for anything to stop it now. If they had tackled this non-issue 15 or 20 years ago, when the public Internet was still an unfamiliar entity, maybe we'd be in trouble. But the Internet as a popular form of media has not yet peaked; it just keeps getting more and more mainstream. I don't think we should believe that it can be taken away from us.

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GoatLord said:

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think the Internet has been around too long, and has become too powerful, for anything to stop it now. If they had tackled this non-issue 15 or 20 years ago, when the public Internet was still an unfamiliar entity, maybe we'd be in trouble. But the Internet as a popular form of media has not yet peaked; it just keeps getting more and more mainstream. I don't think we should believe that it can be taken away from us.


It can if they keep making laws to get rid of so much of the internet. Do you know how much of Youtube is taken up by "copyrighted works" such as music, games, and TV, even parodies? Probably not as much as I think, but still a very, very large amount. If that bill passes, a LOT of Youtube users will likely use Youtube much less or not at all, including myself.
Which would be really unfair for people in other countries who use American sites.

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I agree with that, and as a YouTube addict I'm certainly worried. But there's a ton of other non-porno Tube sites that host all kinds of cool videos that aren't even on YouTube. I think this will make a very small dent in Internet freedom, just like with Napster. Nowadays, you have Torrent and all kinds of other programs with which to grab music and other media. YouTube will just be replaced by something even more powerful, I imagine.

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GoatLord said:

I agree with that, and as a YouTube addict I'm certainly worried. But there's a ton of other non-porno Tube sites that host all kinds of cool videos that aren't even on YouTube. I think this will make a very small dent in Internet freedom, just like with Napster. Nowadays, you have Torrent and all kinds of other programs with which to grab music and other media. YouTube will just be replaced by something even more powerful, I imagine.

You know the laws passed will effect every streaming site, right? It's the law, and websites hosting such copyrighted material can be severely punished. No video streaming site will take the chance. And with this faux Child Pornography bill I just posted, it'll forces every ISP to record and make available your download history, including accessing torrent sites and downloading copyrighted files.

Quit being so naive.

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If he found a streaming site not based in the US, he might be able to use that, as I doubt our government has that much power over other countries' rights. Though if both laws pass, they can check our ISP and find that we are viewing gaming videos, for example. So yeah.

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I'myourtarget said:

I doubt our government has that much power over other countries' rights.

You should ask that question in the Middle East some time.

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GoatLord said:

Are we just worrying for nothing? Or am I the one being delusional?


No, not at all. It isn't just America, its the whole world.

America is going to lose its reserve currency status, so living high on the hog will be impossible. It was set up as the debt consumer/creator properly after WW2, after UK sterling was exhausted.
China was giving us what(?) $1billion a day back in 2007 to subsidize our $1 trillion a year trade deficit, since we have outsourced our real economy (manufacturing/factory labor) to cheap labor countries (like china). From what I understand, this (outsourcing starting in the 70s) had to happen to keep the hyperinflation of the 70s under control, so debt (money) was off-shored, since the US economy by itself couldn't handle the debt anymore.

IMHO, the current problems we are seeing in the States and around the world are tied to this debt problem, so we are getting banana republic laws. Money is debt anymore, completely fiat. Trouble is debt has interest attached to it, so debt goes exponential, and becomes unserviceable. iirc, babylonians had a 7 year decree to cancel debts, since the knew about this problem, likewise in America there is bankruptcy.

Interesting times. I dont think it will be as bad as some people think, but I wouldnt necessarily bet on your pensions being there like you think, or see as many humvee size vehicles on the road.

wow, sorry for the diatribe, having a shit day.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."
— Frank Zappa

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I'myourtarget said:

If he found a streaming site not based in the US, he might be able to use that, as I doubt our government has that much power over other countries' rights. Though if both laws pass, they can check our ISP and find that we are viewing gaming videos, for example. So yeah.

The problem is, if they do make it an offense to even view copyrighted material, they'll most likely pull a China and block-out any sites from another country with different copyrighting laws.

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Technician said:

You know the laws passed will effect every streaming site, right? It's the law, and websites hosting such copyrighted material can be severely punished. No video streaming site will take the chance. And with this faux Child Pornography bill I just posted, it'll forces every ISP to record and make available your download history, including accessing torrent sites and downloading copyrighted files.

Quit being so naive.


Tell you what, I'll start panicing when they actually pass those laws. Hell I'll even start worrying a little bit if they make it through the senate. As it is right now, neither of these bills have gone any further than being introduced.

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I'myourtarget said:

Well if you look at how hard America's trying to fuck up the Internet, with the two bills in consideration right now (that I know of), I'm kind of feeling annoyed with America right now, yes.

All kinds of bills come and go into consideration in all countries all the time. Often it takes only one person in the senate/parliament/what have you to come up with a new law and then it has to go through the whole deal and suddenly it's big news all over the place, even if it's being supported only by a small minority of representatives. Point being, just because a couple of people might come up a shitty idea doesn't mean that it'll certainly get passed.

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Jodwin said:

All kinds of bills come and go into consideration in all countries all the time. Often it takes only one person in the senate/parliament/what have you to come up with a new law and then it has to go through the whole deal and suddenly it's big news all over the place, even if it's being supported only by a small minority of representatives. Point being, just because a couple of people might come up a shitty idea doesn't mean that it'll certainly get passed.


