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Sigvatr

Things about Doom you just found out

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While I am far more than liable to be proven otherwise, but I believe this scenery in Plutonia MAP10 I suddenly became aware of during a recent replay might be qualified an entry on the unwritten list of "Plutonia doppelgängers" (i.e. MAP21 <-- Doom II MAP11, MAP18 <-- Doom II MAP14, etc.), unless it haven't yet:

E3M4Homage.png.9060837c582f908181b22bccd17950fb.png
For me, it seems like a smaller, less fleshy and/or bloody version of the so-called "E3M4 torture chambers".

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Just found out something interesting, apparently if you're standing on pain sector and an enemy is attacking continuously at you, when you die on that sector, that enemy will keep firing and "hurting" the player even if it's dead already:

 

DOOM0001.png.cf695b262d379feb2bf6bc0bc1d80871.png

(Absolutely Killed, E1M6)

 

Excuse the red screen but the spider just didn't want to stop shooting, she wanted to destroy my spirit too. What I don't know is what does exactly kill me first, if bullets or lava. Quick demonstration here: killed_e1m6proof.zip, wad is Absolutely Killed E1M6. And if someone knows about this phenomenon and cares to explain, I'll be very glad to learn.

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The chaingun spider probably doesn't call A_CPosRefire or A_SpidRefire in its attack state, which are used to tell the monster when to stop firing.

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10 hours ago, InsanityBringer said:

The chaingun spider probably doesn't call A_CPosRefire or A_SpidRefire in its attack state, which are used to tell the monster when to stop firing.

 

Sure, but @galileo31dos01 mentioned how the spider kept "hurting" them after dying (hence the red screen). There's something else going on here.

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ah, in this case, it's voodoo doll fuckery. part of that particular encounter, if you back up enough, causes a crusher to come down and crush a voodoo doll. That voodoo doll dies before the spiderdemon kills the body your controlling, causing the oddities.

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A quote from Myk in 2010, exactly one day before I joined the forum:

 

On 1/28/2010 at 9:40 AM, myk said:

In the original game, all 8th levels have less sound attenuation. This didn't survive into source ports because Paul Radek's sound code was excluded from the source release due to copyright reasons. Chocolate Doom reincorporated the phenomenon, as it aims to closely imitate the DOS executable.

 

Some off-map monster batteries I have made for a certain E4M8 are teeming with bad guys, and their mosh pit moans can be heard all over the map in Chocolate Doom. Knowing that sound terminates at around 1200 units I was confused and went digging into the past for answers. This interesting find appears to be the culprit.

 

I wonder how far out I'd have to push the batteries to get those barons and cacodemons to shut the hell up.

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That piece of code is there to make the boss monster audible no matter where you are. I think this tweak makes the most sense on e2m8, where there's a high chance you will wakup up the cyber by first attacking the lost souls and the boss will be far away. On the other maps it isn't all that important. It got carried over into Doom 2, so map08 has that slightly different audio model as well. The game just checks if it's map 8, regardless of what episode, and Doom 2 has one episode internally.

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The enemies seem to have an autoaiming system like that of the player. You see, I was playing a map and encountered a Spider Mastermind, which of course wanted to turn me into swiss cheese, so I quickly took cover behind a tall pillar that had a Baron at its top. Lo and behold, the Baron got hit and they started infighting!

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28 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

The enemies seem to have an autoaiming system like that of the player. You see, I was playing a map and encountered a Spider Mastermind, which of course wanted to turn me into swiss cheese, so I quickly took cover behind a tall pillar that had a Baron at its top. Lo and behold, the Baron got hit and they started infighting!

Yeah, you can direct them like that. The AI movement system is almost like Pac-Man - run map 30 in IDDQD mode while watching the automap, for about 30 minutes, then noclip around the outside of the map, and watch the monsters follow you around without being able to see you! They're like ants!

 

And, yeah they have no qualms about trying to shoot you "through" other monsters, which gets the party started!

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10 hours ago, kb1 said:

Yeah, you can direct them like that. The AI movement system is almost like Pac-Man - run map 30 in IDDQD mode while watching the automap, for about 30 minutes, then noclip around the outside of the map, and watch the monsters follow you around without being able to see you! They're like ants!

