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MegaDoomer

Very hard maps without high monster densities

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Inspired by posts on BloodyAcid's "Extremely Hard Maps" thread and also by the recent skepland.wad, I'm looking for maps that are very or extremely hard (on UV at least) WITHOUT being jam-packed with monsters.

I'd say for small levels, no more than 50-75 or so monsters, for medium-sized levels a cap around 100-125, and for large levels a cap close to 200 (300 for huge). Those are just general guidelines though; any level you can think of that fits my criteria in your view would be appreciated as a suggestion.

EDIT: As a guideline, so far the best examples that have been mentioned of the type of map(s) I'm looking for would be Scythe 2 Map29 and Chord NG (in addition to my own mention of skepland).

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Maps 26 and 29 of Scythe 2 are very tricky, especially if you don't know them well.

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Memfis said:

Maps 26 and 29 of Scythe 2 are very tricky, especially if you don't know them well.


Already played those, but boy do I remember Map29 and I agree with you completely!

I remember thinking...second last level...really low monster count compared to the surrounding maps...soft and tense music = something must be wrong here! And indeed I was right. This was only playing on HMP to boot.

I actually had a harder time with that level than I did with Map30.

Anyways I've already played Scythe (2), AV, Hell Revealed (2), the Plutonia trilogy (Plutonia + PL2 + PRCP), Speed of Doom, etc. so I'm looking for a bit less common stuff that still has good quality in other aspects throughout as well. But that map (in addition to skepland) is definitely an example of the overall type of "spirit" I'm looking for.

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dew said:

slayer, belial's sp1, ggmork's bbb, sigvatr's cesspool, timeofdeath's bump


I'm not generally a fan of ToD/Eternal Slumber so please exclude those unless you think they're really good. (at least 4/5 material in your opinion; see below for general quality thresholds)

Already played Slayer way back in like 2003. I'm pretty sure that was packed with monsters anyways. Awesome set, just not what I'm looking for here.

OTOH I'll have to give sp1, bbb, and/or cesspool a chance. Do they stay true to relatively modest monster counts and contain quality in other departments as well? I'm looking only for stuff that would likely be at least 3.5 star material when considering overall map quality. Not referring to the /idgames ratings, I'm just requesting that your personal opinion (basically, the suggestor's opinion) should not be less than that.

EDIT: bbb only gives me a map by Eternal, that is a slaughtermap (Belial's Bad Brain). Can you point a link to the bbb you're referring to?

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sp1 is a speedmap, so it's not very pretty, but it's very hard because of precisely dosed ammo and close quarter ssg battles. bbb is a tiny arena with almost no room to dodge the monsters that teleport in, it plays like a very advanced training wad. bump is a puzzle wad based on movement rather than fighting. all keep monster count very low.

EDIT: couldn't find gggmork's bbb anywhere, so i took the liberty to reupload it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?m8e9fddci6ntm0g

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dew said:

sp1 is a speedmap, so it's not very pretty, but it's very hard because of precisely dosed ammo and close quarter ssg battles. bbb is a tiny arena with almost no room to dodge the monsters that teleport in, it plays like a very advanced training wad. bump is a puzzle wad based on movement rather than fighting. all keep monster count very low.


Need a link to bbb, it won't come up in my /idgames search. Also how does cesspool get it's challenge; that was not covered?

Also please be sure to read my overall map quality thresholds I posted two posts above this.

(I'm currently at work. That's why I can't actually look at any of the maps just yet.)

EDIT: Thanks dew for bbb reupload.

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Would Vela Pax count as slaughter, because I played through a good portion of the first map and it never got too slaughter-y despite having 1000+ monsters. I don't know about the second or third maps though.

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MegaDoomer said:

I'm looking only for stuff that would likely be at least 3.5 star material when considering overall map quality. Not referring to the /idgames ratings, I'm just requesting that your personal opinion (basically, the suggestor's opinion) should not be less than that.

You know, it takes a lot fewer words to just say "Only recommendations you think are any good, please."

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lols screw you Brandon. What maps of mine have you even played? reality03 map03 isn't pretty enough for you?

You wanna play hard maps? Then play them and stop worrying so much about how they look. That's kinda the point.

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"Tough non-slaughter maps" immediately makes me think of Malcolm Sailor's maps, such as the Chord series, most famously CHORD_NG.

