Things about Doom you just found out

[Dear Hoplite]

3 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Why would you try to shoot a Cybie with a mere pistol?

 

I had 200% health and shields and thought 400 rounds would do the trick

 

I was horribly wrong

[seed]

49 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Why would you try to shoot a Cybie with a mere pistol?

 

For the same reason some people punch them. Because they can :v .

[Dragonfly]

1 hour ago, Pegleg said:

I was rather impressed that the original designers, without the benefit of auto alignment features in their tools, were often able to align the textures so they looked rather seamless, or at least, not odd.

 

You and me both! Back then it was very much a mathematical process, with much, much less visual aid and instantaneous feedback. I think as mappers our standards have only rocketed as high as they have because the tools we have now are equally high standard https://doomwiki.org/wiki/DoomEd.

 

I still somewhat want this functionality in GZDoom Builder though, heh: "New textures could be created from patches from within the editor."

[Teder]

I quote myself, cause no one share my thought.

Do you hear this too?

 

@Dragonfly I always think about how building QUAKE games was hard. In QUAKE engine you can see only non lighted brushes but you can light them in very good ways.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Teder

[Moustachio]

3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 

You guys must have lazer eyesight to notice ones like this, holy balls. The examples where STARTAN panels are clearly being cut off halfway and whatnot are one thing - I get those, but noticing the grain in the grey textures not wrapping 100% properly?! You guys would hate to look around in my maps if this kind of thing is a bother!

 

I actually do this kind of thing on purpose because, after a while, I can start seeing the pattern in the grain texture, and it bothers me. It looks way more natural to me to vary the alignments.

[Dragonfly]

At least you can visualise your maps in 3D with the base mapping tools, right? :P

[Teder]

7 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

At least you can visualise your maps in 3D with the base mapping tools, right? :P

True :)

[Pegleg]

5 hours ago, Teder said:

I always think about how building QUAKE games was hard. In QUAKE engine you can see only non lighted brushes but you can light them in very good ways.

 

I've never made maps for Quake. I thought about it back in 1998, but was reading about the process of creating polygons inside polygons inside polygons and just said, forget it, I'll stick with Doom and 2.5D.

 

But I remember reading that items (like torches) were originally multiple components that were eventually combined into a single one that you could light because they realized that it would be super easy to forget one of those components and then have something that either didn't work or didn't work correctly. So, it could've been worse.

[kb1]

16 hours ago, Edward850 said:

That's damage. Damage is random near-everywhere in Doom, and thus not a unique attribute to BFG tracers. His post does not stand as is.

It's also highly unlikely that's what he noticed about them. When people don't know how the BFG works, the first thing they notice is the nonsensical behavior of where the tracers emit from (confusing some people to even think it's an explosion), not its apparent damage output.

The amount of damage caused collectively by each trace effectively makes each shot unique (read "random"), and defines a unique profile for the attack. I totally understood and agree with what he posted.

 

You seem like a reasonably smart guy. If you want people to know it, I suggest avoiding the urge to pick apart people's posts, and instead post something interesting. You can get everything you want out of life without hurting people.

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, kb1 said:

You seem like a reasonably smart guy. If you want people to know it, I suggest avoiding the urge to pick apart people's posts, and instead post something interesting.

I already did that, complete with download link so people can confirm said interesting thing actually exists. Now you show me yours.

[kb1]

7 hours ago, Edward850 said:

I already did that, complete with download link so people can confirm said interesting thing actually exists. Now you show me yours.

Right, you show me a link to code that many people have seen many times... code that proves that referring to the BFG with the term "random" is quite natural and understandable, and makes sense, proving my point...which is interesting. Thanks.

 

What would you like to see? (I'm a bit shy...)

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, kb1 said:

Right, you show me a link to code that many people have seen many times... code that proves that referring to the BFG with the term "random" is quite natural and understandable, and makes sense, proving my point...which is interesting. Thanks.

That is not what I linked to in the post you quoted, and thus your post has come off as remarkably nonsensical.

You said you wanted something interesting, and you couldn't even be bothered to click the link when I posted it. Well gee, and you complain that I'm not nice to you, I wonder why? :/

 

(Also of course I posted the source code, it doesn't matter if you personally already know how it works, the point was to show DrPengin how it works, who had obviously not seen it before.)

Edited August 23, 2018 by Edward850

[Cacodemon345]

3 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

That is not what I linked to in the post you quoted, and thus your post has come off as remarkably nonsensical.

What you have linked is just the split screen branch that is nothing of kb1's interest. He expected you to link to the BFG tracer code.

[Edward850]

5 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

What you have linked is just the split screen branch that is nothing of kb1's interest. He expected you to link to the BFG tracer code.

He said he wanted something interesting. I have no idea what he personally finds interesting, so I went with what other people find interesting.

[Jon]

Here's something I don't find particulaly interesting: you two dick waving at each other, on top of all the misalignment bullshit for the last two or three pages. This used to be one of the most interesting regular threads on the forum, let's please not bury it beyond recovery.

[kb1]

15 hours ago, Edward850 said:

That is not what I linked to in the post you quoted, and thus your post has come off as remarkably nonsensical.

You said you wanted something interesting, and you couldn't even be bothered to click the link when I posted it. Well gee, and you complain that I'm not nice to you, I wonder why? :/

 

(Also of course I posted the source code, it doesn't matter if you personally already know how it works, the point was to show DrPengin how it works, who had obviously not seen it before.)

You're right - I was referring to the first link. I just clicked the second link, and, yes, it's interesting.