Inb4 the corporations pay them to draft the bill and then turn it down in order to enforce the delusion of freedom

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ISPs will certainly lobby to not have a bill like that passed. As bad as ISPs can be to the consumer, they tend to hate government regulations as any corporation would, particularly ones as bad as this. I mean we ARE talking about the people that took billions of federal dollars to build new fiber infrastructure and sat on it. The ONLY thing the ISPs want is to get rid of net neutrality, that's it.

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Since we're talking about the future of the Internet possibly being in danger, I'm going to throw a wrench in the gears: What about quantum computing? We have successfully made computers (no more powerful than an old pocket calculator) from less than a dozen particles. If this, and the ability to teleport information (which has been successfully performed) takes off in the next 20 or 40 years, the whole fundamental structure of the Internet will change to the point that it may become too powerful for any sort of censorship to take place. That, or it'll become easier than ever!

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"The attack on individual rights has reached the point where a citizen has no right to use his own land if a government inspector discovers a wet area on it, no right to the money in his bank account if an IRS agent decides he might have dodged taxes, and no right to the cash in his wallet if a DEA dog sniffs at his pants. A man’s home is his castle, except if a politician covets the land the house is built on, or if his house is more than fifty years old, or if he has too many relatives living with him, or if he has old cars parked in his driveway, or if he wants to add a porch or deck. Nowadays, a citizen’s use of his own property is presumed illegal until approved by multiple zoning and planning commissions. Government redevelopment officials confiscate large chunks of cities, evicting owners from their homes and giving the land to other private citizens to allow them to reap a windfall profit. Since 1985, federal, state, and local governments have seized the property of over 200,000 Americans under asset forfeiture laws, often with no more evidence of wrongdoing than an unsubstantiated assertion made by an anonymous government informant."

"Americans’ comprehension of liberty and the threats to its survival has declined sharply since the nation’s birth. The Massachusetts colonists rebelled after the British agents received "writs of assistance" that allowed them to search any colonist’s property. Modern Americans submit passively to government sweep searches of buses, schools, and housing projects. Virginia revolted in part because King George imposed a two-pence tax on the sale of a pound of tea; Americans today are complacent while Congress imposes billions of dollars of retroactive taxes - even on people who have already died. Connecticut rebelled in part because the British were undermining the independence of judges; nowadays, federal agencies have the power to act as prosecutor, judge, and jury in suits against private citizens. Maine revolted in part because the British Parliament issued a decree confiscating every white pine tree in the colony; modern Americans are largely complacent when local governments impose almost unlimited restrictions on individuals’ rights to use their own property. The initial battles of the Revolution occurred after British troops tried to seize the colonists’ private weapons; today, residents in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities submit to de facto prohibitions on handgun ownership imposed by the same governments that grossly fail to protect citizens from private violence."

The above from Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty by James Bovard

Have you ever tried to start a small business with all the fines, fees, and restrictions? The government now tells you what you can sell, how much, the price, and who you are allowed to hire.

I've had city inspectors on my property without my knowledge (until the threatening notices came in the mail) and then they tried to force foreclosure with the mortgage holder. For what? Some gawdamn weeds and two cars (they said I was "stacking" cars)!

I'm not allowed to own a gun inspite of the fact that I've never used a gun to commit a crime.

They wiped out an entire neighborhood near me because the government wanted the land. Several people didn't want to sell but were FORCED out. One of these was a friend of mine.

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bytor said:

They wiped out an entire neighborhood near me because the government wanted the land. Several people didn't want to sell but were FORCED out. One of these was a friend of mine.

I thought it was common knowledge the government could do this.

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Well given how much the stock market is crashing over the past couple days our US Dollar may become worthless in the near future.

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GoatLord said:

How bad are we talking? I don't watch the news enough (clearly).

America just went a trillion further in dept today by the stock crash. Gold has went up an alarming seventeen hundred dollars, too.

I thank my lucky stars I pulled out of the stock earlier this year.

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All right, now we're in full crash mode. Thanks S&P. HSI is really taking a beating. It's down over 6%. US pretrading is not fairing well, either.

http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia

Nikkei down 4.43%. I'd ranked yesterday as "not as bad as I thought", but now it's self-compounding. We're utterly fucked.

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Csonicgo said:

All right, now we're in full crash mode. Thanks S&P. HSI is really taking a beating. It's down over 6%. US pretrading is not fairing well, either.

http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia

Nikkei down 4.43%. I'd ranked yesterday as "not as bad as I thought", but now it's self-compounding. We're utterly fucked.


It doesn't look good. Now if maybe some of those massive tax loopholes for the mega-rich & corporations could of been taken care of during the debt ceiling charade, so more taxes are paid to help the budget, this S&P downgrade would of been delayed. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Market is going up this morning. Probably wasn't a crash so much as a readjustment.

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I'myourtarget said:

If he found a streaming site not based in the US, he might be able to use that, as I doubt our government has that much power over other countries' rights.

They don't have to have power over other countries' rights. It's called a firewall and it keeps out anything they don't want in, i.e. foreign sites streaming illegal video. China's having a blast right now in their own little bubble

Market is going up this morning. Probably wasn't a crash so much as a readjustment.

Let's just hope it doesn't start dropping again, though Congress really needs to get its act together

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