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Armaetus

US Air Force dumped 250+ soldiers' ashes in VA landfill

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Craigs said:

might even piss off many islamic people!


So let me make sure I understand you. We have to walk on eggshells because "Islamic people" might get pissed off, after the leader of an extremist group(who doesn't even come close to representing your average, decent Muslim) killed over 3,000 Americans? How politically correct of you. I'm sure none of them would understand that the reason we don't like Osama bin Laden is because he was a mass murderer; they'll probably think it's because he was a Muslim, right?

Are you certain that you're not stupid?

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Vordakk said:

They should've pissed down the corpse's throat and then fed him to mongrel dogs. I don't recall Hitler getting a fancy burial after he gassed 6 million people.


You are a twisted, ghoulish piece of shit. The number of terrorists that that would spawn would be ludicrous. And for what? Some petty notion of justice? The guy's fucken dead, it's hard to go beyond that.

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Vordakk said:

Why were the remains of a mass murderer given any respect whatsoever? Why do we owe a terrorist a nice funeral?

Despite what he did, he belongs to his people. Do you really think it would've been a good idea to treat his body with anything less than the utmost respect when the middle east already hates us as it is? That way, they can say "Those damn Americans, interfering with our affairs. At least they treated Osama with respect when he died, we can give them that." as opposed to "Those damn Americans, interfering with our affairs, they even desecrated Osama's body, the fucking bastards!".

It's called PR, which you need all you can get when you're in a sticky situation like dealing with the middle east.

Vordakk said:

We have to walk on eggshells because "Islamic people" might get pissed off, after the leader of an extremist group(who doesn't even come close to representing your average, decent Muslim) killed over 3,000 Americans?

Yes, fucking dumbass! Do you even realize how bad things could've gotten if we fucked with his corpse? It's not about respect, it's about not triggering more violence and who knows what else.

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Vordakk said:

So let me make sure I understand you. We have to walk on eggshells because "Islamic people" might get pissed off, after the leader of an extremist group(who doesn't even come close to representing your average, decent Muslim) killed over 3,000 Americans?


see

Mr. Freeze said:

You are a twisted, ghoulish piece of shit. The number of terrorists that that would spawn would be ludicrous. And for what? Some petty notion of justice? The guy's fucken dead, it's hard to go beyond that.

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Considering the Middle East has kids who lived through ten years of American/Al-Qaeda hell, I'm surprised more terrorists haven't sprouted up yet.

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Sodaholic said:

Despite what he did, he belongs to his people.


So is that why Saudi Arabia(bin Laden was a Saudi national) was totally unwilling to have his remains repatriated?

Sodaholic said:

The number of terrorists that that would spawn would be ludicrous.


The idea that terrorists are "spawned" like in a Serious Sam game is what's ludicrous. Terrorists are gonna hate us no matter what. The stronger we are, the less likely they are to mess with us. Treating a mass murderer with any respect at all is fucking weak.

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Vordakk said:

So is that why Saudi Arabia(bin Laden was a Saudi national) was totally unwilling to have his remains repatriated?

Just because a nation is trying to save face and avoid a bullet, that doesn't mean citizens can't hold a man-killer in high regard.

The idea that terrorists are "spawned" like in a Serious Sam game is what's ludicrous. Terrorists are gonna hate us no matter what.

I can't believe this. People usually don't hate people for no good reasons, even if said reason is rational or just. The Western-Middle East confrontation has been going on for generations and it has produced many war children with a belly full of hate.

The stronger we are, the less likely they are to mess with us. Treating a mass murderer with any respect at all is fucking weak.

Showing disrespect for your fallen enemy does not show strength. Showing the world it's the civilized man, does.

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What someone did during their life does not matter when it reaches that point. Everyone is entitled to a proper burial, done respectively. That's it. End of story.

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.

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Vordakk said:

So is that why Saudi Arabia(bin Laden was a Saudi national) was totally unwilling to have his remains repatriated?



The idea that terrorists are "spawned" like in a Serious Sam game is what's ludicrous. Terrorists are gonna hate us no matter what. The stronger we are, the less likely they are to mess with us. Treating a mass murderer with any respect at all is fucking weak.


Being "strong" is what pisses them off the the first place. You're basically advocating a self-perpetuating cycle. If we stop nosing into everybody's business and try to be "strong" by building advanced weapon systems or whatever, then people are going to be more willing to work with us. Russia is pretty much a perfect example of this. I've read before that they'd be much more open to working with the US if we stopped trying to be the world police and cut bullshit like anti-missile systems in Eastern Europe.

Also, the reason why Osama's body was buried like it was so that it wouldn't piss off potential terrorists and make them the real deal. One of the big recruitment factors for the foreign fighters in Iraq was Abu-Gharib, and that was because we were disrespecting them and trying to be "strong" at the same time.