I never claimed you weren't nice to me, just that some of your posts weren't nice in general. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that you may not have realized this, so I gave you some advice. Maybe you were simply being informative, and if that is the case, I am truly sorry. But I have noticed this tone multiple times - is that not something you would want to know? How often do you get an honest review and assessment?

 

@JonGood enough. I was probably wrong anyway.

[Test Tickle]

There's this random wall outside of the map in MAP30 of Doom 2.

[Space Marinara]

On 22 August 2018 at 9:46 PM, Doomkid said:

 

You guys must have lazer eyesight to notice ones like this, holy balls. The examples where STARTAN panels are clearly being cut off halfway and whatnot are one thing - I get those, but noticing the grain in the grey textures not wrapping 100% properly?! You guys would hate to look around in my maps if this kind of thing is a bother!

I reconstructed the HUD status bar graphic from that texture recently and it's way all over the place. No-one seems to mind about that either?

[Dragonfly]

All these "complevel 9" maps that make use of the Sky Transfer special are actually complevel 11. :P

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/MBF

[Chainie]

In Pre-beta you can go through lowered ceilings.

 

 

[Pegleg]

16 hours ago, pc234 said:

<PICTURE>

There's this random wall outside of the map in MAP30 of Doom 2.

 

I remember seeing that back in the 90's when I opened up Map30 in an editor. I think my exact thought was something like, "What the heck is that? It must be there for a reason."

 

So I did exactly what you did and no-clipped over to look at it. Nope. It's just a random wall with a different texture than any of the others in the level.

 

It's almost like Sandy was going to do something more with the level, so he added a room, then changed his mind and deleted it, but missed that one wall.

[seed]

Should that be the case I wonder what else he had in mind.

[Kore]

Remember that tool that showed the order the linedefs were placed? What was it called again? It could solve the mystery.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

That linedef is linedef 55 and it's attached to sector 11.

That means it was drawn before the central lift from which you fire the rockets, after the first of the "stairs" lifts, but before the top two and the switch alcove and before the starting room.

It's possible that this linedef and sector were intended to be a starting area or an expansion of the arena.

This raises another question, though: given how close it is to the primary arena, what exactly would it be?

Also note that the western wall isn't aligned at a right angle multiple, which I've never noticed before now.

Also, while looking at this map, I found that the chamber holding the BossBrain actor was drawn before the box connecting it to the arena proper.

The starting area was also made last.

 

[seed]

Starting area last? Interesting.

 

My guess is, maybe it was the original starting area in the early iterations of the map. What else could've been inside it? I dunno, maybe just some enemies to fight and some items.

 

Perhaps their original plan didn't work in practice.

[Dragonfly]

3 hours ago, Kore said:

Remember that tool that showed the order the linedefs were placed? What was it called again? It could solve the mystery.

 

Dmvis - Doom Map VISualiser

[SilverIce]

Only recently noticed this misaligned texture in Evilution MAP29.

 

[Pegleg]

 

On 8/25/2018 at 1:59 PM, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

It's possible that this linedef and sector were intended to be a starting area or an expansion of the arena.

This raises another question, though: given how close it is to the primary arena, what exactly would it be?

 

Since it's next to the sector you start on, it's possible that it was intended to be the starting area. Or it was the teleport location where you landed after stepping on the teleport pad in the starting room. Perhaps after they added the words the IoS says to you, it was decided that you should arrive in the final arena facing the IoS, which would have removed the need for the location off to the side.

 

On 8/25/2018 at 1:59 PM, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Also note that the western wall isn't aligned at a right angle multiple, which I've never noticed before now.

 

That should make the "symmetry is evil" folks happy.

 

It doesn't seem to make a difference in the game itself. I wonder if it was just an accident or if having that slight angle removed some sort of slime trail or something.

 

Quote

Also, while looking at this map, I found that the chamber holding the BossBrain actor was drawn before the box connecting it to the arena proper.

 

That's interesting, I would've thought it would have been the other way around, so as to avoid a problem with differing sector heights. But I guess that's an easy enough problem to fix. Perhaps the original bridging sector between the BossBrain and the arena was different and Petersen or someone else just didn't like it for some reason.

 

Quote

The starting area was also made last.

 

That's not too shocking to me. The starting area is just a box full of weapons. You can do a bit of work to make it look interesting, but the crux of the level is the fight in the main arena. So, it makes sense to me that Petersen focused his time and effort on making the final arena. The starting area could very well have been added as almost an afterthought or, as Agent6 said, the original plan may not have worked during testing. Or as I speculated earlier, perhaps they had planned on you coming in off to the side, but after adding the voice, it was decided that you should arrive in the middle with the IoS staring at you, necessitating the starting area be created.

[kb1]

The analysis you all have done with map 30 here is awesome and very interesting. It's very cool to be able to go into the original designers minds, just a little bit, and wonder what they were thinking at the time. Who knows, maybe that first Doom editor was weird and clumsy to use, and maybe that contributed to one or two of these quirks. However, the order of placement is fascinating...but could be deceptive. A few linedefs are, of course, sensitive to placement order. But the one tricky thing could be deletes.

 

There are lots of ways programs handle deletes. Some shift everything immediately, to fill in the gaps of deleted things. Others simply mark the deleted items as "deleted", and leave them there, that way, until save. Yet others mark the deleted items as "deleted", and new items fill in the gaps as they are built.

 

I have no idea how id's editor handles deletes, and I have no idea if deletes even happened here. I just mention it as something to consider - something that could confuse a discussion about placement order. My guess is that the analysis you all provided is spot on, and deletes have nothing to do with it. It's just something to consider, that's all.

[KVELLER]

I just found out that many of ZDoom's features are actually from Hexen.