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spartacusuvw

Why does every WAD seem to copy Doom II Level 7?

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Just playing through AV now, and to my shock (sarcasm) its level 7 is a copy of Doom II Level 7. I've noticed this on the majority of megawads that I've played. So my question is: why do so many mappers feel the need to do this rather than create an original map? Level 7 variants get boring after a while.

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http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Tag_666
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Tag_667

Pretty much that. A unique tag action exclusive to that map in vanilla Doom 2. The fact that they're limited to Mancubi and Arachnotrons limits creativity, but any straight clones of MAP07 are probably because the mapper liked the original map more than a lack of creativity. Even Doom 64 had a MAP07 clone.

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a project I'm working on will have an Icon of Sin on the MAP07 slot.

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Exactly. Why not make original IoS level but earlier, on map 07 and instead of using spawn shooter, use these predefined manubi/arachotron enemies and build entire IoS from these moving floors when enemies dying. It should be done to show player (of course by different textured parts of it revealed) that boss is wasted in waves and change it's look and shape.

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Memento Mori 1 & 2 MAP07 is original. I kinda wish I made my MAP07 levels more original. I think Interdiction Zone and Mephisto's Maosoleum are my favorite maps making good use of the MAP07 tag.

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I thought that there was something that kept the Icon of Sin from working on any level but map30...

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GBT3 said:

Exactly. Why not make original IoS level but earlier, on map 07 and instead of using spawn shooter, use these predefined manubi/arachotron enemies and build entire IoS from these moving floors when enemies dying. It should be done to show player (of course by different textured parts of it revealed) that boss is wasted in waves and change it's look and shape.


One potential issue with this is that the IOS's cubes don't telefrag anything other than on Map30; meaning you often end up with a load of monsters stuck on eachother around the cube landing areas.

Another issue is that the IOS spawns Macubus and Arachnotron it'self. This means the spawn spots bascially always have to be accessible to the player. If the IOS spawns a Mancubus in an area of the map the player can't reach before he's killed all the original Mancubus, he's stuck.

Also, the 666 and 667 tags may end up activating more than once; the IOS spawns a Mancubus after the originals are all dead, the 666 tag will activate again once the new Mancubus is killed.

Not to say one can't have an IOS on Map07 and use the 666 and 667 tags (I don't actually think it's been done, even for a simple arena), but there are lot's of things and limits to be wary of.

Naturally, various ports can do away with some or all of the above limits, but then you might as well not bother with the 666 and 667 tags in the first place.

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The special tags work only on these maps, and if you're making 32 maps, it seems reasonable to have a map that makes use of them. After all, you're creating a great variety of maps, so why not have one where monster deaths trigger something?

It's wrong to view any map that uses the special tags as a "map07 clone". If you think that's the case, then either you haven't played many megawads, or you're seeing only the minor technical feature the maps have in common and ignoring the much more major differences. For instance, is Icarus map07 a Dead Simple clone? It uses these tags, but to someone unaware of what triggers what, the map would seem utterly dissimilar to Doom2 map07.

Of course, you can have monster deaths trigger something by transferring the Keendeath codepointer to another monster via dehacked. But that can confuse players (who won't be expecting it on other map numbers and for other monsters) and requires that the port accepts dehacked patches or that the player loads a deh patch. And you need to be careful that the codepointer doesn't cause some other map to malfucntion, as dehacked changes apply across all maps, not just ones where you actually want the effect to occur.

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I did a DeHackEd mockup thing that changed the Icon of Sin to have the keendeath parameter so that killing it opens a door revealing the rest of the level instead of just ending it right there.

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Ohhhhhh, I hate those map07/map30 variations. They almost always suck. ( "Mixed" maps like SoD map07 do not count. )

In my opinion, the last map of every megawad should be either very big (like in eternall) or very hard (scythe 1 & 2). Otherwise, there is no sense of accomplishment.

The only good Icon of Sin map is ks30.

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MAP07 has alot is a very memetic level, it introduces 2 new important enemies, it works well as a DM level and it's simple, Dead Simple.

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^Dang, you know I had an idea for a MAP07 where the 667 platform is actually a lift that continually raises up via the Icon of Sin spitting out an arachnotron every now and then. Then eventually the lift would be high enough to terminate the Icon of Sin. It would basically be a sort of slaughter map style.

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I have to amdit I've gotten quite bored of them myself now. One of my main reasons for mapping primarily for ZDoom is so that I'm not stuck with those cliches and can instead have interesting behaviour on any map I like. If it needs explaining, I can do that with a message or something in the map too, so it's all good!

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Personally, I've wondered why ID didn't make more use of 666/667 tag effects.

It's actually a bit strange that it was only used on Map07 and 32.

I mean, they could have used the tag on Map11 where the player battles the first Arch Vile of the game, or on Map20 with the Cyber Demon and Spider Demon, or the Cyber Demon on Map29 etc etc.

I suppose I'm wondering why Map07 was the only "boss like" map/battle in the game other than the final map. Or if they were only going to have the one mid game boss map/battle, why it wasn't nearer the middle of the game, rather than on Map07.

