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Sigvatr

Things about Doom you just found out

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You can even make items that cycle through various sprites so what you get depends on your timing for picking it up.

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I didn't realize the author of E4M7 (John Anderson) also designed several Master Levels, which puts E4M7 into a different perspective IMO. It definitely has Master Levels-like aesthetics to it. The staircases in the interior part of the map look pretty similar to the stairs in Virgil, the slime tunnels at the end of the level remind me a bit of Minos, and the room with the Cyberdemon fight resembles the Cyberdemon fight room in Vesperas (where you have the bars that get raised up and can block rockets), all of which are Anderson-designed maps. Obviously the map isn't as complicated as the Master Levels, otherwise the map most likely would not have been added to Ultimate Doom. Also, it has several optional areas to explore like some of the Master Levels (you only need the Red Key to beat E4M7, not all three in the map).

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It's worth noting that all of Dr. Sleep's levels were part of what was envisioned as a 9-level episode replacement, themed after various cantos of the Divine Comedy. All of his Master Level contributions and E4M7 come from this series.

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just found out last night that for a monster to move forward in a tight monster closet (0mu space at the sides), at least 8mu of space is required in front of the monster. the monster would remain immobilised even if space of 4mu is allocated in front and at the back of the monster (for a total of 8mu of space parallel to direction of movement). tested in [gzdoom 4.10] and [prboom-plus 26um]. was experimenting with fast teleportation of monsters.

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3 hours ago, rita remton said:

just found out last night that for a monster to move forward in a tight monster closet (0mu space at the sides), at least 8mu of space is required in front of the monster. the monster would remain immobilised even if space of 4mu is allocated in front and at the back of the monster (for a total of 8mu of space parallel to direction of movement). tested in [gzdoom 4.10] and [prboom-plus 26um]. was experimenting with fast teleportation of monsters.

It's actually dependent on the monster. Each monster has a movement "speed" which is amount of units to move per movement call. They cannot move less than this speed, so they must always have at least that much space in any direction to not be considered stuck.

 

Archviles are noted to not be able to turn in some wideish hallways because of this (as turning 180 degrees is only done as the last possible action).

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2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

It's actually dependent on the monster. Each monster has a movement "speed" which is amount of units to move per movement call. They cannot move less than this speed, so they must always have at least that much space in any direction to not be considered stuck.

 

Archviles are noted to not be able to turn in some wideish hallways because of this (as turning 180 degrees is only done as the last possible action).

 

interesting! definitely going to read up on doom monsters' movement speeds. thanks for this vital info! :)

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On 5/15/2023 at 6:20 PM, thiccyosh said:

I found out that vanilla pickup items are not bound by their internal slot, but rather by their sprites. Which means you can give every pickup item a different sprite as long as it uses a valid name.

 

Example: The ammo clip uses CLIPA0 as its name, if we now import a custom sprite and enter CLIPB0 as its name, and give it a slot and set the "Can be picked up" flag inside dehacked, you now have two ammo clips. One uses the vanilla sprite and the other uses your custom sprite, both will give you 10 bullets and behave the same. You can apply this trick onto any thing. Yes, you can now pick up Imps if you're into that. Or Barons. Or Mancubi or Spider Mommas, I don't judge.

 

I am now getting myself ready to be bombarded by comments saying how foolish I am for not knowing this trick already exists and was used in Magnolia. You can all pull your smarty pants back up you nerds.

Is this how the rotating item pickups work in Knee Deep in Knee Deep in ZDoom?

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47 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Is this how the rotating item pickups work in Knee Deep in Knee Deep in ZDoom?

 

Since it haven't played it yet (shame on me I know :P) I can only guess what you mean.

 

The number at the end of every sprite describes the direction of the rotation. A0 in CLIPA0 only says to the game that this sprite has no rotation, so the sprite will always face you. If you look at other sprites with rotation they use different numbers, an Imp has sprites with rotation. So A1 in TROOA1 says it's the first frame (A) with rotation 1 (facing at you. Or to be more accurate looking straight), that means the A2A8 in TROOA2A8 means it's the first frame (A) but diagonally facing you (2 and 8). This goes until A5, which is the Imp facing away from you. Then it starts from the second frame (B), so TROOB1 is the second frame that looks straight and so on.

 

What I have described is using a custom sprite, but now I am saying it is the second frame of the bullet clip, which of course it doesn't have one since it's just one state, but Doom doesn't care really as long the name is valid. And now we gave it a slot so we can actually place it down in a map editor. Which is CLIPB0 in my example, it's the second frame (B) of the clip and it has no rotation (0). Now we go inside the wad and name our custom sprite CLIPB0.

 

 

In case I wrote a clusterfuck of technical spells, which will summon a Cyber at worst and will anger the living encyclopedias of Doomworld.com, let me explain it like this as best I can:

 

 

Knee Deep in Knee Deep in ZDoom added rotations to the bullet clip sprite. Which of course will still behave like a bullet clip.

 

While in my example I turned an existing thing into a clip and named the custom sprite inside the wad CLIPB0 and ticked the "Can be picked up" flag. It has no rotations but behaves like a normal bullet clip when picked up.