International politics isn't some video game where you can totally dominate if you have the strongest weapons, ignore advice and have the best tactics. Doing that type of stuff has real consequences besides "lol were the best".

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Sig-ma said:

What someone did during their life does not matter when it reaches that point.


I'm pretty sure it does matter. Why don't you try telling that to the families of the people who were killed on 9/11? Osama bin Laden's actions still matter because those people are still dead and can't be brought back, so even in death he still doesn't deserve respect.

Sig-ma said:

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.


TRANSLATION: A long time ago God told me that my belief system is the correct one, so if yours doesn't mirror mine, you're wrong.

Iron-clad and irrefutable.

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Vordakk said:

I'm pretty sure it does matter. Why don't you try telling that to the families of the people who were killed on 9/11? Osama bin Laden's actions still matter because those people are still dead and can't be brought back, so even in death he still doesn't deserve respect.


Apparently the 9/11 families have never moved on from 9/11 and need infantile justice in order to close the book on that day.

TRANSLATION: A long time ago God told me that my belief system is the correct one, so if yours doesn't mirror mine, you're wrong.

Iron-clad and irrefutable.


What the hell? This has absolutely nothing to do with God.

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Vordakk said:

It's a dark day when fallen heroes' remains are thrown in a landfill, but a man who murdered thousands of innocent people(Bin Laden) had his remains ritually buried at sea in accordance with Islamic tradition...by our own military.

I'm Rick Perry and I approve this message.

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Vordakk, what you're suggesting that America should've done would have caused major conflict and potentially more violence. It doesn't fucking matter what he did, the point is, we were not stooping down to their level of how to treat the corpse.

Just try to see it from the perspective of the people in the middle east who supported him, even though you don't agree with it.

Fuck it, why am I even bothering? You've demonstrated time and time again that you're too stubborn and arrogant to move from your conservative based "America is the best! Let's show the world who's boss!" attitude.

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Is it wrong of me to suddenly have respect for Bin Laden because Vordakk doesn't? What a strange effect he has on people.

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Use3D said:

Is it wrong of me to suddenly have respect for Bin Laden because Vordakk doesn't? What a strange effect he has on people.


Spite is a powerful thing.

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Sig-ma said:

What someone did during their life does not matter when it reaches that point. Everyone is entitled to a proper burial, done respectively. That's it. End of story.

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.

Everyone is entitled to a fair trial as well (Article 10 of the Declaration of Human Rights). Nobody seems to care that Bin Laden was denied that.

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fraggle said:

Everyone is entitled to a fair trial as well (Article 10 of the Declaration of Human Rights). Nobody seems to care that Bin Laden was denied that.

I'm more concerned with some of the folks rotting away in Guantanamo Bay that haven't had a trial.

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Technician said:

I'm more concerned with some of the folks rotting away in Guantanamo Bay that haven't had a trial.


Um, America does whatever the fuck it wants, where have you been?

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Sodaholic said:

you're too stubborn and arrogant to move from your conservative based "America is the best! Let's show the world who's boss!" attitude.


Well to be fair, I'd also be in favor of the same treatment being applied to American leaders who've been responsible for the deaths of innocent foreigners.

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Vordakk said:

I'm pretty sure it does matter. Why don't you try telling that to the families of the people who were killed on 9/11? Osama bin Laden's actions still matter because those people are still dead and can't be brought back, so even in death he still doesn't deserve respect.


No, it really fucking doesn't. Desecrating his corpse would have provided those families with absolutely nothing. The people who lost their lives are still gone and nothing is going to change that. All it would have done is piss off people all over the world and only the sick and demented would have gotten any satisfaction from it.

Even if Bin Laden had personally planned and executed the September 11th attacks in a psychotic rage with absolutely no reason to conceivably do so, it still doesn't warrant desecrating his corpse. While we portrayed him as devil-incarnate, there were still people who respected him and in death, none of us can quantify his life, experiences and whatever else. While what he did during his life is still unacceptable, we don't illustrate ourselves being even the slightest better by shitting all over his corpse.

Vordakk said:

TRANSLATION: A long time ago God told me that my belief system is the correct one, so if yours doesn't mirror mine, you're wrong.

Iron-clad and irrefutable.


This has nothing to do with god. People are people and killing is killing, regardless of reason. While some may like to classify various acts as either white or black, they rarely are. There are reasons for the way people behave and for what they do. Even the scum of the earth deserve a proper burial. Death is an inevitable fact of life and any civilized nation or decent human being should recognize that and make an example of it for which the rest of the world should exist by. It doesn't matter if it is Bin Laden in our hands or an American soldier in Al-Qaeda's hands.

