GreyGhost Posted November 18, 2011 As a Windows user, I've learnt to live with non-intrusive DRM but that doesn't mean I have to like it. So far as video games go, I've already re-purchased one from GOG after my SecuROM protected original decided it didn't like dual-core CPUs and refused to install. Draconian reinstall limits and always-online requirements (the ancient copper network I'm connected through usually guarantees several reconnects per day) are irritations I can live without, one saving grace being that most of the titles involved are of no interest to me and if the others don't re-surface in a DRM-free form I'm sure I can live without them. One area of PC software sales that's very much in decline is the second-hand market, which is being killed by digital delivery and physical copies being rendered worthless by online authentication - not that the publishers give a damn. Historically, my main gripe with Steam is that it was part of the system requirements for Half-Life 2 when I was still on dialup - still haven't played that game. 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted November 18, 2011 I'm not sure there's much of a need for a second hand market when everything becomes dirt cheap pretty quick. Even Fallout New Vegas with all expansions is $40 on PC. In half a year it will be $20. 0 Share this post Link to post
Xeros612 Posted November 18, 2011 Cyanosis said:Gee I wonder why. That was only explained earlier by Fuzzy. "Oh well the DRM isn't doing anything to me lol" It's taking your rights away you fucking git. >implying playing videogames in any way is a right Good lord you are dumb. DRM is terrible unless it's something like ARMA's FADE or Batman: AA's "Batman can't glide for shit" system that actually only harms pirated copies, yes, but it's far from anyone's right to play a videogame. 0 Share this post Link to post
Use Posted November 18, 2011 rf` said:The way I see it is this. If you don't like Steam, then don't play games on Steam, and don't complain about it. Then how are you going to feel superior to those who choose to use Steam? You need to start thinking ahead my man. 0 Share this post Link to post
GreyGhost Posted November 18, 2011 geo said:I'm not sure there's much of a need for a second hand market when everything becomes dirt cheap pretty quick. Even Fallout New Vegas with all expansions is $40 on PC. In half a year it will be $20. What'll it cost when the publisher's no longer interested in supporting that title? 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted November 18, 2011 Uh its not an online multiplayer game so they'll always support it. Always. In fact they still support Daggerfall from 15+ years ago. Maybe if it was an online multiplayer they'd discontinue it like Microsoft did with X-Box and Halo 2 online multiplayer.... which is DRM free. 0 Share this post Link to post
DELETE-THIS-ACCOUNT Posted November 18, 2011 geo said:Uh its not an online multiplayer game so they'll always support it. Always. In fact they still support Daggerfall from 15+ years ago. Maybe if it was an online multiplayer they'd discontinue it like Microsoft did with X-Box and Halo 2 online multiplayer.... which is DRM free. Do you have any evidence that they still support Daggerfall? I know they released it as freeware, and they bundle it with DosBox, but I have serious doubts they help you with it. 0 Share this post Link to post
AndrewB Posted November 18, 2011 Xeros612 said:>implying playing videogames in any way is a right I'm pretty sure "playing video games" is not the right people are talking about losing. I think the rights in question are the ones laid out in the constitution or the bill of rights or some old document like that. 0 Share this post Link to post
Fletcher` Posted November 18, 2011 Use3D said:Then how are you going to feel superior to those who choose to use Steam? You need to start thinking ahead my man. I use Steam. :V 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted November 18, 2011 This thread left me with the impression that there are actually people that like DRM. Then again there are people who love eating shit or having their balls pierced by hot needles, so I guess it's a plain old question of de gustibus...so maybe DRM is really catering to some sort of fetish? 0 Share this post Link to post