Otherwise, Death Tormention II has some maps that are pretty tough, if played from a pistol start (assume that for all my recommendations).

Other ideas would be Rebirth, Armadosia (some maps not balanced for pistol start at all, due to missing weapons, but most OK) and Slayer (some verging on slaughter). And most of the maps in HR and KS aren't really slaughter maps.

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esselfortium said:

You know, it takes a lot fewer words to just say "Only recommendations you think are any good, please."


Yes, I can agree.

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Grazza said:

"Tough non-slaughter maps" immediately makes me think of Malcolm Sailor's maps, such as the Chord series, most famously CHORD_NG.

Otherwise, Death Tormention II has some maps that are pretty tough, if played from a pistol start (assume that for all my recommendations).

Other ideas would be Rebirth, Armadosia (some maps not balanced for pistol start at all, due to missing weapons, but most OK) and Slayer (some verging on slaughter). And most of the maps in HR and KS aren't really slaughter maps.


Besides Chord_NG I've played them all, but the Chord series is an excellent idea; I actually forgot about those classics!

I think I need to change wording a bit here though. When I say non-slaughtermaps I don't mean only exclude maps with upwards of 500, 1000, or however many monsters. I'm looking for maps where generally, the actual ratio of monster count versus map size is not significantly steeper than say most IWAD maps (excluding the more crowded levels in Plutonia) and/or older classic megawad maps (like MM(2), Icarus, or Requiem, and obviously excluding HR). Off the top of my head, Chord NG and Scythe 2 Map29 (in addition to my own mention of Skepland) are the best fits mentioned so far as to the type of stuff I'm looking for.

If you mention a megawad I'd like to know what map(s) in specific fit best.

And like I requested before (except using essel's wording this time), they do need to be good quality maps altogether in your opinion.

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Try Suburbs (Map16 of DOOM 2) on UV, from pistol start, with the fast monsters parameter enabled. If you're really good, try it on Nightmare.

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Most maps by Jodwin. E.g. Ode to Resurrection, A Lost Soul, Hell's Sewer etc.

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Step 1: open a map editor
Step 2: load a wad that has at least 4/5 stars detail and architecture
Step 3: remove all health and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 4: remove all ammo and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 5: make all sectors damaging floors and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 6: remove player 1 start

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eternal slumber said:

Step 1: open a map editor
Step 2: load a wad that has at least 4/5 stars detail and architecture
Step 3: remove all health and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 4: remove all ammo and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 5: make all sectors damaging floors and play

If it's not hard enough,
Step 6: remove player 1 start


If it's not hard enough,
Step 7: open a map editor and create your own wad :)

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I just opened my demo page at DSDA and here's what I saw and has not been mentioned

10sector MAP17 (87 monsters) - high monster density, low firepower
cleim20 MAP05 (81 monsters) - for today's standards, this map "is horribly balanced". well, some ammo is missing
par-lutz E1M4 (48 monsters) - the train map. very little space to manoeuver
d2reload MAP18 (163 monsters) - run through the warehouse pacifist style
end2 E3M8 (8 monsters) - stuffed with voodoo dolls, this is maybe not very clever but definitely difficult to survive

and there's also a similar thread...

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Wait for the release of the megawad Swift Death, it will go out maybe at the end of the year, maps are created speedmapping, but as I have many projects to be worked, swift death puts quite a lot of time to go out regrettably (maps 14 are finished for the moment)

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In addition to the ones already mentioned these spring to mind.

d2reload map 3, 212 monsters

Gyrotechnics, t-gyro.wad, by Tango, 92 uv monsters

sodfinal map 23, 193 monsters

harder maps using lower monster count maps often use mid to upper level monsters rather than using much in the way of lower level monsters.

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j4rio said:

map 5 of sunder - 150 enemies or something like that, go figure


Ah BUTTTTTT, if the enemies are spread out, that's not very hard,

but the question is, without high monster densities.

MM EAT THAT SIR

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phobosdeimos1 said:

Ah BUTTTTTT, if the enemies are spread out, that's not very hard,

but the question is, without high monster densities.

MM EAT THAT SIR


Huh? High density of monsters? Where? :))
Maps with 20X-30X (or so) more monsters in sunder are seriously easier to beat than map 5. It's the terrain which plays a major role in difficulty.

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