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Marnetmar

QUIVER - A new TC for [Eternity?] [Still in Planning Stages, NOTHING is Official]

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This is the thread for a new TC that is still in planning stages, originally intended to be another free version of Doom like Freedoom, but shifted towards a different direction. We have not decided on a theme, or the kind of art direction. Everything I say is only ideas and suggestions and is subject to change.

Here's the idea.

We've all heard of the strange objects people claim to have seen in the sky, the UFOs that take the form of things we could not possibly imagine unless we had seen them ourselves. The objects in the sky that glow, change form, multiply and suddenly dart impossibly fast in all directions before simply disappearing.

People have always theorized about what these objects are and where they come from, some say that they are alien beings from another planet. Others say that they are merely atmospheric phenomenon. But, as human beings, we are often quick to judge and infer causes without thinking deeper. Without considering that the truth may be something beyond what our brains can understand. You are about to see a story of indescribable beings, twisted landscapes and impossible objects manifest before you.


The idea is that, somehow, a door to another dimension known simply as 'the void' has opened. The void is something beyond our comprehension, something that simply cannot be imagined. Some people who enter the void come out screaming in terror, and suffering ultimately because they don't even know/remember what it is that they saw and thus cannot describe what they've been through. The others...well, they simply don't come back.

Because the void cannot (and is not supposed to be) imagined, you never actually get to see the void itself. However, things out of the void manifest as strange, surreal objects that almost require drugs to think of. The void is not supposed to be hellish, but it's supposed to be scary in the way that it messes with you psychologically. As you progress through the game, things from the void manifest more and more, and things begin to look more and more like a bad acid trip.

Monsters from the void can range from flying geometrical shapes to what appear to be actual beings, but twisted in a surreal and terrifying way.

To describe what I'm trying to picture for you guys, I'd recommend watching the following videos:

Early computer graphics
Malice in Wonderland
Suicidemouse.avi

And finally,

The art of Louis Wayne

No, I'm not suggesting a Wad about psychedelic cats or a fake mickey mouse cartoon, I'm just trying to say that this is the kind of disturbing surrealism I'm going for. I had a couple monster ideas, one of them being similar to the thing you see in Malice in Wonderland at 2:30-2:40, except it moves forward instead of back and is completely black except for red eyes.

Another idea I had was simply a floating pyramid with a mouth on each side, it would rotate as it flew through the air and projectiles would come out of the mouths. The pyramid would be about the size of the icon of sin's projectiles.

Well, what do you think?

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One for sure would a unique project name would be needed.

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Mr. Chris said:

One for sure would a unique project name would be needed.


Definitely, I'll add that to the OP.

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I think it's a good idea to multiply the over-ambitious from scratch projects that are still not finished fifteen years after their official start. It seems very promising.

PS: I find that Freedoom's textures are grimier and look more worn than Doom's.

The main problem isn't the textures anyway. It's the sprites. There are just so many of them to make.

As for the name, I suggest Godot.

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Gez said:

I think it's a good idea to multiply the over-ambitious from scratch projects that are still not finished fifteen years after their official start. It seems very promising.


Heh, I think that something to prevent this issue is to be more organized with information and having it not be an ongoing project.

Gez said:

PS: I find that Freedoom's textures are grimier and look more worn than Doom's.

The main problem isn't the textures anyway. It's the sprites. There are just so many of them to make.


Perhaps grimy wasn't the right word...I think that the textures and the sprites both have the same issue of looking too cartoony. That's just my personal opinion though.

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Anything vanilla-related sounds good to me. Probably some of the Freedoom resources could be reused, but there's also Blasphemer which has a darker tone.

I like the idea of a more "run-down" version of Doom. You could even have some areas that are completely ruined and dilapidated, as if they were abandoned for hundreds of years.

One possibility would be to model the Ultimate Doom episodes around the Quake 1 theme of four distinct dimensions. Not necessarily the same exact ones, but enough variation to provide an interesting mix of textures, architecture and level design.