Phml Posted November 18, 2011 Reading EE does feel like connecting with a completely different reality sometimes. Fact: everytime I want to play a Steam game, I have to wait an extra few seconds to launch my game, the time it takes for Steam to load up. That's the best case scenario, if offline mode works correctly and/or if Steam doesn't try to download updates and stuff despite me telling it not to. Those extra few seconds aren't objectively much, but they're still an extra something for no personal gain for me, the consumer. Download games wherever I want? I'm not some rich guy with two homes and a bazillion computers, so there's no need for me to download the same game multiple times. Achievements? I'm not eighteen years old anymore, as much as I wish I was sometimes. Updates? I prefer to apply these manually, as to know what I'm installing exactly. Sometimes I might like an older version of the software, even if the developer feels the new one is an improvement. Social stuff? I don't have many videogame playing friends, and even if I had, I could just as well use any other instant chat program. The overlay is more distracting than helpful - I don't need having someone popping up to tell me what's up while I'm frantically strafing amidst headless kamikazes. So, zero added value, and some added inconvenience, however minor it might be. Yet somehow, saying "I don't like Steam" prompts people to react like you've attacked their religion. Kind of a tangent here but I find that trend so silly on EE ; so many of you guys pretend to be agnostics, and yet react like the worst religious zealots about a piece of software, a music band or an operating system. Even that dude who venerated elevators made more sense than this, in my opinion. 0 Share this post Link to post
Lila Feuer Posted November 18, 2011 I'll post again in here, with a noncontributing response cause I'm a dirty little masochist. Maes said:Then again there are people who love eating shit or having their balls pierced by hot needles, so I guess it's a plain old question of de gustibus...so maybe DRM is really catering to some sort of fetish? Funniest thing I've read this morning thank you. Phml said:Reading EE does feel like connecting with a completely different reality sometimes. I try to stay out of here but someone keeps holding a gun to my head demanding to defend the motherland. OR ELSE. Phml said:"I don't like Steam" prompts people to react like you've attacked their religion. ::clears throat:: STEAMUX GABEO! ::shotgun blast:: Oh no the clerk is going to ask me to leave the store again. OR ELSE. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted November 18, 2011 Phml said:So, zero added value, and some added inconvenience, however minor it might be. This is true of many other RL services as well, at least the way they evolve over time, with corporate-side efficiency/cost cuts taking priority over consumer-side long-term convenience (or product durability, in the case of material goods). E.g. some countries abolished coin-op payphones altogether in the mid-90s when pre-paid cards were touted as the "NEW AND ENHANCED!!!", more convenient alternative ("YOU CAN CALL EVEN WITHOUT COINS IN YOUR POCKET! ZOMG!"). The real convenience however was NOT on the consumer's side, as many were led to believe, but at the Telco's side: since the minimum unit of "phone time" was the price of a card, they had potentially larger profits and they got the entire sum in advance. Also, they didn't have to worry about phone vandalism or collecting coins anymore, so for them it was a pretty sweet deal. For the consumer, The fact that you had to put together a relatively large amount of money to buy even the cheapest such card in advance (even when you maybe wanted to do a single-coin call or ended up not calling at all), and that you had to have access to a place where they were sold, was conveniently handwaved.... If you consider how DD (and the associated DRM) result in a much convenient model for publishers, you can see why it's in their best interest to convince consumers that it's good for them too, overall. Even if this may not be entirely precise. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vesperas_ Posted November 18, 2011 Maes said:This thread left me with the impression that there are actually people that like DRM. Then again there are people who love eating shit or having their balls pierced by hot needles, so I guess it's a plain old question of de gustibus...so maybe DRM is really catering to some sort of fetish? As hilarious as this is, no one is proclaiming this. Remember 15+ years ago when you had to enter a CD key to authenticate your disc? I'm sure if you dig deep enough, you can find examples of people who had issues with that or lost their CD keys. As a matter of fact, I remember having to contact Blizzard customer service back in 1998 or whatever because my Diablo II CD key did not work. The CD key is a form of authentication and was one of the earliest forms of "DRM." While I'm sure people complained about that as well (especially with having to insert the disc each time they wished to play), the truth is, who cares? Flash forward to now, that same CD key needs to only be entered once, which attaches it to your Steam account (authenticates it) and that's it! The difference is, you need to use the Steam software to access your account, which is not a big deal. It uses barely any resources (as I have shown) and has a bunch of added value with forums, dedicated servers, Steam sales, a cohesive community, whatever. You can play in offline