This landfill nonsense is absolutely appalling.

(While not your assertion, surely, I don't remotely believe in god. I dare say I am the fiercest atheist here or that you will ever know.)

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Vordakk said:

It's a dark day when fallen heroes' remains are thrown in a landfill, but a man who murdered thousands of innocent people(Bin Laden) had his remains ritually buried at sea in accordance with Islamic tradition...by our own military.

Oh no sir, we did the killing before Osama did.

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How did this get off-topic that went to Bin Laden and 9/11? It has nothing to do with what some assholes in the USAF did to dead soldiers' remains.

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The guy who rants at us about the evils of big government wants to have government workers routinely piss on corpses? If you want to have things like respect for the dead, free speech, due process, etc. then you must always have those things. There must be no rule or procedure permitting anything different because members of the government will exploit them. This goes for any organization.

Justice as most people seem to understand it is a joke. There is no deterrent for crimes of passion and religious insanity. People willing to murder are just going to do it despite any risk. The function of a justice system should therefore be to make sure they don't do it again, which will usually involve locking them up or killing them in attempting the act. Killing afterwards them won't work because then you have a system with infrastructure for killing innocents.

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Aliotroph? said:

Killing afterwards them won't work because then you have a system with infrastructure for killing innocents.

I'm Rick Perry and I do not approve this message.

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Aliotroph? said:

Justice as most people seem to understand it is a joke. There is no deterrent for crimes of passion and religious insanity. People willing to murder are just going to do it despite any risk. The function of a justice system should therefore be to make sure they don't do it again, which will usually involve locking them up or killing them in attempting the act. Killing afterwards them won't work because then you have a system with infrastructure for killing innocents.


Completely agreed. Childish "justice" like the one he's proposing is just bullshit meant to make us feel powerful in the face of crimes that make us upset. Truth is, that type of "justice" doesn't deter people from committing crimes and may even spur them to do more. Unfortunately, a lot of Americans genuinely think that slaughtering criminals for even the smallest crimes is a good idea.

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Sig-ma said:

This has nothing to do with god.


The point I was making was that in order for you to believe that your belief system is "the correct one" and that mine is "fundamentally flawed", you must believe in a universal set of rules that govern what's right and wrong that's completely objective and in no way subjective. Traditionally, people who believe that such a thing exists also believe that a supreme being handed down that set of rules.

If you're truly an athiest, as you claim to be, then your versions of right and wrong are just that, yours alone. They are neither correct or incorrect. Likewise, neither are mine. Everything is subjective at that point, because no supreme being has set forth a compass that points to what must be good and what must be evil.

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Vordakk said:

The point I was making was that in order for you to believe that your belief system is "the correct one" and that mine is "fundamentally flawed", you must believe in a universal set of rules that govern what's right and wrong that's completely objective and in no way subjective. Traditionally, people who believe that such a thing exists also believe that a supreme being handed down that set of rules.

If you're truly an athiest, as you claim to be, then your versions of right and wrong are just that, yours alone. They are neither correct or incorrect. Likewise, neither are mine. Everything is subjective at that point, because no supreme being has set forth a compass that points to what must be good and what must be evil.


I'll give you a little hint: There are things called "standards" or "human decency" that pretty much everyone on Earth has. You know, things like "treating others with respect", "don't steal" and "be nice"? Those are established by societies across the world. Wouldn't that mean your culture has established the difference between good and evil? Kinda throws your "religion is the only thing that defines good and evil" out the window.

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Sig-ma said:

What someone did during their life does not matter when it reaches that point. Everyone is entitled to a proper burial, done respectively. That's it. End of story.

No, that's not it. It's not the end of the story. You haven't explained how or why anyone is "entitled" to a "proper" burial done "respectively".

Sig-ma said:

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.

Nice. Now if anyone disagrees with you, they clearly have "fundamental flaws" with their belief system. Your arguments are totally undefeatable, now! You have no weakness!

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Darkman 4 said:

I'll give you a little hint: There are things called "standards" or "human decency" that pretty much everyone on Earth has.


"Pretty much" everyone? That still leaves wiggle room. And since you can't judge which standards are correct by how many people adhere to them, we're firmly back to my point. Even if I was somehow the only person who thought it'd be swell to desecrate Osama's corpse, if no higher absolute authority had decreed that my view was wrong, then it would be equally as "right" as everyone else's view.

You and I may feel as though "be nice" and "don't steal" are good values, but unless there's a genuine proof of the legitimacy of those values, then who's to say we're all wrong.

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Vordakk said:

Well to be fair, I'd also be in favor of the same treatment being applied to American leaders who've been responsible for the deaths of innocent foreigners.


Yeah fuck the american leaders. They don't even piss down the foreigners' throats and then feed them to mongrel dogs

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