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Heh, I think the main thing to lay down is to make the gameplay itself be as much like the original Doom as possible. Perhaps a bit darker than Doom so it's not like freedoom, but still keeping that fast paced action. I already have a new Doomguy face concept that didn't really seem to fly in the freedoom area, you can find it here

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Something about FreeDoom's "flavor" really bugs me, not sure what it is. Another attempt at a free version of Doom would certainly be nice. I think it needs to look a lot more id-like. As long as the resources are original creations, what does it matter how close they are to the originals?

I'm not so sure that making things look even more worn down is a good idea. I think it's better to try to emulate the original as close as possible. Still, having a darker theme might not be a bad idea, but not more worn down.

Most importantly though, it needs to have a polished feel. FreeDoom just feels sloppy for some reason.

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Sodaholic said:

Something about FreeDoom's "flavor" really bugs me, not sure what it is. Another attempt at a free version of Doom would certainly be nice. I think it needs to look a lot more id-like. As long as the resources are original creations, what does it matter how close they are to the originals?

I'm not so sure that making things look even more worn down is a good idea. I think it's better to try to emulate the original as close as possible. Still, having a darker theme might not be a bad idea, but not more worn down.

Most importantly though, it needs to have a polished feel. FreeDoom just feels sloppy for some reason.

I kind of doubt that FreeDoom would hold up in court as it is, and the similarity to the original game certainly doesn't help inspire the creation of content for it; making a Free project as an even closer emulation would not only be a pointless waste of time for all involved, but also a blatant violation of id's copyright.

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Sodaholic said:

Something about FreeDoom's "flavor" really bugs me, not sure what it is. Another attempt at a free version of Doom would certainly be nice. I think it needs to look a lot more id-like. As long as the resources are original creations, what does it matter how close they are to the originals?

I'm not so sure that making things look even more worn down is a good idea. I think it's better to try to emulate the original as close as possible. Still, having a darker theme might not be a bad idea, but not more worn down.

Most importantly though, it needs to have a polished feel. FreeDoom just feels sloppy for some reason.



Like Essel said, trying to Emulate the original as close as possible isn't a very smart move. The only things I'd try to recreate are the atmosphere and gameplay. Nothing else.

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Marnetmar said:

-Have a nice amount of clever, funny easter eggs
-A darker, more serious style.

Just because I wanted to quote these two lines together. I didn't even need to delete anything in between them.

Marnetmar said:

Heh, I think the main thing to lay down is to make the gameplay itself be as much like the original Doom as possible.

Fun fact: just for kicks, I started playing episode 2 of Ultimate Freedoom. Here's my let's play commentary: "Okay, this is faithful to the original E2M2 theme, maybe too faithful, what with the teleport pad in the angle and oh there's a giant hollow red cross that damages you and hey a blood pool with collapsible bridges and a switch in a wall that raises some little wall with another switch on each side, one of which opens a secret area and how a long corridor with a line of bonus and a teleport at each end and a green marble zone and a dark cramped maze-like thing and fuck is there anything that isn't a blatant copy?"

Plus, what would be the freaking point anyway. Why make another Doom that looks just like Doom and plays just like Doom? There's Doom for that. You want in? Look up DTWID, should be right your alley. Why start up a new project doomed to fail because it will be both overly ambitious (all new resources -- sounds textures sprites music everything from scratch go go go) as well as creatively bankrupt (you gotta make it exactly like Doom except not but still the same). Pointless. You end up with something that demands as much effort as a TC, but doesn't give the content creator the satisfaction of having actually created something of their own.

Shit, make something new. Something different. Something that might not be as fun as the original Doom, but which will at least have the merit of standing on its own. It doesn't need to be radically different. Heretic is different enough. Chex Quest is different enough. Harmony is different enough. Hacx is different enough. How different? Not much, honestly. But different enough to be original creations.

What would be the point of creating some grotesque hybrid between DTWID and Freedoom? That would be just another layer of limestone over a fossilized community.