 

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I just realized E3M5 and MAP19 have very similar layouts. The content is mainly on the edges of the building, which has a big courtyard in the center.

E3M5_map.png

MAP19_map.png

Edited by Kwisior

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Yes, and can we also appreciate that the most western room in E3M5 is the same shape as the opening room in E2M9?

And that all three maps suck?

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On 5/19/2023 at 7:19 AM, Kwisior said:

The content is mainly on the edges of the building, which has a big courtyard in the center.

Oh man, wait till you find out what The Courtyard looks like.

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7 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Yes, and can we also appreciate that the most western room in E3M5 is the same shape as the opening room in E2M9?

And that all three maps suck?

They're an acquired taste.

5 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

Oh man, wait till you find out what The Courtyard looks like.

The Courtyard is a different story, as it's not a part of a bigger building.

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Doom E4M6:

 

You can pick up the Red Key by bumping into the wall on the other side of the key (in the room with the Red and Yellow bars that need to be lowered). I was just playing episode 4 and noticed that the Red Key was missing when I worked my way through the hallway to get to it and noticed it was in my inventory, so I figured I must've bumped into it somehow. Even if you wall bump the Red Key, you still need to walk up onto the ledge it was sitting on to be able to progress the level, as that's what opens up the final area with the Cyberdemon and the exit. I guess the one perk of getting the key early is that you can press the switch to lower the Red Bars in the level, which will give you access to a BFG and an Invincibility Sphere.

 

 

e4m6redkey.png

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About a month or two ago, I realized that vanilla Doom doesn't save chat messages during the whole demo. It's really unfortunate, since I discovered it after I recorded a deathmatch demo for my latest level and now it makes the demo look like we were just awkwardly standing there, while we were actually messaging each other in-game. 

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On 5/15/2023 at 12:20 PM, thiccyosh said:

I found out that vanilla pickup items are not bound by their internal slot, but rather by their sprites. Which means you can give every pickup item a different sprite as long as it uses a valid name.

 

Example: The ammo clip uses CLIPA0 as its name, if we now import a custom sprite and enter CLIPB0 as its name, and give it a slot and set the "Can be picked up" flag inside dehacked, you now have two ammo clips. One uses the vanilla sprite and the other uses your custom sprite, both will give you 10 bullets and behave the same. You can apply this trick onto any thing. Yes, you can now pick up Imps if you're into that. Or Barons. Or Mancubi or Spider Mommas, I don't judge.

 

I am now getting myself ready to be bombarded by comments saying how foolish I am for not knowing this trick already exists and was used in Magnolia. You can all pull your smarty pants back up you nerds.

This gives me an idea for a mod where your only form of defense/offense is to pick up enemies and throw them at other enemies. Perhaps you'd have to render them vulnerable with a stun gun, at which point they can be collected and used as lobbable objects? (Lobjects)

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8 hours ago, MissArgent said:

This gives me an idea for a mod where your only form of defense/offense is to pick up enemies and throw them at other enemies.

 

Kind of like how Brutal Doom lets you pick up Zombies and Imps when you grab a Berserk? Yeah I could see this work in Vanilla or Boom.

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THE SPIDER MASTERMIND HAS ARMS!?! what the hell, i just noticed it in a video after 29 years

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This, and who would have thought reading old manuals would do any good...

 

 

Doesn't make much sense today honestly, but I would have tried E1M1 in a cubicle like dark compartment with giant TV screens for 3 walls (and a small monochrome screen for automap).

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I played Doom 1.1 with 3 screens at my dad's job in I think march of 1994. That experience may very well have sowed the seed that decades later has resulted in me working professionally in AR and VR for over 10 years by now. Thanks Carmack! (I've actually thanked him for this in person.)

 

Here's a more explanatory video about this feature:

 

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Just came this in my mind that where do Cyberdemon keep all those rockets? Like it can fire rockets as many times as possible until death but ever imagined where it keep all those rockets? The same question can go for Doomguy himself, the Spider Mastermind or Revenants or any other monster that shoots, where do they pack such amount of ammo?

Edited by Yousuf Anik

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I saw the most impressive ragdoll physics vs environment interaction the other day on Doom 2016:

 

I'm in a large arena in the VEGA Complex with the forcefield to VEGA's CPU still active, and I fight a pinky demon and kill it against the forcefield, against which it lays slumped until the forcefield deactivates, whereby the pinky's corpse falls forward to the ground! I didn't expect to see that kind of advanced interaction at all, obviously the forcefield is not just a visual effect, but a physical barrier that works against ragdolls as well as the player, and when the game removes it because the arena is cleared, the physics engine takes account of the now-missing barrier to animate the pinky ragdoll. Impressive!

 

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Doom 64's map design is often more detailed than PC Doom/Doom II, at times feeling like a evolutionary middle step between Doom and Quake. I own diskette releases of Doom/Doom II, my childhood 64, and a flashcart, so it's honestly remarkable in hindsight that I slept on it for so long.