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Agree with Vermil.

However, I think I saw one who was working on TNT 2 MAP07. Instead of adding an arena of fight, he made it a Mancubi hunt. You will search for 4 of them, killing them is the key of exit.

Have you checked Doom II Unleashed MAP07? Sure it is nicely detailed, but no offense, I think it is the worst map I played, because it is MAP07 with added rooms.

Why did they make Keen's death an exclusive flag while they made the Mancubi and Arachnotrons flagged as a boss death. They managed to create better code (which is A_KeenDie or whatever it is), but they didn't use it....... This reminds me of my Confusing things in Doom thread.

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My map 7 for earth base makes use of the tags, but it plays like a regular medium-sized map, with the tags being used for things such as "disarming missiles".

Also, I really liked the final level of the 1monster megawad. Its a good way to make a final boss map without using the icon of sin.

40oz said:

I did a DeHackEd mockup thing that changed the Icon of Sin to have the keendeath parameter so that killing it opens a door revealing the rest of the level instead of just ending it right there.


Interesting, but how do you get around removing the monster spawner? With this set up I would imagine monsters would keep coming in even after the romero head is killed. Unless you're killing the spawner itself or something, which TBH I haven't checked and don't know if its possible.

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I'm interested if this is possible too. My MAP20 of progfic has a monster spawner and I've not found a solution for disabling it without also ending the level. My "solution" was to just open up an exit for the player to use while the monsters keep spawning but it would be more elegant for the spawning to cease.

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Use3D said:

I thought that there was something that kept the Icon of Sin from working on any level but map30...

It'll work, but monsters won't be able to telefrag. I suppose as a result it might be possible for spawn-cube-derived monsters to get stuck helplessly inside each other.

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C30N9 said:
Why did they make Keen's death an exclusive flag while they made the Mancubi and Arachnotrons flagged as a boss death. They managed to create better code (which is A_KeenDie or whatever it is), but they didn't use it.......

Your question equates to "why didn't they make better code for us custom mappers?" They weren't coding for us, though, so we need to attempt to gauge their point of view to really answer the question.

Perhaps they liked using "666" because it was amusing, didn't want more than one or eventually two special tags to keep track of during development, and hard coded most of them to avoid any possible or eventual conflicts. Maybe Keen is generic because they didn't know exactly what level it was for and maybe at that point, possibly during late development, they didn't think there could be any 666 tag conflicts with it.

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The WAD I'm working on has a boss level where you have an open area with a few pillars, a bunch of Mancubi, and a gigantic circular pillar in the middle. Once the Mancubi are dead, the pillar lowers to reveal the actual boss of the level.

Does that count?

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-_DLD_- said:

The WAD I'm working on has a boss level where you have an open area with a few pillars, a bunch of Mancubi, and a gigantic circular pillar in the middle. Once the Mancubi are dead, the pillar lowers to reveal the actual boss of the level.


This is sort of how things work in db's map7, the mancs are off in the void, since you don't encounter them until episode2. Activating a series of switches crushes them and in return releases the boss. A cool idea. :)

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Grazza said:

It's wrong to view any map that uses the special tags as a "map07 clone". If you think that's the case, then either you haven't played many megawads, or you're seeing only the minor technical feature the maps have in common and ignoring the much more major differences. For instance, is Icarus map07 a Dead Simple clone? It uses these tags, but to someone unaware of what triggers what, the map would seem utterly dissimilar to Doom2 map07.


I think he just means all the big-square-arena-type map 07's that don't bother trying to be original...and I agree there, it's just lazy.

(even I used tag 666 in my map 07's, but purely because it was there)

Icon of sin maps are a bit trickier to make, but again there's still plenty of ways to make it more original...from making the boss room more interesting/challenging to using the shooter/spawner in different ways altogether. The best one I've come across was a slaughter map that started with the icon waking up as soon as you entered the main cave (with 1400 mobs still to go)...now that's an "oh shit" moment. (I believe it was Shaitan's Luck)

Foodles said:

The same reason why most megawads have an icon of sin as the final boss, its tradition


Although my tradition seemed to be having it on map 29 :p

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40oz said:

I did a DeHackEd mockup thing that changed the Icon of Sin to have the keendeath parameter so that killing it opens a door revealing the rest of the level instead of just ending it right there.


You need to make a secret level where you fight an Icon of Sin in a big arena. Killing it opens up an area where you fight two Icons of Sin. And it keeps doubling up from there until the player finds out that they can just leave the level by returning to the entrance at any time.

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lupinx-Kassman said:

Interesting, but how do you get around removing the monster spawner? With this set up I would imagine monsters would keep coming in even after the romero head is killed. Unless you're killing the spawner itself or something, which TBH I haven't checked and don't know if its possible.


Oh yeah i forgot to mention that I made the demon spawner shootable and have it some health. Unfortunately at times it was possible to kill the demon spawner without killing the romero head, and vice versa. I haven't yet really thought of a way to make killing one of two kill the other simultaneously. The head has to be positioned in a way so that the explosions appear in front of the IoS's face, and the demon spawner needs to be positioned where it has a clean shot at the spawn locations.

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