Things That WAD Designers Do That Irritate You

[TimeOfDeath666]

EarthQuake said:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7748/miterplz.png

But the distance between the 45° wall is still different from the 0° and 90° walls. ;)

[Gez]

gothic said:

-Bad Zdoom maps in hexen format

Bad ZDoom maps in Doom format or in UDMF are fine, however; as well as bad Boom maps, bad Doomsday maps, bad Eternity maps, etc.

[j4rio]

Pirx said:

what's bad about them? it's a rewarding find, after all.

IMO all maps should be completable without finding any secrets, but these tend to make really huge balance gaps. In FDA contests or something like that somebody could get in a major advantage because he hugged the correct wall... I hope it makes some sense.

[killer2]

FDA contests?Never seen,or heard of any of those. And even if there are things like that,the'yre so obscure it doesn't even matter that much.

[The_MártonJános]

Most of the annoyances I'm suffering of have been listed above. However...

I know that back in the time (especially 1994-1998), looks weren't so vital. Also know that fun gameplay was the central aim. In that time.

But NOW. We're in the XXI. century, it's not much more than 2 months until 2012, and I still see recent WADs having soooo ugly solutions (such as BROWN1 and CEIL3_5 meeting at a very "sympathetic harmony") that I can't repeat visual mode is NOT SENT FOR NOTHING. It's obvious that back in 1993, a "flawless game" couldn't be made and still, it was a major breakthrough in FPS history. Disregarding DTWiD and other stuff that are aiming to emulate classic style, aesthetism shouldn't be abused. Trust me, you can have a flawless playthrough using all 19 monster species all over, if looks just ruin it.

Of course, this scheme doesn't work well Vice Versa either. That's why I'm looking for volunteers who may fullfil my previously layouted maps with monsters, items and gameplay and may also re-tailor fight areas which didn't succeed well.

That's all folks.

[Memfis]

killer2 said:

FDA contests?Never seen,or heard of any of those.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-speed-demos/56004-first-try-demo-contest-7/1/

Hmmm, maybe I should make a map for the next contest. :)

[_bruce_]

40oz said:

Oh great one of these threads.

Weapons in the starting room.

No shotgun or shotgun shells but a hundred million shotgun guys (sucks for coop)

Maps with scarce ammo but also no berserk or chainsaw.

Wads intended to be played with saves so there's only one of each weapon in the entire episode.

Handrails made out of impassible lines and submerged MIDBARS textures. Fuck handrails, stop restricting my movement.

Symmetrical rooms made worse with symmetrical map layout, made even worse with symmetrical thing placement.

Secret areas that are just a tiny closet with a weapon or soulsphere in them.

Unfaithful remakes with more detail than character.

Maps with more traps and surprise ambushes than arranged monster placement.

Maps that are just too long.

I think I've heard enough unfitting rise of the triad music for one lifetime.

BFG9000 oriented levels.

Mancubi that are really really REALLY far away. (yes, you, Speed of Doom.)

Skill levels in which the harder skill levels change invulnerabilities into megaspheres. Are you serious?

Armor bonuses leading up to armor.

Light Amplification Visors.

Unprecedented Cyberdemon fights.

Making screenshots more entertaining than the level itself.

Beautiful expansive mountainous landscapes with the gameplay contained in tiny sections so that you feel like you're playing in a big level even though the playable area is very small.

Hahaha - damn fine list.

[Pirx]

killer2 said:

Well,spider masterminds are pretty hard to use well.They either get too hard,or very easy.Cyberdemons,on the other hand,are really easy to use,since they can be used in (almost) any situation.

that's true. there's also the fact that the spiderdemon is a hitscanner and hitscanners are imo less interesting to fight in general because they hit the player no matter how he is dodging, either you have cover or you eat lead. projectile throwers provide much more interesting fights and display of skill, when one dodges a cyber's rockets repeatedly in close quarters.

MajorRawne said:

- Pink Demon hordes... this deserves a seperate mention, since Pink Demons are simply not a threat on most maps/in most situations. Maybe reducing their Pain chance, or doubling the damage they inflict when they hit, would make them more frightening.

the danger with pinkies is getting trapped, rather than bitten.

making them faster than the player looks pretty stupid, perhaps increasing strength and range of their bite would make them indeed a more dangerous enemy.

i found the jumping pinkie interesting, iirc in cheogsh there was one (although darker reddish version) that jumped at me and bit me. i had just picked up a berserk, saw some demons coming, thought ok, nothing special, boxing match. and then that demon jumped in my face. ouch! demon eclipse had another one that spit blood at you.

[fullmetalvaran33]

This is an interesting thread...

