Let's Finish Community Chest 4

Hello Doomworld!

Last night I questioned my recent apathy for the project, reasoning that it's not been going on all that long, so why the problem?


The problem is that I'm wrong. It's been going on for over 3 years. Considering that the original intention was that 32 people only had to make 1 map (and since then some of us have made 2) 3 years is an incredibly long time. Yes we've had issues with leadership and management (particularly at the start with Death Destiny) but the key problem is mappers. We've probably had 2 megawads of maps started, and about 25 of those are now finished I think. In three years.

The Green Herring has been incredibly patient and hard working trying to get this done, and at least 5 maps have been finished since 2008. There's some incredible maps by people such as Dutch Devil, pcorf, Nebula-Kristian, Adam Windsor, Andy Leaver and more just languishing on a variety of hard drives, not getting the recognition and attention they deserve because of so many people just sitting on the maps slots for months at a time with nothing to show for it.


Well now we have an open submission system (and have done for something like half a year), where we have somewhere around 4 map slots to fill. We've got a lovely great big texture resource - even I've managed to make a good looking area or two out of the textures there, they're really that good - and a solid team of playtesters just begging for somebody to finish a map.

I propose something of a race. Everybody who's ever wanted to make a map for a community project (you know, get their name in the credits alongside their favourite mapper or whatever), this is the definitive, so go and sign up and start mapping. It doesn't have to be your magnum opus, or evren all that big. We just want 4 good, playable maps from this community. First people to get their maps in will be accepted (although if you've made a rushed, sloppy map, the playtesters will tell you all about it). Maps are Boom compatible (I just use vanilla format myself), you can't use transfer skies (as that's not Boom) and you're just contributing a map (of any theme you like) with a MIDI - no custom monsters or anything. There's a more comprehensive list of rules in CC4 forum if you're worried. We need 1 map to fit MAP01-11 (which has a grey, cloudy sky) I think, and 3 for MAP12-MAP20(which use a blue starscape). Maps will be shifted around in order according to difficulty IIRC, so don't worry too much about a specific slot.

Don't make me have to submit a third map! This is 2011: Year of the Megawad afterall, so go on, get to work :P

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Phobus said:
There's some incredible maps by people such as Dutch Devil, pcorf, Nebula-Kristian, Adam Windsor, Andy Leaver

Really? AWESOME!

I'll try to participate, but I'm absolutely sure that I'll abandon my map. :P

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If the pace remains slow, I'd be willing to finish and submit a second map within the next few months. I've been working on some Boom-compatible levels for another project of mine, one of which I already considered repurposing for CC4 anyway. Hopefully enough people will pull through, and it won't come to that, though.

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Let's take a quick look at the sign-up list and see what we got already ( sorry if I'm forgetting those who're working on maps that aren't completed yet ) :

Episode 1
---------
Completed maps :
-Polluted Paths by Stewboy
-Three is a Charm by Phobus
-Inner Fear by Dutch Devil
-Installation Decrepit by Alice Jameson ( this one may need some touching-up imho, thing placement-wise )
-Survival Instincts by Adam Windsor
-Hoedown by Phobus
-Ochregerde by [WH]
-The Grotto by Christoph / Joshy
-Renewed Faith by [WH]
-Cold Reception by Mithran Denizen

10 / 11
Need 1 map

( Very ) close to completion as far as I know :
-Mr Freeze's map 07 ( if this one's done, ep 1 is full - and I know that there's only minor edits to do on this one )
-Jimmy & Mechadon's Suburbia ( may go to ep 2 if Mr Freeze's map is submitted )
-The Falls of Doom by Processingcontrol ( may go to ep 2 if Mr Freeze's map is submitted )

See, episode 1 is done ( provided Mr. Freeze spends like two hours on his map 07 ), and 2 maps can go to episode 2. Let's move on to said episode 2 :


Episode 2
---------
Completed maps :
-Glaber Base 6 by Glaber Twin ( this one may need some touching-up imho )
-Metastasize by Andy Leaver
-Technoprison by Joshy
-Decomposition by Lord Z
-Interstellar Sickness by lupinx-Kassman

5 / 9
Need 4 maps

( Very ) close to completion as far as I know :
-Temple of Verdance by Pottus
-

Here, with the two maps from episode 1 ( Jimmy & Mechadon + Processingcontrol ), it means only 1 more map is needed.
I know that TGH is working on his map and that Lupinx-Kassman's second map is in an advanced state as well, so it shouldn't take that long for episode 2.

