how much do you exploit quirks and bugs during normal play?

[Phobus]

I will strafe run a lot in combat, but not too often when exploring a map. If I know I've got a distance to travel and that there's not a lot to fight, then strafe running is also used.

I also chaingun snipe, but as a ZDoom player it works a bit more easily I'd imagine.

Revenant baiting I'm not too keen on, as they ignore the "rules" if you've caused them to go into their pain state. I'll give it a go if I can get away with it, but dodging is usually the better bet (with strafe running, of course ;) )

Blocking pain elementals is pretty much SOP for Doomguy AFAIC

The silent BFG trick is a rare one for me to use, because it's not often I'm playing a map where I know I'll get away with it. Better off either using it as a melee weapon or "bursting" it over a room from a doorway or handy pillar.

As a ZDoom player I won't be making much use of wallrunning and the like, I'd dare say.


Long and short of it, I use the tools available to me when I can.

[Catoptromancy]

I like to set joyb_speed to 29. Or have ports emulate that exploit.

[Wagi]

SR40
Sometimes SR50
Wallrunning on accident
Chaingun tapping
Silent BFG (in Deathmatch)

[EarthQuake]

Oh damn, yeah, that's one we definitely take for granted. Before I knew about the autorun hax (or used source ports), I would continuously hold down my shift key until it would eventually become unresponsive and I'd have to buy a new keyboard.

[elic]

eternal slumber said:

Some mappers design their maps for sr50 and wallrunning, plus many other "quirks" and "bugs". It's all part of the game. :)

As in "some mappers" you mean yourself and like 2 other people? :P

[Lila Feuer]

I just rocket jumped (vanilla style) across some boxes to grab a megasphere in AV that I think an Arch-Vile was suppose to launch you up there before I killed it. I didn't want to leave it when I left the level but I wasn't going to cheat either, so after a few tries a well-angled rocket fired at a wall sent me flying into the power up.

[eargosedown]

I almost constantly sr40.

[40oz]

part of my determination at being a good mapper is knowing these bugs and quirks exist to keep players from exploiting them. I've started being a little more adamant about putting impassible lines around places you aren't supposed to go, like over fences and in low tunnels. I place my platforms far enough distance from each other so you can't jump to or over them. I try to use pain elementals so that they are distant and can effectively attack the player the way they were intended for, and various other minor stuff.

As a player I don't usually intentionally use bugs but there are a few that I do. As almost everyone here said, I strafe run all the time. I also do the bumpmap thing where I can reach dropped shotguns and chainguns behind midbars that I'm not supposed to get.

[Maes]

A neat trick is "closing the door in the face" of monsters, if there's a door between a horde of monsters that you can open/close at will, but the monsters can't.

Also, I try to discover whether I can subvert/defeat obligatory timed locks and trap doors by e.g. discovering what triggers them and delaying/avoiding them. This can result in interesting sequence breaking, if done right.

Read my review of Jodwin's Bratislava 2011 on newstuff/ #391 for examples of both tricks ;-)

[LogicDeLuxe]

eternal slumber said:

Some mappers design their maps for sr50 and wallrunning, plus many other "quirks" and "bugs". It's all part of the game. :)

A map may be designed with those in mind for shortcuts or easter eggs, but never should make them required skills. Fortunately, I never encountered a map actually requiring them so far.

[Graf Zahl]

The worst offender I can remember is MAP28 in Scythe which requires extreme speedrunning skill to complete. Make the tiniest movement error and you're toast.

I'm sorry but such maps should never be made outside of secret maps - and even then should have an emergency exit for those who don't possess the skills.

In the end I used ZDoom's MAPINFO to make the game skip over it because it's just not fun to play it.

[Phobus]

Graf Zahl said:

I'm sorry but such maps should never be made outside of secret maps - and even then should have an emergency exit for those who don't possess the skills.

I'm not sure they should "never be made" - I'd dare say there's people out there who'd love maps to have required SR50s or whatever. They'd just be maps that the majority of us would rather not play, which seems fine to me.

[dew]

Graf Zahl said:

I'm sorry but such maps should never be made outside of secret maps - and even then should have an emergency exit for those who don't possess the skills.

"i suck at this map, so we should delete it from existence and never create anything above my player skill again."

[Graf Zahl]

Let's phrase this better:

Such maps should never be made in larger projects as part of the mandatory progression.

As standalone map it'd be fine, albeit for a limited audience, but in a megawad it will keep many players from progressing beyond it.