What bothers me:

1. Putting too much/too little ammo in their maps. (Same goes for monster placement).
2. Mappers that don't explore height variation, and the results are bland, flat, and linear.
3. WADs the incorporate atmospheric music but have no dramatic lighting to contribute.
4. Puzzles/switch hunts/key hunts that are more tedious and confusing than challenging and engaging.
5. Maps with bad texture combinations/conflicting themes.
6. Using monsters (be it custom or the original ones) in a WAD where their don't match with the theme (i.e. The use of Hell Warriors in the tech-oriented "Knee Deep in ZDoom" was awkward).
7. Maps that have terrible new music. Or, on the other hand, maps that have no new music, and the classic track available is very ill-fitting.
8. Over-powered bosses
9. Objects, items, and/or architecture that gets in your way and ruins your strategies.
10. Really obscure secrets that most people won't be able to find.
11. Epically large maps that have terrible layouts (i.e. "Junko")
12. Pain Elemental/Revenant/Chaingunner over-use
13. Repetative, predictable game play.
14. Bland, boring, plain visuals.

[killer2]

fullmetalvaran33 said:

10. Really obscure secrets that most people won't be able to find.

I agree on all of your points except this one. Sure, most people may not find it, but think about the ones that actually do (without cheating). Those people will feel very awesome.

[gun_psycho]

I don't have much that irritates me, but I have quite a few that really bug the shit out of me.

1. Key/Switch hunt maps that take FOREVER to complete, especially if they're the epically-large ones. (I'm glad I'm not the only one with that opinion)
2. Irritatingly-complex or nigh-impossible methods of triggering or reaching secret exits. (I'm looking at you, Scythe II Map31!)
3. Secrets where you only have one shot at obtaining. (This isn't too bad for normal secrets, seeing that I'm not the UV-Max type of doomer, but this is a dick move as far as secret level exits are concerned.
4. Areas in slaughtermaps that have little-to-no cover, particularly if homing projectile users or hitscanners are involved.
5. Voodoo dolls strewn about for no reason. (Map01 and Map20 of CC1 have been very guilty of this, particularly the latter)

[Ravick]

Some things I dislike:

* Lots of monsters in a large area that don't really offer difficulty.

* Maps that mixes atmospheres: I mean, high-tech bases mixed with medieval temples.

* Maps without "feeling", no atmosphere at all.

* The same dumb old stock monsters (except for old-school maps, of course), or new monsters that are as stupid as the old ones.

* Very long and hard hunts for a key or a switch. Same are so long that you forget the door that you are trying to open.

* For new-school maps, weak weapons for to strong monsters. It's just boring to shoot 15-20 times a hell-nobles like monster and then find mor 10 in the next arena.

* Have to jump to avoid falling at a deathly floor. ('hate it)

* No surprises at all; Even for old-school maps: something creative to break the sameness is good!

[Marnetmar]

Those maps where the exit is directly in front of you when you start. Probably the worst gimmick there is.

[Spinesplitter]

Marnetmar said:

Those maps where the exit is directly in front of you when you start. Probably the worst gimmick there is.

Yeah it's like "Bet you want to get here huh? haha can't yet!"
Thats fuckin' bullshit, I hate it too.

[elic]

Marnetmar said:

Those maps where the exit is directly in front of you when you start. Probably the worst gimmick there is.

What's wrong with that? It gives an idea of what yo need to do to complete the level, which helps a lot in nonlinear maps.

[phobosdeimos1]

Cell said:

Most of the annoyances I'm suffering of have been listed above. However...

I know that back in the time (especially 1994-1998), looks weren't so vital. Also know that fun gameplay was the central aim. In that time.

But NOW. We're in the XXI. century, it's not much more than 2 months until 2012, and I still see recent WADs having soooo ugly solutions (such as BROWN1 and CEIL3_5 meeting at a very "sympathetic harmony") that I can't repeat visual mode is NOT SENT FOR NOTHING. It's obvious that back in 1993, a "flawless game" couldn't be made and still, it was a major breakthrough in FPS history. Disregarding DTWiD and other stuff that are aiming to emulate classic style, aesthetism shouldn't be abused. Trust me, you can have a flawless playthrough using all 19 monster species all over, if looks just ruin it.

Of course, this scheme doesn't work well Vice Versa either. That's why I'm looking for volunteers who may fullfil my previously layouted maps with monsters, items and gameplay and may also re-tailor fight areas which didn't succeed well.

That's all folks.

Surely looks are such a personal thing. I always hear "map for yourself" which makes it hard for me as not only do I think alot of texture combinations that everyone hatea look good, but I also love certain obvious misalignments, so much that I'm never going to autoalign again

here's my list:

maps that don't make you think; "how did that all come together like that?"

jokewads

cramped up maps / wall detailing that you can run up onto like a step
(i'll take a "plain" open area with no detail over that anyday

Maps with sound replacements but no sprite's to go with them?

