Would you date someone who is transgendered?

[Csonicgo]

I blame My Little Pony for this.

[dew]

Csonicgo said:

I blame My Little Pony for this.

it's queerin up dem strait boys. also took owr jerbs.

[Craigs]

I honestly can't take transgender people seriously at all, especially those who are pre-op. A couple of days ago some students at my community college were hosting a transgender awareness today. There were two transvestites sitting at a table in the student center handing out bracelets and asking people to attend a transgender awareness lecture. When I passed by them I asked them if they had just considered, you know, wearing mens' clothing and not putting on makeup. They simply scowled at me and looked at me in disgust and then called me an intolerant asshole.

See, this is exactly why I can't take them seriously. This isn't something they can't help. They weren't born with womens' clothing fused to their skin and lipstick stuck to their faces. All they need to do is take off the makeup, put on some normal clothes, and bam, problem solved. They know that what they're doing is taboo. They know that it makes others uncomfortable. For fuck's sake, they even know that they have complete control over it. Yet they still shove their lifestyle in others' faces and practically scream "YES I WEAR WOMENS CLOTHING AND SHOVE BALLOONS DOWN MY SHIRT STOP ACTING LIKE ITS WEIRD!!!"

[Coraline]

@Craigs - some people are just loud like that, and some people deserve that kind of response, but not everyone's out to force it down your throat, though I get where you're coming from all the same.

I sometimes still feel awkward if I know other people are uncomfortable, which is why I don't flaunt and just act friendly. There's a difference with being tolerant with someone and having to "put up" with them, which is what it sounds like you're describing. Just like it is with everyone. Now, if I'm at a haven (club, etc), then yes, I'll drop it like it's hot. :)

After all, it should be about that person doing what they want in an intolerant society as "normal" as possible - if you're 'forcing' it on people, it's reversed. I hope I'm not being confusing here.

I personally wouldn't host or attend an awareness day, though. To me, that's asking for more attention that's needed for your situation - there's more acceptable ways than going about it loudly like that. I don't go out to get attention from people, almost 100% of the time it's opposite, I prefer if zero attention was paid to my presence so I can fit in as normal as possible. Some people like it the other way around.

[Technician]

Craigs said:

See, this is exactly why I can't take them seriously. This isn't something they can't help. They weren't born with womens' clothing fused to their skin and lipstick stuck to their faces. All they need to do is take off the makeup, put on some normal clothes, and bam, problem solved. They know that what they're doing is taboo. They know that it makes others uncomfortable. For fuck's sake, they even know that they have complete control over it. Yet they still shove their lifestyle in others' faces and practically scream "YES I WEAR WOMENS CLOTHING AND SHOVE BALLOONS DOWN MY SHIRT STOP ACTING LIKE ITS WEIRD!!!"

This is what I've been saying about homos for years. If only they'd repress their identity and marry into heterosexual relations. They know what they are doing is taboo. In doing this, I won't feel weirded out when I see them holding hands at the park. Yet they still shove their lifestyle in others' faces and practically scream "YES I WEAR BLACK LEATHER AND SHOVE COCKS UP MY ASS STOP ACTING LIKE ITS WEIRD!!!"

OK, in all seriousness, I can understand why it would be odd too see a man with makeup and balloon tits and still look at them with a sliver of dignity. I dislike flamers just as much as I dislike heterosexuals flaunting their sexuality at white-trash parody extremes in public, but don't judge by the sexual stereotypes. And don't think they should conform their sexuality to your social ideals because trans-gender, like homo/heterosexuality, is one's sexual identity. They can't cure it by acting normal. Their normal is different to what nature gave them.

[myk]

DoomUK said:
ITT it's becoming clear that Grain of Salt stands on a plateau of moral superiority, where only he's allowed to judge others for being judgemental or ignorant.

I started it. I suppose that if someone feels close to a lot of judgmental and ignorant people, and is psychologically more in tune with them rather than a conscious subject of their offenses, he or she may feel compromised in judging those faults.

Vordakk said:
Just because someone is creeped out by a certain group or isn't comfortable around them DOES NOT equate to treating them with hatred and intolerance. I'm betting that if PRIMEVAL were on a bus ride with a transgendered person, he wouldn't start a fistfight or ask them to get off the bus. He'd keep his opinions to himself and sit there.

It's definitely what tends toward bigotry. Its principle is fear or loathing of the perceived weirdness of the target group. And whether PRIMEVAL is "a bigot" in a categorizable way is not the same as pointing out a statement he made or impulse he had is bigoted. Saying "what you said is stupid" does not mean "you are a congenital and irreversible idiot". Someone who honestly does not like bigotry or discrimination will suggest not following any notions that suggest them, instead of condemning the person in a fundamental manner, which would itself be discriminatory. If you tend to think in those extreme standards, I am not surprised if you are intolerant and have dramatic knee jerk reactions when people express things alien to you.