mode (I do all of the time). If that isn't good enough and none of those features appeal to you, don't use it. I don't particularly care. Phml said:Fact: everytime I want to play a Steam game, I have to wait an extra few seconds to launch my game, the time it takes for Steam to load up. That's the best case scenario, if offline mode works correctly and/or if Steam doesn't try to download updates and stuff despite me telling it not to. Each time I wish to post, I need to enter my info and wait for Doomworld to load. Each time I wish to use Skype, I need to enter my info and wait for Skype to load. Each time I want to use MS Paint, I need to go into my Start menu, Accessories and click on it! This is clearly unacceptable because it all takes like 5 seconds! Offline mode could use a little work but I've never had issues with the "do not update my games" option in Steam. Phml said:Yet somehow, saying "I don't like Steam" prompts people to react like you've attacked their religion. Be fair. If you read the thread it is quite the opposite, really. The abbreviated version: Some people commented on the hack and said they liked the Steam service (used it), so were understandably worried, people like chungy and Fuzzyfireball came in and basically called the Steam users idiots for using Steam, while others blamed Steam for the fall of PC gaming. Since, I've basically been explaining why I use it because people seem to tremendously care and that Steam most certainly is not the cause for the fall of PC gaming. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted November 18, 2011 Sig-ma said:The CD key is a form of authentication and was one of the earliest forms of "DRM." Ha! "Copy protection" thing existed long before CDs, let alone CD keys. "Click on the symbol that appears at page <random number> of your manual" repeated thrice. "Hit the first letter of the <random number>th word, <random number>th paragraph on page <random number> of your manual." "Your citizens doubt that you are a true leader. To prove your worth, look in your manual and tell which sciences are needed to discover <random science>." "Put the 4-suit punched grids in the order <random order> and click which of heart, space, diamond or club is the symbol appearing at <random coordinate>" "Type the name of the star system identified by this code <random combination of three Star Wars alphabet letters>" And many, many more of the same ilk. Those somewhat disappeared after CD-ROMs were introduced (at the time, people called them CD-ROMs rather than just CDs). For a time, people just thought that the fact a game would need dozens upon dozens of floppies to pirate would save them. But the hard drives became big enough, so you could borrow the game from a friend, copy it fully on the HD, and give the disc back. So they put CD checks. Then there was CD burners, and they started tweaking the discs to make them uncopiable through various means (generally using non-standard tricks which resulted in the normal disc not being readable on cheap hardware). Then they invented CD keys. Then they looked for "more reliable" methods and Starforce, SecuROM and co. appeared. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vesperas_ Posted November 18, 2011 What? You mean I need to walk over to the shelf, pull my manual out of the box, flip to some random page and look for the information it asks for? That will take me like, 30 seconds! Nevermind the fact I may not even have the manual anymore or the page said information is on may be unreadable due to a coffee stain or whatever. Clearly unacceptable. Kidding aside, that was a bit before my time as a PC gamer but I appreciate the history lesson. :) I went the whole NES, SNES, Playstation, N64 route first. I purchased my first PC for Diablo II and because I wanted to play Doom as it was 'meant to be played,' being that my first experience with Doom was on the Playstation. Then, between modding and various games (Half-Life, Quake 3, etc.) I remained a PC gamer primarily. The last console I owned was a PS2. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted November 18, 2011 It seems to me that what companies DON'T want now is gamers being able to silently grab a copy of a game, open the box, pop it in and simply play in peace in the quiet of their basements, without any "logging in", "online accounts", "value-added services", "multiplayer", "social media integration", "interactive forums" or any of that shit: that just wouldn't be profitable/good enough any more. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mithran Denizen Posted November 18, 2011 Sig-ma said:Each time I want to use MS Paint, I need to go into my Start menu, Accessories and click on it! This is clearly unacceptable because it all takes like 5 seconds!PROTIP: Hit "Meta key + R", type "mspaint", and hit "enter", to save four of those seconds. You can't do that (as far as I know) to bypass Steam when you want to play Half-Life 2 or whatever, though. Anyway, Phml acknowledged that the Steam startup time isn't really that big a deal, but I have to agree that it contributes to being an added nuisance with no real gain for me, since I don't have any interest in using the Steam platform's features either. I guess publishers love it, but I'm just lucky that I don't play enough games to warrant putting up with such nonsense. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vesperas_ Posted November 18, 2011 Maes said:It seems to me that what companies DON'T want now is gamers being able to silently grab a copy of a game, open the box, pop it in and simply play in peace in the quiet of their basements, without any "logging in", "online accounts", "value-added services", "multiplayer", "social media integration", "interactive forums" or any of that shit: that just wouldn't be profitable/good enough any more. Pretty much. This has been happening for a long, long time. Battle.net existed before Valve even did, let alone Steam. I don't really see how that translates into "Fuck Valve for wanting to provide a unified system where people could download games, easily access patches, have dedicated servers and whatever else," considering the popularity of services like Battle.net and how one of Valve's largest titles, Counter-Strike, was primarily MP? To me, the fact that the Steam platform exists makes perfect sense. As Gez said with copy-protection, CD-keys and whatever else, the PC gaming transition toward a service like Steam shouldn't have surprised anyone. EDIT: I just want to add, even GOG.com has a service agreement. If your account is hacked or whatever myriad of issues that could arise, do arise, you lose your account and your games. You can back them up, sure. You can do the same with Steam. My point there is merely calling Steam DRM when all it requires (baseline) is authentication, running of software and one minute worth of an internet connection isn't a very good argument due to the fact you need to sit on the internet for significantly longer to download a game from GOG.com. If people don't like it, that's fine. I don't really like running Doom in DosBox, personally. If the argument is purely against DRM, I agree. As a general rule of thumb, I hate DRM (and who doesn't). I simply don't consider Steam itself to be that, since it does a lot more than simply making sure I purchased my game. It's like complaining about having to enter a CD-key, look in a manual or entering your info so Doomworld can make sure who you are before allowing you to post. Mirhran Denizen said:PROTIP: Hit "Meta key + R", type "mspaint", and hit "enter", to save four of those seconds. You can't do that (as far as I know) to bypass Steam when you want to play Half-Life 2 or whatever, though. Anyway, Phml acknowledged that the Steam startup time isn't really that big a deal, but I have to agree that it contributes to being an added nuisance with no real gain for me, since I don't have any interest in using the Steam platform's features either. I guess publishers love it, but I'm just lucky that I don't play enough games to warrant putting up with such nonsense. I know Phml did and I'm not disagreeing with him. I was using hyperbole merely to demonstrate shit like this exists everywhere and that this is not even remotely new to Steam. It's like complaining you need to turn your computer on in the morning and wait for it to load. If it bothers you, leave your computer (or Steam) on. Again, publishers / developers deciding to use Steam is their choice. Does it bother people so when they can't play an Xbox 360 exclusive on their PS3 because the developer chose to make their game on that platform? I'm sure it does bother some people but it is such a ridiculous complaint. That's just how it is, how it always has been and possibly, how it will always be. 0 Share this post Link to post
hex11 Posted November 18, 2011 There is a mighty big difference between DRM and the old copy-protection schemes, and it is the issue of control. In the old days, you could backup your software and related items, install and use the programs however you wished, and in the end sell them on the used market (even in a bundle along with your old machine). With DRM, all the control is in the hands of the vendor. You cannot so much as fart without them knowing about it, and they have to approve that too. You are constantly under surveillance, and any deviations from "standard" behavior (legitimate or not) may cause them to shut you down first and ask questions later. Most likely, it will be you who has the burden to prove your "innocense", in order to get your service re-established, and even in the best case you may still have to pony up a "re-connection" fee. There is also the matter of the DRM software being hijacked by nefarious parties. It can be used as an attack vector to install malware, spyware, etc. Or it can be a buggy POS that doesn't work well on some hardware/software combinations, and hence why some users experience strange issues. But so long as I'm not forced to use any DRM service, I don't care what anybody else does. It will only become a problem for me if such schemes become integrated at the hardware level, so that only some "approved" commercial OS can run on newer computers. This probably wouldn't fly too well in the near future, but in time it may come to pass. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vesperas_ Posted November 18, 2011 What a well-written post. Thanks, hex11. See, I agree with this entirely. While you're obviously exaggerating a bit, I can see the issues there and understand them. As I said before, it is primarily an issue based on principle. As someone who played console games for years before moving to PC, I'm used to dealing with vendors and their software requirements. That said, where do you draw the line? Many forums (including this one, I'm sure) track your post history, post count, IP-address and your account is essentially in the hands of a 'vendor' and I'm liable to being banned for breaking any variety of rules. For as long as I can remember, games (or any form of software, really) have been subject to similar rules and restrictions but were hardly enforced. While games have transitioned to more blatant services, games have always been considered a service; were never guaranteed to work beyond the scope of what the publisher / developer provided for and their support of said product was entirely at their discretion. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted November 18, 2011 hex11 said:It will only become a problem for me if such schemes become integrated at the hardware level, so that only some "approved" commercial OS can run on newer computers. *cough cough* Apple, iOS, MacOSX *cough cough* 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted November 18, 2011 Shouldn't this be a new topic about DRM and not in the Steam gets hacked? Oh and to the person that wonders how Bethesda / Zenimax still support Daggerfall... the fact that they include dosbox instead of putting it out there without dosbox and saying good luck suckers try to make it work! And does anyone really help you and hold your hand to help you with something? Nope there are game manuals and text files of game included with the game and websites put out by the company. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted November 18, 2011 geo said:Nope there are game manuals Wait, you mean I have to READ? Fuck that, I want my money back. Actually, I feel insulted, I'll sue for $100000000000000000000000. geo said:and text files of game HELLO I NEW TO DOS HOW I DISPLAY TEKST FIEL? 0 Share this post Link to post
Mithran Denizen Posted November 18, 2011 Sig-ma said:Does it bother people so when they can't play an Xbox 360 exclusive on their PS3 because the developer chose to make their game on that platform? I'm sure it does bother some people but it is such a ridiculous complaint. That's just how it is, how it always has been and possibly, how it will always be. At least with the XBox 360 vs. PS3 thing, there's a more defined hardware exclusivity component seperating the two, in addition to the firmware/software. With PC Steam-exclusives, I get a game that I should essentially already be able to run on my machine, but it's encumbered with a bunch of annoyances, DRM, and more middleware (like Steamworks) that I personally have no use for, so the value of the whole thing is just degraded to me. I wouldn't be bothered by the fact that putting a PS3 game into an Xbox doesn't let me play that game, because there is nothing to suggest that I could do so with that machine, and the discs themselves are in different formats, anyway. I would be bothered, though, if I purchased an Xbox game, which, after inserting the disc into my Xbox, then required me to launch another third-party software platform on top of the usual Xbox OS, and then required me to connect to an external server for authentication before allowing me to play. The XBox 360 is already loaded with enough DRM that this isn't necessary, I suppose, but I still think your above analogy is a little shallow when referring to Steam. geo said:Uh its not an online multiplayer game so they'll always support it. Always. In fact they still support Daggerfall from 15+ years ago. Maybe if it was an online multiplayer they'd discontinue it like Microsoft did with X-Box and Halo 2 online multiplayer.... which is DRM free.I think you put a lot of undue faith in Bethesda/Zenimax. They might have a history of supporting (some of; I don't think they still sell Redguard, Battlespire or Terminator: Future Shock, for example) their old games, but what about all the companies that don't? Or the companies that can't? Strife is fairly popular around here, to mention just one example of such a game. If "digital distribution" methods like Steam were to annihilate the used games market, then it could become near-impossible to legally play those sorts of future hidden gems like Strife, where the distribution rights fall into limbo, or where the person/corporation who holds them doesn't give a shit. Probably half of my current games collection is comprised of titles that I bought used, because many of them haven't been available "new" for a long time. 0 Share this post Link to post