Maps containing shapes that don't at least conform to the 32 x grid, and furthermore, don't keep to the straight multiples of 32 or 45

Maps that don't replace CWILV**, TITLEPIC and automap names

Slaughter maps

Maps with a midi cover of a pop song

[Spinesplitter]

Processingcontrol said:

What's wrong with that? It gives an idea of what yo need to do to complete the level, which helps a lot in nonlinear maps.

It's cool sometimes but but usually it's just a substitute for creativity. We all know what to do, get the three keys and get to the exit.

[Mithran Denizen]

So it'd be more creative design if the player still had to get three keys and still had to get to the exit, but the exit was somewhere else in the level? It sort of sounds like more of a complaint against uninspired key usage in general rather than whether or not you know where the exit is from the start.

[hex11]

Someone should make a map where the exit room is right next to P1 start, but then it's actually a trap/fake exit like in E2M6. ;)

[molten_]

Spinesplitter said:

It's cool sometimes but but usually it's just a substitute for creativity. We all know what to do, get the three keys and get to the exit.

You could easily design it so that you don't have to use any keys to get to the exit, just obstruct the player from reaching it and force him to take the long way.

[Ghost`01]

I don't like revenant/chaingunner spam. Or spam of any of the Doom 2 monsters really. Those 2 bother me the most, but I prefer well done WADs with a moderate level of difficulty, I'm not very good at slaughterwads, though I always play on UV difficulty.

[Snakes]

Ghost`01 said:

I'm not very good at slaughterwads, though I always play on UV difficulty.

If this thread were titled "Thing That WAD Players Do That Irritate You" then I'd have to put this one near the tip-top of the irritation mountain.

[Guest]

Snakes said:

If this thread were titled "Thing That WAD Players Do That Irritate You" then I'd have to put this one near the tip-top of the irritation mountain.

Right up there with not reading the .readme file and then complaining how the wad you just downloaded doesn't work. (Though it's kinda ironic me posting this, as a far more likely scenario in my case is the player did read the .readme to my wad, but it still didn't work coz I did horrible things to the TEXTURE1 lump. Or something.)

[Phml]

Right up there with not reading the .readme file and then complaining how the wad you just downloaded doesn't work.

Ah, that brings to mind a pet peeve of mine: recent wads starting on anything other than MAP01 (or E1M1). Bonus point if there's no textfile/indication whatsoever of the map slot used.

(I get that some wads need map-specific behavior. It still annoys me, because I'm lazy.)

[DeathevokatioN]

Another thing that annoys me are wads that don't make enough use of chaingunners and revenants. Ultimate Doom monsters are generic and boring to fight against, Doom 2 introduced new monsters for a reason.

[deathz0r]

40oz said:

Beautiful expansive mountainous landscapes with the gameplay contained in tiny sections so that you feel like you're playing in a big level even though the playable area is very small.

Someone should tell this to id Software because man did I rage at RAGE for that

This list I'm gonna write is DM/CTF oriented so it probably won't apply to most people here BUT BE WARNED:

* Symmetrical DM layouts
* Going down a flight of stairs and hitting the wall of a lower ceiling
* Generally confusing DM layouts
* Abundance of detail to the point where it hinders player movement
* Single cramped point of entry for team bases in CTF maps (fuck zdctfmp06)

I'm fairly pragmatic about everything else

[The_MártonJános]

Marnetmar said:

Those maps where the exit is directly in front of you when you start. Probably the worst gimmick there is.

I assume Memento Mori II's MAP16 wasn't your taste.

[40oz]

esselfortium said:

I'm not sure I get this one. Do you take issue with the solid 24-high sector handrails in E1? .... or actually, what about full-height midtex railings like the ones around the slime pool in E1M3's start room? Are those included in this?

I was actually thinking more along the lines of the handrails that show up in almost all of the maps of HR2. There are a few maps in Requiem that are super guilty of this too.

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5791/doom0001.png

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3294/doom0002.png

[DeathevokatioN]

I love hand rails for some reason, maybe because of the way they emphasize the layout.

[Tarnsman]

DeathevokatioN said:

I love hand rails for some reason, maybe because of the way they emphasize the layout.

Handrails are a tricky thing. I agree with 40oz about the HR2 and Requiem usage being annoying as hell, because all those hand rails do is impede movement. Especially on the "city/town/I don't know what the hell they're called" maps in Requiem where you HAVE to go down stairs instead of jumping or you have to go back through a building instead of falling off a bridge because there are damn blocking handrails everywhere.