As for judging what a person would or would not do in respect to bigoted tendencies, a good part of it depends on the environment. The problem is largely social. Fortunately, in many social environments people do not tolerate discrimination and abuse of types of people and this discourages individuals when they get circumstantial impulses, but if social circumstances deteriorate, what was a relatively harmless expression can become more perverse action.

fraggle said:
Call me a bigot, transphobic, or whatever, I don't really care.

I wouldn't, but maybe you could learn to read better.

Creaphis said:
However, there are evidently limits to this: the neural structures implicated by scientists as affecting/determining gender identity must be less changeable, or else transgendered individuals who try to live according to their birth sexes wouldn't be so unsuccessful.

I'd say the main limit is that we don't just change ourselves, we aren't that much in charge. We can make some guiding touches to change our position a bit under the circumstances that provide the impulses to do so, but can't get off the flowing river of our circumstances, which include a complex salad of genetics, the environment and the psychology of our peers.

It's much like when people wonder "if people ever change". They wonder whether they themselves or whoever will change "for the better". And yes, people change all the time but not by our conscious wishes. When our consciousness is an aspect of our existence, pretending it will rule it in any fundamental way is a mistake. Insisting on certain changes will produce alterations but the effects are often unexpected or even contradictory. Saying "no" to some trait or habit sometimes just makes it stronger, and this explains something that seems to make Craigs uneasy. In a world where people say "no" to "sexual deviations", affected people have a need to become more vocal and colorful about it as a shield against that "no" that does not help their welfare.

Craig's proposal is similar to that tendency for higher classed people to be judgmental about the morals of impoverished classes, ignoring the issues that erode their morality and judging them as if they were "normal" or as well-off as middle or upper class people. "These people should be left out of decision making and power positions because they are ignorant and criminal." To judge them that way you need to be blind to their experiences, through ignorance or interest, and it marginalizes them.

eargosedown said:
Michael Jackson was Michael Jackson. If he identified as a caucasian, and fit into society as a caucasian, I don't see much issue with considering him caucasian, although I don't think that was his intent. I'm not too up on his history though--According to wikipedia he suffered from Vitiligo and Lupus, and the treatments he used to stop the illness as well as makeup used evened out his complexion and caused him to be more white as he aged.

And if Michael had any intent to look white for prestige, which is not unheard of in non-white people trying to fit into the Western world, rubbing it to his face or making fun of him for it isn't very sensitive of the presence of social imperatives that paint white people as the coolest race.

[Vordakk]

myk said:

It's definitely what tends toward bigotry.

I smell a slippery slope fallacy coming on. Sounds as if you think PRIMEVAL is eventually going to cave in to his dark desires and start pummeling transgendered people in alleys.

We can only hope your beloved "government" discovers technology that can clean our deplorable thoughts and weed out all the hateful, biased ideas in our wicked heads. All negative thoughts must certainly lead to all negative actions, so we better nip the problem in the bud, right? You've already expressed that you're okay with government meddling in the PROTECT-IP thread, so why not have a full-blown nanny state where people's thoughts are severely limited, preventing them from making any "bad" decisions.

[Grain of Salt]

[esselfortium]

Vordakk said:

I smell a slippery slope fallacy coming on.

Ooh, ooh, me too!

*waits for it*

Vordakk said:

You've already expressed that you're okay with government meddling in the PROTECT-IP thread, so why not have a full-blown nanny state where people's thoughts are severely limited, preventing them from making any "bad" decisions.

There it is! :-D

[Csonicgo]

esselfortium said:

There it is! :-D

Vordakk just hanged himself with his own rope. Absolutely beautiful.

[Vordakk]

The quasi-facetious nature of the post was lost on you guys.

[Fletcher`]

Csonicgo said:

I blame My Little Pony for this.

For someone who hates MLP you sure do post a lot of pony links on #zdoom. HMM :V

[phobosdeimos1]

Vordakk said:

Sounds as if you think PRIMEVAL is eventually going to cave in to his dark desires and start pummeling transgendered people in alleys.

We can only hope your beloved "government" discovers technology that can clean our deplorable thoughts and weed out all the hateful, biased ideas in our wicked heads. All negative thoughts must certainly lead to all negative actions, so we better nip the problem in the bud, right?

I don't think he has realised his intolerant views are irrational, hurtful and dangerous, therefore it's possible he could act on them.

It would be a different story if he said "I know there's nothing wrong with them it's just a purely deep seeded dislike I have for anyone who has born in the wrong gender, therefore I never act on this illogical emotion, in fact I strive to go against it till it flutters into non-existance."