So yeah, rant over. You want to map for Doom? Map for Doom. You want to work on a different game for the Doom engine? I'm sure Xaser would be happy to have more collaborators for Hacx. Freedoom is also open to newer content with higher quality than what's already in; and Blasphemer could really use some content at all. But please don't start yet another vaporware project that will amount to naught but institutionalized plagiarism and a dearth of ideas.

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Gez said:

Just because I wanted to quote these two lines together. I didn't even need to delete anything in between them.


Fun fact: just for kicks, I started playing episode 2 of Ultimate Freedoom. Here's my let's play commentary: "Okay, this is faithful to the original E2M2 theme, maybe too faithful, what with the teleport pad in the angle and oh there's a giant hollow red cross that damages you and hey a blood pool with collapsible bridges and a switch in a wall that raises some little wall with another switch on each side, one of which opens a secret area and how a long corridor with a line of bonus and a teleport at each end and a green marble zone and a dark cramped maze-like thing and fuck is there anything that isn't a blatant copy?"


I don't mean level design dude, I mean like...actual atmosphere. Levels should not be themed after their original IWAD counterparts. E2M1 should not contain an inverted cross and a two-sided switch, E2M2 should not contain a cratemaze, etc.

Plus, what would be the freaking point anyway. Why make another Doom that looks just like Doom and plays just like Doom? There's Doom for that. You want in? Look up DTWID, should be right your alley. Why start up a new project doomed to fail because it will be both overly ambitious (all new resources -- sounds textures sprites music everything from scratch go go go) as well as creatively bankrupt (you gotta make it exactly like Doom except not but still the same). Pointless. You end up with something that demands as much effort as a TC, but doesn't give the content creator the satisfaction of having actually created something of their own.


Heh, I actually map for DTWID. And for the second time, when you instantly assume I'm trying to say to "make it exactly like Doom except not but still the same" that's not what I meant at all.

Shit, make something new. Something different. Something that might not be as fun as the original Doom, but which will at least have the merit of standing on its own. It doesn't need to be radically different. Heretic is different enough. Chex Quest is different enough. Harmony is different enough. Hacx is different enough. How different? Not much, honestly. But different enough to be original creations.


That was kind of the idea.

What would be the point of creating some grotesque hybrid between DTWID and Freedoom? That would be just another layer of limestone over a fossilized community.


Once again, this is not what I'm trying to say at all.

But please don't start yet another vaporware project that will amount to naught but institutionalized plagiarism and a dearth of ideas.


And how do you magically know that the idea was to rip off music, textures and other content like Freedoom?

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How do I magically know that? Wording.

"another free version of Doom" "as much like the original Doom as possible" "Another attempt at a free version of Doom" "emulate the original as close as possible"

I read all these sentences in a discussion and it engaged rant mode. You presented it, and it was received, as another community-made Doom. Okay, so it's not the level design but the atmosphere that is to be copied. Even that, though, lacks originality.

Now, let's be serious one moment. Here are two projects. Tell me which one is more sensible:

Project A:

  • New maps
  • New music
  • New textures
  • For Doom
Project B:
  • New maps
  • New music
  • New textures
  • New monster sprites
  • New weapon sprites
  • New other sprites
  • New sounds
  • New everything else not already mentioned
As far as gameplay goes, what does B have over A? Nothing. Oh, I suppose you could try to justify B by saying "yeah but we'll use DeHackEd and stuff to make it moar different", but you know what? You can do that in project A too, and you still don't have to replace every single little thing -- nor refrain from replacing them by edits of the originals, which is a lot simpler than creating stuff from scratch.

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Speaking of level theme, why not have the maps based off their names? Phobos Lab being an actual lab, the Hangar a hangar, Central Processing and Computer Station being large computer based levels, etc.