 

And, yeah they have no qualms about trying to shoot you "through" other monsters, which gets the party started!

 

Yeah, but what I'm getting at is that this Baron was pretty high up, while the spider was at the same Z-coordinates as me. It aimed up for no apparent reason.

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11 hours ago, KVELLER said:

 

Yeah, but what I'm getting at is that this Baron was pretty high up, while the spider was at the same Z-coordinates as me. It aimed up for no apparent reason.

Maybe it had already been hit by the baron, so it was retaliating?

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2 hours ago, kb1 said:

Maybe it had already been hit by the baron, so it was retaliating?

 

Nope, not at all. I literally triple-checked to make sure.

 

It was in one of the maps in Ultimate Doom the Way id Did, can't remember which one exactly but it was the first appearance of a SM.

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3 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

can't remember which one exactly but it was the first appearance of a SM.

E3M8: Dis.

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E4M4, possibly.

 

I've noticed this, too, but only with hitscan enemies, never projectile throwers. I've seen a particular situation in which a Mastermind attempted to infight a baron above it, but it seemed to be too close to the wall, and all of its shots landed straight ahead, as if the Mastermind needed to use autoaim to hit the target.

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In Doom e1m4 is a four-door room with blue keycard. One time i ran out of that room just in that moment when doors were closing, that door opened back and got stuck. I watched for couple minutes - that door didn't close. It got fixed when i activated all doors again.

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There is a bug in Doom with targeting that occurs when a monster and its target are a different heights. I've been on a ledge watching imps below on a platform try to shoot me, and the missiles end up always hitting the wall below me, over and over again. I haven't researched the cause. Might be the inaccurate sine/cosine/tan tables, the fixed-point math, or an honest-to-goodness bug. It's probably a consequence of adding a small offset to the missile's Z-coordinate each tic, causing a compound round-off error.

 

That's my guess. But I don't think that solves your issue. From what you describe, my money is on the spider targeting the baron out of retaliation. @KVELLER I know you say you checked, and I believe you: But, how did you check, exactly? You'd have to debug the game, and check the Spider's .target field at the proper game tic, to know for sure. If this isn't the opening room of the level, can you say for sure that the baron (or something behind him) didn't hit the spider? Why else would the spider fire up there, if you were down below? It doesn't make sense - that just doesn't happen in Doom, as far as I've seen.

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yeah. hitscan attacks all use `Aim` call to calculate a direction. for monsters it has slightly smaller range than for player, but otherwise it is the same. so you can use some monsters as meatshields even if you aren't perfectly hidden behind them.

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On mardi 4 décembre 2018 at 4:18 AM, KVELLER said:

The enemies seem to have an autoaiming system like that of the player. You see, I was playing a map and encountered a Spider Mastermind, which of course wanted to turn me into swiss cheese, so I quickly took cover behind a tall pillar that had a Baron at its top. Lo and behold, the Baron got hit and they started infighting!

Yeah, all hitscans work that way. That's one of the cases where Doom is truly 2.5D: the monster aim at you, then the game runs a 2D trace in the monster-you line to see what is in the way, and then the trace's slope is computed from the vertical position of the first thing met.

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3 hours ago, kb1 said:

@KVELLERThere is a bug in Doom with targeting that occurs when a monster and its target are a different heights. I've been on a ledge watching imps below on a platform try to shoot me, and the missiles end up always hitting the wall below me, over and over again.

Just saw two video examples of this bug a couple weeks ago, it's funny just how easy it is to reproduce it.

 

 

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Has anyone ever made a WAD exploiting this with Cyberdemons? I wonder if you could have a map where a bunch of Cyberdemons made a field of death with you ensconced safely at the center of it so long as you don't dare to move.

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35 minutes ago, Linguica said:

Has anyone ever made a WAD exploiting this with Cyberdemons? I wonder if you could have a map where a bunch of Cyberdemons made a field of death with you ensconced safely at the center of it so long as you don't dare to move.

 

That sounds cool, though I bet explosion radius on the rockets would make that pretty tricky.

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