Essentially if you realise you're wrong but you still feel that underlying hate, you can overwhelm it with logic, such as I do with Asian people. Oooooh he can't say that.

I've seen how those 'impure' thoughts can definitely lead to the depersonalization of the targeted group, like how most soldiers in America *probably* get taught to think of Muslims as less than human in order to kill them mercilessley, vice versa with the Muslims being able to behead the Infidels like they're less than humans.

It's also possible PRIMEVAL is battling his own gender confusion and this thread is a constant reminder of that.

[Maes]

Vordakk said:

All negative thoughts must certainly lead to all negative actions, so we better nip the problem in the bud, right?

Right. Furthermore, our thoughts should be force-directed to match those of Good People with infinitely sane judgement and common sense, like e.g. G.W. Bush: former U.S. president, exemplary citizen, devout Christian, and Republican. Or Senator Joseph McCarthy's: Republican, Anti-Communist, A True Red Blooded American Patriot, ever-vigil vs the Red Scare which never rests. Totally unlike e.g. those anti-war hippies or OWS protesters!

Even better, give us all a spin or two through Bukowski's Gut-wringling machine in order to make us all Good Citizens and Good People, like George W. Bush. Then, since we'll all agree to the same stuff, it will just be Heaven on Earth!

[printz]

Going the other way, if I encountered a non-transgender crazy girl fully disguised as a guy and pretending to be such, I'd be creeped out. I find these highly unpredictable.

[PRIMEVAL]

phobosdeimos1 said:

I don't think he has realised his intolerant views are irrational, hurtful and dangerous, therefore it's possible he could act on them.

It would be a different story if he said "I know there's nothing wrong with them it's just a purely deep seeded dislike I have for anyone who has born in the wrong gender, therefore I never act on this illogical emotion, in fact I strive to go against it till it flutters into non-existance."

Essentially if you realise you're wrong but you still feel that underlying hate, you can overwhelm it with logic, such as I do with Asian people. Oooooh he can't say that.

I've seen how those 'impure' thoughts can definitely lead to the depersonalization of the targeted group, like how most soldiers in America *probably* get taught to think of Muslims as less than human in order to kill them mercilessley, vice versa with the Muslims being able to behead the Infidels like they're less than humans.

It's also possible PRIMEVAL is battling his own gender confusion and this thread is a constant reminder of that.

Because I said in the original post that I hate all transgenders and want to beat them all up. You caught me red handed! I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

Also, I'd make one hell of an ugly woman!

[dew]

yeah, well.. busted. now to the operation mobile! chop chop! don't worry, you'll feel better once there's no penis to obscure your true feelings... i gotta wonder though, is phobosdeimos a closeted asian in a white man's body?

[Phobus]

myk said:

...that paint white people as the coolest race.

I always thought it was black people who were stereotypically cool? Britain and America definitely have this as one of the options for stereotyping them anyway... the others all being much less positive.


All this stuff about transgenders being RIGHT IN YOUR FACE seems awfully similar to how my mum saw gay men back in the 60s-80s, whereby the only ones you knew about were flaming faggots who sought refuge in audacity. These days it seems like everybody and their dog is gay and most of them now have it as simply a sexuality rather than a lifestyle. The obvious difference there is that changing your gender IS a huge change to your lifestyle, but the similarity would be (as Craigs was sort of touching on) that they should really be changing to their preferred gender rather than turning into a "transgender person".

[yellowmadness54]

DoomUK said:

I'm not going to touch the topic at hand with a barge pole, but if you say:-

Then say:-

You're either lying to yourself, or it's an intense friendship and not a romantic relationship. Just saying.

If you are in a relationship for sex, its called lust. What you said is wrong, and from your bias, not fact. Just sayin.

[scalliano]

Craigs said:

When I passed by them I asked them if they had just considered, you know, wearing mens' clothing and not putting on makeup.

Christ on a unicycle, not that old chestnut ... "Haven't you tried not being gay/bi/trans/black/Jewish/Mexican?" Ask a silly question, expect a nasty look at the very least.

Granted, "raising awareness" runs the risk of having an adverse effect. At the end of it all, it's nobody's business how you live your life unless you make it their business. As for those who would cause harm to others who do not fit into what they would consider "normal", well, they just need to be eliminated anyway. After all, "normal" is purely a matter of opinion, an opinion that too many people make too much noise about.

It has been scientifically proven that the straight-cut concepts of "male" and "female" are no longer/never were applicable and that many sexual characteristics (including primary ones) are interchangeable. We're all wankers, get over it.

@OP: Only if she was nice.

[Creaphis]

I have a theory!