DELETE-THIS-ACCOUNT Posted November 18, 2011 Sig-ma said:I just want to add, even GOG.com has a service agreement. If your account is hacked or whatever myriad of issues that could arise, do arise, you lose your account and your games. I've talked with one of the staff about this not to long ago. Not a single account has been banned or hacked (minus forum spammers). Not saying it can't be. But all the hacker would get is classic games. GOG is about 30-40 members (last I checked), and they all post on the forum somewhat regularly. They're some of the nicest people you can meet. I really can't see them taking your games away for such a ridiculous reason. Anyways, I thought'd I'd just say that GOG.com is looking to release newer titles on top of their older titles, and are sticking to their core values. DRM-Free, flat prices worldwide, and bonus goodies after purchase. They had a survey about releasing newer titles DRM free on the site, and it was overwhelming, according to their PR (TheEnigmaticT), So, perhaps my and MANY others prayers have been answered? geo said:Oh and to the person that wonders how Bethesda / Zenimax still support Daggerfall... the fact that they include dosbox instead of putting it out there without dosbox and saying good luck suckers try to make it work! And does anyone really help you and hold your hand to help you with something? Nope there are game manuals and text files of game included with the game and websites put out by the company. Um, that's not support. Support is being able to contact their support, and them actually helping you. The reason they pack it with DosBox is so it will work on at least a majority of PC's. Rockstar released GTA 1/2 and Wild Metal as freeware. But you're on your own. Same with Apogee and some of their classics, or Remedy and Death Rally. They're just re-releasing them, not supporting them. 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted November 18, 2011 We're just getting all sorts of off topic now discussions on if Daggerfall is supported. In fact why are we even discussing support on a topic about something has been getting hacked? Actually no nevermind. Don't care. Someone close this topic. It's lost. 0 Share this post Link to post
Lila Feuer Posted November 18, 2011 Scary how willing people are to giving up their rights. If you choose to silence yourself, your ability to comprehend and reason, and everything else combined that's not my problem. It's all just a matter of how far can it be allowed to go before one says enough is enough? Or will it even matter by that point, because even though I'm positive some in here are likely no older than me, minus those 10+ years experience, you'd think one would of known how good we had it back then with gaming, freedom of artistic license and innovation. And how would it of been a problem had it just stayed the same? It's become a business today, a monopoly to capitalize on a nerd hobby, and now it's a very mainstream market catering to the majority, because the minority does not matter anymore. But that doesn't mean the minority ceases to exist. 0 Share this post Link to post
Craigs Posted November 18, 2011 Cyanosis said:It's all just a matter of how far can it be allowed to go before one says enough is enough? Or will it even matter by that point, because even though I'm positive some in here are likely no older than me, minus those 10+ years experience, you'd think one would of known how good we had it back then with gaming, freedom of artistic license and innovation. And how would it of been a problem had it just stayed the same? There have been things similar to DRM that have been around as far back as the 80s in the form of things such as code wheels and dongles. It's not a recent thing. It's become a business today, a monopoly to capitalize on a nerd hobby, and now it's a very mainstream market catering to the majority, because the minority does not matter anymore. But that doesn't mean the minority ceases to exist. It was always a business. Oh no the clerk is going to ask me to leave the store again. OR ELSE. Might be a good idea for you to leave since all you've done is embarass yourself with jaded opinions backed up by completely inaccurate bullshit. 0 Share this post Link to post
Lila Feuer Posted November 18, 2011 Oh, I get where you're at. I am not so dense I don't understand what you mean. Yes, that's fairly duh obvious what you just mentioned. But I'd also at least hope you get the general idea of what I meant also as well. 0 Share this post Link to post