[dew]

i can understand your reasoning, but scythe was made by a speedrunner with speedrunning in mind. in retrospect, i guess there should've been two separate timers for the BK room and the winding way, not a global timer for the whole map. if i wanted to make the map easier for me, i'd probably idclip through the first linedef on the first step just after the floor inscription. i also believe erik has made even more annoying maps than run from it. :)

[Graf Zahl]

dew said:

i can understand your reasoning, but scythe was made by a speedrunner with speedrunning in mind.

Having speedrunning in mind is one thing but having speedrunning as the only way to complete a map is something different.

Most of Scythe was great maps even when not considering speedrunning. It's just that this map requires a very particular skill to even complete - a skill only a few people have - that makes it a problem as a part of something larger.

[Memfis]

Is sc28 really that hard? Once you learn where all the traps are, it's a matter of a few minutes. And you don't need SR50 or some other mysterious speedrunning skills to finish it - simply straferun and make sharp turns. Yes, there is not much room for mistakes, but this is really the only way to make a short time-based map work.

[Lila Feuer]

I haven't played Scythe yet but far as speedrunning is concerned to finishing the level the hardest thing I've tried and failed miserably (that resulted in god mode) was the final level of 1994 Tune-Up Challenge on UV. It was still a release candidate at the time so maybe it's been toned down but it seemed to be flat out impossible to complete without everything ever killing you from all sides simultaneously from four boss shooters.

[Memfis]

I think usage of the term "speedrunning" is incorrect here. It's just a map that requires you to be quick. But yeah, that map is really hard. I didn't play it for too long because I hate monster spawners but it looks like a big challenge.

[Graf Zahl]

Memfis said:

Yes, there is not much room for mistakes.

That really is the problem I have with it. You have to be perfect in the execution. Normally a time-based objective should be designed that not every slight misstep means the end.

[TimeOfDeath666]

How many players used normal strafe-running (sr40) back when Doom was released? And how many players use normal strafe-running in 2011? The sooner players start using sr50 and other bugs/quirks, the sooner players will stop complaining about them. :)

SR50 can be easy to do in ZDoom, can't it? By binding all the keys so that you only have to press one key to sr50? Easier than normal sr40 strafe-running!

[Lila Feuer]

The only thing I don't like about SR50 is being unable to turn, this is, for me, tricky to utilize properly in conjunction with other actions. But I'm sure it would turn the tide of the battle in one's favor.

[ducon]

I sometimes use wallrunning, and various z-axis bugs (splash damage, switches).

[Graf Zahl]

eternal slumber said:

The sooner players start using sr50 and other bugs/quirks, the sooner players will stop complaining about them. :)

Nonsense!

The difference is that normal straferunning is just a part of how Doom handles movement (handling horizontal and vertical movement separately) so it can be achieved quite easily.

SR50, on the other hand, is the result of a bug. So you have to do some weird things/key bindings to enable it and thus should never be considered 'regular' gameplay. It's a speedrunning tactic and should remain just that.

Once SR50 requiring maps start to appear we will have problems - serious problems with players that aren't that firm when it comes to these quirks.

[TimeOfDeath666]

Even if SR50 is a bug:

1. it's a part of the game
2. many players use it
3. there are already maps that require it

[Lila Feuer]

I just tried out the door trick with a cyberdemon and the BFG in AV MAP22, it went very well! I'll have to remember that tactic.

[Creaphis]

I actually have started using SR50 in single-player, just to quickly get through areas of a level I've already cleared. I have my right mouse button bound to "strafe-on" and I reach SR50 by holding that button and sliding my mouse to the side (while also holding down two direction buttons). This feels natural as it's obvious that one shouldn't be able to both SR50 and turn at the same time with this setup.

For a while I was considering making a map that would actually require exploitation of every glitch and speedrunning trick I could think of, just in order to win. Maybe it's something I should still put together, for the three of us who'd be interested.

[Marcaek]

Creaphis said:

For a while I was considering making a map that would actually require exploitation of every glitch and speedrunning trick I could think of, just in order to win. Maybe it's something I should still put together, for the three of us who'd be interested.

I think TimeofDeath already did this.

[Superfly TNT]

Strafe Running

[Catoptromancy]

Normal strafe running (sr-40)is not an exploit. It is basic movement from standard control setup. SR-50 involving turning left while strafing right on top of holding the strafe-on key to lock the turn key from moving was not intended at all. It takes some time to get used to pressing WEF+mouse2 or SER+mouse2 just to move in a single direction.

I like to sr-50 mostly in empty rooms or when I really need to move somewhere as fast as possible or when I need a direct route. sr-40 is good tactics when you know monsters will appear at an angle, you are already aimed at them. Running forward and turning takes longer than just running.

And where is autorun? Always running in vanilla involved configuring the speed of a joystick that was not even plugged in(probably). Yes, always running in any direction without holding down a run key is an exploit.