Why does every WAD seem to copy Doom II Level 7?

[C30N9]

40oz said:

Oh yeah i forgot to mention that I made the demon spawner shootable and have it some health. Unfortunately at times it was possible to kill the demon spawner without killing the romero head, and vice versa. I haven't yet really thought of a way to make killing one of two kill the other simultaneously. The head has to be positioned in a way so that the explosions appear in front of the IoS's face, and the demon spawner needs to be positioned where it has a clean shot at the spawn locations.

I think putting the monster spawners in a hole deeply enough so it is unreachable by projectiles and make it/them rise by sound. At Keen's death a door will open, releasing a voodoo activating crushers over those.

[Guest]

valkiriforce said:

^Dang, you know I had an idea for a MAP07 where the 667 platform is actually a lift that continually raises up via the Icon of Sin spitting out an arachnotron every now and then. Then eventually the lift would be high enough to terminate the Icon of Sin. It would basically be a sort of slaughter map style.

I like this idea.


Make it so.

[DeathevokatioN]

As someone who really enjoys shooting monsters and likes arena styled gameplay, I have no problems with Map07 remakes at all.

[The_MártonJános]

Reusing them tags 666 and 667 have never been my moody activity, but I did use them to hide secrets in the soon-released Hadephobia MAP07.

[myk]

To me, not using the tags in vanilla or Boom is generally a waste, as you have the opportunity to not use them in every other level in the set, and if you don't use them in MAP07, you don't use them at all. Conversely, in ports with scripting and level behavior alteration, the tags aren't any different form any other alterations authors may make through these means, so they become much more pointless. The same goes for the final boss (excluding "Boom+" in MBF and PrBoom/+ where you can allow it to work without the monsters getting glued in any level).

In short, this question is influenced by the specs you're designing for: The 666/667 trigger question without considering this key difference is confusing.

The Ultimate DooMer said:
I think he just means all the big-square-arena-type map 07's that don't bother trying to be original...and I agree there, it's just lazy.

Perhaps, although this still opens the question about which, if any, are original among these. Many maps that still use a squarish layout that relies mainly on mancubi and spiders still have various innovations that may be considered creative. For example, Heroes Tales' level 7 uses lifts for the mancubi, gives less cover against them, deploys a greater number of arachnotrons, has a moat around the central square and monsters appear in the outer area, making it different from and harder than the original but also being evidently a Dead Simple offshoot in more than just the use of the tags. There are various cases where "Dead Simple alterations" work out to be fun, in my opinion.

[purpleyoshi13]

Master Levels For Doom II had 3 Map 07 replacements.

Bloodsea.WAD Featured A 666 tag but is a switch on a nearby wall close to the tag.

Mephisto.WAD Featured A 666 tag but is a walk-over line that lowers 4 corners, Also Featured The Icon Of Sin.

Nessus.WAD Did NOT! Feature A 666 or 667 tag.

[Katamori]

"Why does every WAD seem to copy Doom II Level 7?"

1. Tradition.
2. It gives more variety to the WAD

Consequence ->
3. What's the problem with this?

[Horus]

Katamori said:

"Why does every WAD seem to copy Doom II Level 7?"

1. Tradition.
2. It gives more variety to the WAD

Consequence ->
3. What's the problem with this?

1. Tradition =/= always good
2. It gives each WAD less variety when compared to each other. If I want to play map 7, I'll load up Doom II and go to Dead Simple.

[Snakes]

I made a Map07 outside of the traditional mold as I wanted to use tag 666 in a different way than usual. Perhaps it's fate or something, but I wound disliking that map a good deal later on (for various reasons).

[The_MártonJános]

Tradition is good, but...

1. MAP07 clones still shouldn't be some self-repeating boring memes, featuring Mancubi and Arachnotrons all over and over.
2. If they somehow don't do so, these 2 are still circumscribed for only parts of the level (take HR2 par exemple), making it less fun and variable to play. Mancubus and Arachnotron infighting have always been my favorites, lacking them and facing only either dumb Barons/HKs or sore-ass Revenants is snass.

So, all you in this thread should watch your M's and mind your A's.

[purpleyoshi13]

Cell said:

So, all you in this thread should watch your M's and mind your A's.

watch my Mind and mind my Ass?

Thanks, I'll think about it.

[myk]

Cell said:
Mancubus and Arachnotron infighting have always been my favorites, lacking them and facing only either dumb Barons/HKs or sore-ass Revenants is snass.

I'd say Dead Simple and other similar maps divide them precisely to avoid making the two monsters too easy through infighting, forcing the player to be responsible for opening the walls or raising the platform through their demise. These are two high damage monsters that can really weaken each other. Not that I have a problem with infighting between them, but arachnotrons are mostly better at it due to their constant fire, so it's not that great. That changes only in fast mode, where the tide is turned. Barons or revenants are rather interesting against arachnotrons because of their quick and powerful hand-to-hand attacks, so that the result often depends on whether they get close to the spiders. It's similar with mancubi, although both very short and very long distances can be beneficial against them. Cacodemons are at a loss but they often avoid a good deal of the plasma from arachnotrons by being pushed aside when being hit, damaging their mostly static opponents a bit more than if they were on the ground.

In any case, infighting between arachnotrons or mancubi against anything is already not traditional Dead Simple stuff. Although you do of course tend to have some infighting between them when playing with monster respawning enabled.

[Hellbent]

spartacusuvw said:

Just playing through AV now, and to my shock (sarcasm) its level 7 is a copy of Doom II Level 7. I've noticed this on the majority of megawads that I've played. So my question is: why do so many mappers feel the need to do this rather than create an original map? Level 7 variants get boring after a while.

I've always wondered this, too.

[The_MártonJános]

myk said:

In any case, infighting between arachnotrons or mancubi against anything is already not traditional Dead Simple stuff. Although you do of course tend to have some infighting between them when playing with monster respawning enabled.

I see that you partially misunderstood my post. I was talking about their infightings en général, not only amongst them two.

[Xaser]

I've seen some neat variations on the traditional theme -- PRCP MAP07 in particular places a macubus/arachnotron (can't remember which ATM) in a teleport closet and places a cyberdemon on a platform directly on top of the teleport destination, meaning you have to kill the cybie before the manc/arach spawns. Bit of a neat use of the trigger to force a different type of boss fight.