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How about, story and enemy-wise, something other than Hell? Really, Doom, Doom II, FreeDoom, as well as endless rip-offs of Doom and other games are about Hell. Instead, have something different. I'd suggest a Borg-like race but that's already been done with Quake II. Maybe a game set in a dystopian future similar to 1984, with the protagonist seeing through the lies of the government and vows to single-handely take it down? (Hey, it's as plausible as one man taking on all of the forces of Hell)

On another note, a completely different pallete than what Doom has would be nice. That's an easy way to completely change the mood, just see Sigvatr's pallete he made.

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TrueDude said:

On another note, a completely different pallete than what Doom has would be nice. That's an easy way to completely change the mood, just see Sigvatr's pallete he made.

Heck, you can try to revive this. Dark, grimy textures for the masses!

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TrueDude said:

How about, story and enemy-wise, something other than Hell? Really, Doom, Doom II, FreeDoom, as well as endless rip-offs of Doom and other games are about Hell. Instead, have something different. I'd suggest a Borg-like race but that's already been done with Quake II. Maybe a game set in a dystopian future similar to 1984, with the protagonist seeing through the lies of the government and vows to single-handely take it down? (Hey, it's as plausible as one man taking on all of the forces of Hell)

On another note, a completely different pallete than what Doom has would be nice. That's an easy way to completely change the mood, just see Sigvatr's pallete he made.


I'd personally stick with the fire and brimstone.

EDIT:

Or not, what about some kind of spirit world? It could be like a dark, creepy void-like dimension. I really just don't want to take the "OMG ALIENS" approach.

Mr. Chris said:

Speaking of level theme, why not have the maps based off their names? Phobos Lab being an actual lab, the Hangar a hangar, Central Processing and Computer Station being large computer based levels, etc.


That sounds like a good enough idea.

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Gez said:

Heck, you can try to revive this. Dark, grimy textures for the masses!

Oh please someone do, that project was looking amazing.

Marnetmar said:

Or not, what about some kind of spirit world? It could be like a dark, creepy void-like dimension. I really just don't want to take the "OMG ALIENS" approach.

That sounds like a good plan.

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Hmm, sounds interesting. Freedoom isn't exactly my cup of tea as it is, indeed, a bit cartoony (though I haven't seen the latest version yet). I like the idea of a spirit world. Perhaps another dimension (Quake anyone? The Myst?). I wouldn't mind something that is dark and gritty, atmospheric. And no, no aliens. That feels like there's a fighting chance. At least something super natural (Hell, another dimension, etc) which can give the feeling that there's no chance to win, humanity may be on its last legs.

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Gez said:

Heck, you can try to revive this. Dark, grimy textures for the masses!


It looks interesting, but sounds like he doesn't want those used in community projects.

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On top, the level design could use a little bit of Tom Hall inspiration since he strove to have Doom's levels more on the realistic side instead of abstract.

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I'm just throwing this idea out there, but how about an episode 5 for doom? It would be a small project then, but it would be some fun.

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Rambosee said:

I'm just throwing this idea out there, but how about an episode 5 for doom? It would be a small project then, but it would be some fun.

You just completely missed the point of the thread. It's about making a project that in entirety won't be anything like doom generally.

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alterworldruler said:

You just completely missed the point of the thread. It's about making a project that in entirety won't be anything like doom generally.

Actually, it's about making a project that is everything like Doom... for some reason. :-\

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IMO would be better to just make a set of maps, why build everything from scratch if your going for a similar experience?

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Speaking as one of the founders of the Blasphemer project, who's learned about these things the hard way, NAY. It may sound fun at first, but eventually it's going to not be, and you realize that you're just spending effort on re-making a game for free that someone already made and got paid for when you could be putting that effort to making your own new game instead, with an engine that's easier to work with than Doom's with all its peculiarities, and without the legal grey area that doing these clone-off reskin projects entails.

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Why not create a completly new game, with no relation to doom, like Harmony?

Lorenzo

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It sounds like marnetmar wants to creat a classic doom episode with new textures, well you don't need to create a whole new game to do that.

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