Episode 3
---------
Completed maps :
-Detachment by Shadow Dweller
-Reaper's Digest by Nebula-Kristian
-Crucifix Held Close by [WH]
-Vulcana II by Paul Corfiatis
-Nightmare Complex by Torn
-Hell's Limits by C30N9
-Ragnarok by Joshy
-Mortar Combat by Stewboy
-Mutare by Jeffrey Nordin

9 / 12
Need 3 maps

( Very ) close to completion as far as I know :
-Expect the Unexpected by The Ultimate DooMer ( only minor touch-ups are needed here, see feedback from testers )
-Spiritual Holocaust by Christian Lian
-Demon Research by Processingcontrol
-Deepholm by Keeper of Jericho

Here, the 3 maps we need for completing episode 3, plus one more map that could move to episode 2 if needed. The wad is done already...
Again, sorry for dissing out the other mappers whose work isn't advanced yet, I'm just considering numbers here.

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What making this project slow is the desire of the mappers to create huge long maps with perfection. Then they start complaining from work, seriously if everyone tried to make an 8-11 minutes map, this would have been done so fast. Even I made a map for this, I'm not interested in it. Because from map threads I can tell they are really long maps. Seriously, why most modern maps are long? They make the megawad boring in my eyes.

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My E1 map can be finished in under 30 seconds, if that makes you happy. :P

It still took me over a month to make it, though.

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Mithran Denizen said:

My E1 map can be finished in under 30 seconds, if that makes you happy. :P


That makes me sad :P, that's really low.

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Phobus said:

you can't use transfer skies (as that's not Boom)


Oh? So I need to remove that, then ;P Oh? So I need to remove that, then ;P But why is it even an option when choosing Boom format if its not for Boom?



Well, not contributing much to this thread, but my map is like...99% finished. I wish more playtesters would give some feedback, but I too are fed up with the waiting and stalling of this project, so I`m not gonna wait for any more testing feedback, and just go with what the ones that have given feedback already have pointed out.

Also, I think more activity in the project/CC4-forums will spark some motivation in people. I know it would in me ;)

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darkreaver said:

so I`m not gonna wait for any more testing feedback, and just go with what the ones that have given feedback already have pointed out.


DO IT JUST AS I DID! :P

You're not asked to create perfect-like map, all you need is a good map.

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I have a detailed map to E2, but I can't continue it, so I gave it to Processingcontrol. I hope he will be able to finish it in time.

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darkreaver said:

Oh? So I need to remove that, then ;P Oh? So I need to remove that, then ;P But why is it even an option when choosing Boom format if its not for Boom?


Apparantly that's something of a flaw with DoomBuilders configurations. Actual Boom doesn't have that, but almost every Boom compatable port does. Confusing, but there you are!


C30N9 has hit the nail on the head, I think. I don't know why everybody wants to attempt to make the biggest map they can for these things, but they really shouldn't. They should make a solid, fun map that people will enjoy playing. Those can be any size :P

Any updates or fairly-finished maps current participants have should really just be submitted once you've had one or two testers get back to you. We'll have a full-megawad testing phase at the end afterall and that'll catch anything the testers miss now.

@[WH]-Wilou84: Thanks for posting that listing, although I think it's a little out-of-date, as Keeper of Jericho has finished his map.


By the way, anybody who's got a map they could repurpose or just submit (there's nowhere saying you HAVE to use the texture set afterall) to the project that hasn't already been released would be very welcome too, as that'd be even quicker :)

Also, don't wait to see if anybody finishes their map before submitting - just get in there. Anything leftoever can be released individually, afterall :)

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Phobus said:

@[WH]-Wilou84: Thanks for posting that listing, although I think it's a little out-of-date, as Keeper of Jericho has finished his map.


It's indeed done and the first testing reports are coming in (thanks [WH]-Wilou84!). Aside from the touch-ups based on the testers' reports, my map's finished. I know it's whoever comes first gets the spot, and since I have not yet submitted my map my spot is technically still open, but I would really feel awful if somebody ran away with my spot now because they managed to build their map and get it tested faster than me... Not trying to be dramatic or anything, but I would like to see my map in the project after all the work I did on it.

But I do support the wake-up call for CC4, Phobus. =) I've been waiting since 2009 for this project to play it, since I loved the previous three ones. Hope this means we can get a 2011 release done.

When will CC5 start? =p

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I have a map that I started making last year that's about 75% done. It's kinda big and I think would fit in one of these community wads. It's a cavern/castle/beach thing that leads to my dm map in the last 32in24 dm wad (map30). I just gotta make one more area and then add monsters/playtest. I could be done in a month I'd say.