Some "flaming" transsexuals may dress the way they do as a reaction, or a form of protest. However, something that should be considered is that some male-to-female transsexuals may not have any experience with female fashion before transition, and when it comes time to adopt female dress they may accidentally over-feminize, thinking that dressing to match their gender identity means dressing like a scene girl.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Creaphis said:

I have a theory!

Some "flaming" transsexuals may dress the way they do as a reaction, or a form of protest. However, something that should be considered is that some male-to-female transsexuals may not have any experience with female fashion before transition, and when it comes time to adopt female dress they may accidentally over-feminize, thinking that dressing to match their gender identity means dressing like a scene girl.

The over-feminizing aspect definitely happens, and is sometimes even joked about by us. I've seen it first-hand where someone who obviously should not be wearing a mini-skirt, is wearing one. Later on as they got the hang of it, they started dressing normally.

My guess is that it is a combination of over-compensation for having suppressed themselves for so long, and simply not having experience. Others may treat it as a form of rebellion, or even just simple preference.

This over-compensation happens on the FtM side as well.

When I first started, I made sure to go shopping with friends until I got the hang of it because I was so afraid of over-compensating. Women's clothing sizes are confusing if you don't know how they work, and even some of the clothing you just stare at and wonder, "uhh... how do I put this on?" Knowing what's age-appropriate is also tough if you haven't really had the experience, at least in my opinion (maybe this is why I look like a "middle-school teacher who just changed into something a little bit more casual for book club"?)

[Craigs]

scalliano said:

Christ on a unicycle, not that old chestnut ... "Haven't you tried not being gay/bi/trans/black/Jewish/Mexican?" Ask a silly question, expect a nasty look at the very least.

You don't have a choice as to whether you want to be born mexican, jewish, black, gay etc. You do have a choice in terms of what kind of clothing you want. You can't just suddenly stop being black and suddenly be white, but you can easily ditch the womens' clothing and put on proper atire instead. This isn't that hard to understand.

[esselfortium]

You can easily stop having sex with men and get yourself married up like a good Christian boy, Craigs.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Craigs said:

you can easily ditch the womens' clothing and put on proper atire instead.

So women shouldn't wear women's clothing because it's not proper?

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

Craigs said:

You can't just suddenly stop being black and suddenly be white

[Vordakk]

scalliano said:

It has been scientifically proven that the straight-cut concepts of "male" and "female" are no longer/never were applicable and that many sexual characteristics (including primary ones) are interchangeable.

Care to cite the studies which "scientifically prove" this, pal?

[DoomUK]

yellowmadness54 said:

If you are in a relationship for sex, its called lust. What you said is wrong, and from your bias, not fact. Just sayin.

Allow me to expand on what I originally said and perhaps redeem myself.

Love is not a requisite of sex by any means; it's hard to consider all the people who engage in one night stands being "in love" with each other, exceptions notwithstanding. But it's foolish to say that sex, or at the very least sexual attraction is not a critical component of a romantic relationship.

Otherwise we might as well be talking about parental love or fraternal love or whatever. Romantic love is distinguished by a simple characteristic. Also note at this point we're not just talking about coitus; a female friend of mine once pointed out that a good kisser is virtually interchangeable with a guy (or girl) who's good in bed. So if you think of sex solely as a penis or substituted phallic object penetrating some orifice, you're missing out on things and narrowing down the definition of sex down too much.

Anyway, think of sex as part of a larger package that encompasses a number of different feelings and desires. Of course if someone cares nothing about the other person except what's in their pants, it's not love as we traditionally consider it. But there's nothing "shallow" about saying that you're in it for the sex if he or she is also a companion and a friend.

[Tango]

Craigs said:

You can't just suddenly stop being black and suddenly be white, but you can easily ditch the womens' clothing and put on proper atire instead. This isn't that hard to understand.

man are you serious? proper? who the hell are you to judge what is or isn't proper? you seem to be missing the whole point. they're not trying to conform to any pre-existing standards, because whatever standards there are now aren't necessarily especially tolerant (as proven by your post).

they're not trying to look "normal". they're not retards who have no fucking clue how to put on male jeans and a t-shirt. this isn't that hard to understand.

[dew]

while craigs used a rather stupid choice of words, i get what he (probably) means. i get terrified when i see fat chicks in tight revealing clothes showing a g-string riding up the tidal waves of skin. i'd react the same to an equivalent of hairy lumberjacks in bikinis or sumo fighters in sailor moon costumes not meant as a japanese show. there's hardly anything vaster than the variety of women's clothes and honey, when you don't have the figure, you shouldn't wear the miniskirt. when someone calls you an eyesore, it might not be bigotry or closemindedness, it might be the little child calling the emperor naked, so choose wisely.