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2 hours ago, MissArgent said:

Doom 64's map design is often more detailed than PC Doom/Doom II, at times feeling like a evolutionary middle step between Doom and Quake. I own diskette releases of Doom/Doom II, my childhood 64, and a flashcart, so it's honestly remarkable in hindsight that I slept on it for so long.

 

It was frowned on at the time because it used a legacy engine on a new console where everyone was expecting full true 3d and polygons... like Turok. I loved it as did some upon release, but many going after the N64 with all of its SGI-powered 3d glory either skipped it or were too offset by it's static viewpoint and sprite usage.

 

It wasn't until years later the masses accepted it was really damn good and the final "classic" format of an official DOOM that we'd see (despite some overhauls to graphics and audio).

 

As you said, it was the missing link between Doom and Quake that eventually became the design and visual focus of DOOM's thereafter.

 

 

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Turok (at least the first game) had to make too many tradeoffs IMO. It looked decent for its time with all the outdoor environments and cool guns, but aged like milk due to the meandering emptiness of it. Aside from the bosses the combat was pretty dull (though satisfyingly violent, and as a kid that was enough) and you needed to memorize routes anyway to make any progress so none of the short range ambushes were really a surprise. The only times you really had interesting combat was when you were lost and stuff respawned. Even then you'd hardly ever see more than a couple enemies at a time. Imagine a game giving you a rocket launcher but you never see groups of enemies to use it on.

 

Then there's the sheer amount of fog; I know it got a PC port eventually, but the N64 version had practically no draw distance at all and looking back now it's pretty blatant compared to Mario 64, OOT and Banjo (which all did a better job hiding it) for example. But yeah it used polygons for almost everything which was respectable for its day, particularly on console. Cool game if you like exploration with zero handholding, and it did have good atmosphere and looked great in screenshots in gaming magazines for an N64 game.

 

Spoiler

For anyone wishing a 3D Metroid game came out on the N64, be glad it didn't because it'd be a lot like Turok. Super Metroid and Prime are both such towering masterpieces it'd be shameful to have a bastard middle child just for the sake of jumping into 3D.

 

Doom 3 made people appreciate Doom 64 more than anything IMO (although not right away). I don't think anyone was all that hyped about 64 at the time since it released after Quake (and a million other shooters) came out. And for N64 Goldeneye was clearly the king of shooters by a lot. The N64 even got Quake and Hexen ports which kind of flooded the whole console market. While having a bunch of well executed and new content, it didn't really catch eyeballs with all the competition.

 

So Doom 64 was a bit of a relic by that point despite playing pretty well and having a lot of merit, being well within the reach of the N64 hardware. The trouble was that PC gamers had more full 3D shooters than they could handle as the genre arguably entered its golden age. For Doom fans, why the hell would you buy a console to play Doom 64 when you can play Half Life or Quake or Unreal or dozens of other great games on your PC?

 

By the time Doom 3 came out and was so divisive among the fanbase people became a bit less distracted by graphics and newness since things began to level off a bit compared to the late 90s. Those who adhered to the classic gameplay began to discover and tout Doom 64 as a hidden gem. Personally I'd mainly heard positivity around it in the last 7-8 years within this community as well as retro gamers in general, and no more than middling and dismissive reviews at the time of launch. I don't mean Doom 64 had a renaissance immediately in 2004, but it gave people new appreciation for the classic style and what made the series great in retrospect. 

 

I think if Doom 3 were more of a universal hit the way the first 2 games were, 64 would never have gotten a second look. But Doom 3 was screwed by the hype and sheer competition (I mean sheesh, 2004 alone was freaking loaded and there were heaps of masterpieces from '00-'03 as well) to never rise to the level of its predecessors. In spite of being quite a feat of game development and very cutting edge for the time, as well as a commercial success, it didn't stand out in the same way despite being hugely promoted. It will be remembered more as a failure (perhaps unfairly) because the originals were all time greats that dominated PC gaming. It's unfortunate since Doom 3 had to live up to great expectations while also being different and innovative, while 64 only had to stick to the formula and lie in wait to be rediscovered.

 

But as for the "masses", I don't think they give a shit about Doom 64 just as they didn't back then. It's gaining new appreciation from classic Doom fans such as they are today. In the 90s the series was a huge phenomenon but the masses moved on. Among the classic fans though it helped that more of them were able to finally play it or at least catch streams or videos once the PC port came out. Being console exclusive kind of segregated the market in those days but lately all the fans of classic Doom are better able to be exposed to all the available games and are much easier to win over on 64's quirks than the general public.

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I know the thread's a week old, but this thread taught me that classic DoomGuy can literally go from standing still to 60 miles an hour in under 3.5 seconds. He's like an electric-powered sports car.

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This isn't something I currently know, and it's probably not the most interesting question but it's something I often think about and am curious to find out. I know that the source code was released for the Linux version of Doom and not the DOS version, but what explains the absence of DOS Doom's almost green hue to the grey colors in every source port? It's a small detail I guess, but is one of the few reasons I often prefer using vanilla Doom over other ports. It just adds a certain amount of je ne sais quoi that makes DOS Doom so addictive.

VABDRjy.gif

Edited by Lippeth

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