If there end up being more than 32 maps, will the extras get added?

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Keeper of Jericho said:

It's indeed done and the first testing reports are coming in (thanks [WH]-Wilou84!). Aside from the touch-ups based on the testers' reports, my map's finished. I know it's whoever comes first gets the spot, and since I have not yet submitted my map my spot is technically still open, but I would really feel awful if somebody ran away with my spot now because they managed to build their map and get it tested faster than me... Not trying to be dramatic or anything, but I would like to see my map in the project after all the work I did on it.


Send a version to TGH now or as soon as you've got through implementing the current feedback, and then update it if the testers give you anything good to change. That's what I did :)

But I do support the wake-up call for CC4, Phobus. =) I've been waiting since 2009 for this project to play it, since I loved the previous three ones. Hope this means we can get a 2011 release done.


I certainly hope so too! Another major megawad this year would be great.

@eternal slumber: Sounds good to me - go ahead, sign up and make a thread in the CC4 forum to make sure you've got your foot in the door and drum up some interest :) As for the >32 map issue - It's first-come-first-served I believe and TGH has stated before he won't go over 32 maps. Any maps leftover can either be released individually (with a mention that the CC4 texture set may be necessary) or saved for some other project at the author's discretion.

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I agree with this idea that it should be finished. Doom's 18th birthday would be a challenging but good deadline, at least for having all maps submitted.

As a playtester I know there's some great maps in here, regardless of size. :) I've played 8 1/2 of the 10 submissions in the first episode and feel all are fit to be included in the final product so far.

Analyzing things, there's currently 10+5+9=24 maps considered to be for sure in the final release, although even without playtesting I believe one of these (Glaber Base 6) should be dropped. Still, that leaves only 9 maps left to fill (since it would be 23 completed). I know of at least two levels that are all but ready for submission and should easily be accepted. That makes 7 left. There's another map that's been finished but I haven't tested for fitness yet. If it goes then there will only be 6 slots left to fill. Three maps have been submitted and are in the testing wad but have not been officially accepted yet. Assuming at least two of them get accepted in not too long (I haven't tested any of the three so I want to be a bit conservative and say one may end up rejected), that would be 5 maps remaining. If Mr. Freeze finishes and submits his map, it's likely down to 4. Dutch Devil making another map would have it down to 3. Jimmy91 says he has a map so that's only 2 left now. Same with eternal slumber which would mean only 1 more map is needed. And Mithran Denizen and Memfis have both also said they may make another map, so that actually puts us one over the requirement. I know if any of this doesn't follow through then valkiriforce or C30N9 in particular can cook up a map or two quickly. So I'm not sure there's enough time in 2011 for final compilation (I can't estimate too well how long that phase will take), but I agree that having all 32 maps in the wad by the end of the year is a fair goal that can be met.

@Phobus - Your second map Hoedown is what I'm currently playing in my testing and I like it better than Three is a Charm (which you can leave as is given it got a good reception from testers in general plus I didn't think it was bad anyways) but I do have one suggested change so far for that map. Could I submit it to you (i.e. are you willing to consider making a change still if it sounds good to you)?

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MegaDoomer said:

I know if any of this doesn't follow through then valkiriforce or C30N9 in particular can cook up a map or two quickly.


I guess I'm good with making another one. It would be easier I think, since I'll pass the Testers' block. Though the detail done by me isn't super awesome as much as Boom maps.

But the problem is laziness. In fact, I have much free time, but using the free time in mapping is a problem. I still didn't finish MAP25 from Interception! And I'm pretty sure some of you who work would wish getting this free time.

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Heh, I remember Community Chest 4 was the first time I mapped for the Doomworld community. I made two big maps full of 94-isms, and so I was butchered with some very well-deserved critique. It helped me to open my eyes to what the community is about, and especially when I first started playing megawads like Memento Mori, Icarus, etc. I began to better understand what it means to make a good map. Good times...

Also, Adam Windsor? Holy cow, that's awesome. I think I'll take my comments about him to another thread...

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C30N9 said:

What making this project slow is the desire of the mappers to create huge long maps with perfection. Then they start complaining from work, seriously if everyone tried to make an 8-11 minutes map, this would have been done so fast. Even I made a map for this, I'm not interested in it. Because from map threads I can tell they are really long maps. Seriously, why most modern maps are long? They make the megawad boring in my eyes.

This. A thousand times this. I'm going to admit right now that the only reason two of the levels "undergoing evaluation" are still there, having yet to be evaluated, is because of how gargantuan they are. Seriously, this is getting a bit ridiculous. My level (my third attempt at one, really) is intended to be small and short, and I was going to make a thread about it when I was done with it to show that you didn't have to make such huge maps. Unfortunately, I'm at a bit of a mapper's block at the moment, which has been intermittent since last year. In the interest of not keeping my level in a bubble and hopefully jump-starting myself, I may or may not send the level to testers this week. The combat is unfinished, but you can at least finish the level even if it's just with IDDQD or IDFA.

As leader of the project, I endorse this thread. Hell, part of the delays may be due to people not even noticing the project forum exists...

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eternal slumber said:

I have a map that I started making last year that's about 75% done. It's kinda big and I think would fit in one of these community wads. It's a cavern/castle/beach thing that leads to my dm map in the last 32in24 dm wad (map30). I just gotta make one more area and then add monsters/playtest. I could be done in a month I'd say.

If there end up being more than 32 maps, will the extras get added?


Hey ToD, if you do end up participating in CC4 and if your map happens to be defanged during testing to make it through, could you save the original version (that is, whatever version you yourself would have considered final if it was just a regular map outside of a project) and release it as a standalone?

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The problem with it for me was that I knew it was ongoing but there wasn't an easy (read: obvious) way of telling if there were any mapslots open and if so the likelihood of a map I made getting into the WAD.

I third the long-map phobia too. Keep 'em short, neat and sweet!

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For anyone who wants to start a new map, I have a vanilla map starter, it could help. Hellish theme.

I don't know about Marnetmar, but maybe he is going fine with "Slaughterhouse", since he is not an employee like me. I hope... -_-

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MegaDoomer said:

@Phobus - Your second map Hoedown is what I'm currently playing in my testing and I like it better than Three is a Charm (which you can leave as is given it got a good reception from testers in general plus I didn't think it was bad anyways) but I do have one suggested change so far for that map. Could I submit it to you (i.e. are you willing to consider making a change still if it sounds good to you)?


I'm going to guess it's about the Automap room, which has been a frequent point of contention. I'd rather leave that as is. PM me your feedback at the end of your testing in any case though, you may have something that nobody else has thought of.

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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
( Very ) close to completion as far as I know :
-Mr Freeze's map 07 ( if this one's done, ep 1 is full - and I know that there's only minor edits to do on this one )
-Jimmy & Mechadon's Suburbia ( may go to ep 2 if Mr Freeze's map is submitted )
-The Falls of Doom by Processingcontrol ( may go to ep 2 if Mr Freeze's map is submitted )

See, episode 1 is done ( provided Mr. Freeze spends like two hours on his map 07 ), and 2 maps can go to episode 2. Let's move on to said episode 2 :
[/B]


My E1 map would probably be screwed up with the E2 sky, and its too easy for an E2 level anyways.

C30N9 said:

What making this project slow is the desire of the mappers to create huge long maps with perfection. Then they start complaining from work, seriously if everyone tried to make an 8-11 minutes map, this would have been done so fast. Even I made a map for this, I'm not interested in it. Because from map threads I can tell they are really long maps. Seriously, why most modern maps are long? They make the megawad boring in my eyes.


Heh, that fits the description of my first map perfectly. :p


Anyone want to continue the E2 map Katamori gave me? I think I might take a long time to finish it and have done very little since I got it.

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Phml - yeah, for sure. I posted it in the CC4 forum, but if it gets axed I'll release it on its own.

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Phobus said:

I'm going to guess it's about the Automap room, which has been a frequent point of contention. I'd rather leave that as is. PM me your feedback at the end of your testing in any case though, you may have something that nobody else has thought of.


No it's not about that. I might as well just say what it is. It's about the room past the yellow key you can drop down into with the rockets and the switch that opens the door behind you at the start (thus leading back to the start). Since this switch also triggers a big fight, I think this switch should be necessary to complete the level. As is if you don't drop into the room with the rockets you can simply avoid the fight.

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That's fine with me as it is to be honest - the player misses the fight, but he also misses out on a lot of rockets and bullets as a result. Could be a potential speed running route in fact!

You are the first person to have mentioned that though, so I'm impressed with how thorough you are.

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Phobus said:

That's fine with me as it is to be honest - the player misses the fight, but he also misses out on a lot of rockets and bullets as a result. Could be a potential speed running route in fact!

You are the first person to have mentioned that though, so I'm impressed with how thorough you are.


That's okay then.

BTW I actually found a very tiny bug/opportunity to get stuck in Adam Windsor's map, that apparently nobody else must have found, and let TGH know about it.

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