Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Armaetus

US Air Force dumped 250+ soldiers' ashes in VA landfill

Recommended Posts

Vordakk said:

"Pretty much" everyone? That still leaves wiggle room. And since you can't judge which standards are correct by how many people adhere to them, we're firmly back to my point. Even if I was somehow the only person who thought it'd be swell to desecrate Osama's corpse, if no higher absolute authority had decreed that my view was wrong, then it would be equally as "right" as everyone else's view.

You and I may feel as though "be nice" and "don't steal" are good values, but unless there's a genuine proof of the legitimacy of those values, then who's to say we're all wrong.

I'm sorry, but why are you arguing semantics when it comes to defiling a human body, religion or not? Yeah, whether a person hold positive values to fucking up a corpse, it's still looked down upon by the majority, just as you have seen it as disgusting to dump human ashes in a dump. Why does Osama's body have less of a right to be treated with respect than a soldiers? Because you find one more noble than the other? How about that charred American that the people of Iraq beat and strung up to the public, his body is of lesser value than what you put on it. In fact, he was seen as the enemy.

How about we hold similar values for the dead? This way we don't anger others. You can't punish a corpse, and doing gross things to it is not civilized.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

"Pretty much" everyone? That still leaves wiggle room. And since you can't judge which standards are correct by how many people adhere to them, we're firmly back to my point. Even if I was somehow the only person who thought it'd be swell to desecrate Osama's corpse, if no higher absolute authority had decreed that my view was wrong, then it would be equally as "right" as everyone else's view.

You and I may feel as though "be nice" and "don't steal" are good values, but unless there's a genuine proof of the legitimacy of those values, then who's to say we're all wrong.


Are you trying to argue that there aren't some form of universal morals that aren't mandated by a religion? Do you really think that things like "don't steal", "don't murder" and "be nice" are genuinely subjective? Shit, those are the foundations of any sort of society, no matter how small they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

You and I may feel as though "be nice" and "don't steal" are good values, but unless there's a genuine proof of the legitimacy of those values, then who's to say we're all wrong.


Whoosh! You really don't understand this, do you? People all over the planet believe differently, live in different environments, have different reasons for waking up in the morning and different reasons for doing what they do in their life. None of that matters. Funerals are done for the living, in recognition of the person deceased. What the deceased personally did in their life is not representative of what a funeral provides.

I've participated in several funerals for friends which were complete bullshit and barely celebrated what the person believed or actually stood for. While people who sincerely loved, respected or liked the deceased would prefer a funeral done in recognition of what the person believed, it is not the point. The point is to establish closure and recognition of death. This is the ultimate and final end and in providing that closure properly and respectively, you're demonstrating you're at least a half-way decent fucking human being.

As I said, if you feel differently, to such extents you feel like desecrating a corpse, you're not proving anything other than there is something fundamentally wrong with your belief system. You're not righting wrongs done nor are you insulting the dead person personally, since they're dead. You achieve nothing, other than proving you're an asshole or worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Darkman 4 said:

Are you trying to argue that there aren't some form of universal morals that aren't mandated by a religion? Do you really think that things like "don't steal", "don't murder" and "be nice" are genuinely subjective? Shit, those are the foundations of any sort of society, no matter how small they are.


Be that as it may, you and I are still unable to prove that they are the "one correct way".

Ever read fiction? How about the Drow race from Dungeons and Dragons? Their society's code of ethics is in almost total opposition to ours. But because in real life there's no Monster Manual to call a person "Chaotic Evil" and another person "Lawful Good", how can you say you know which is which, and how can you claim to know which is the correct one?

Technician said:

Why does Osama's body have less of a right to be treated with respect than a soldiers?


Because Osama killed innocent people, not enemy combatants, without even being under orders to do so. A soldier only kills enemy combatants, and usually must be given orders before he can pull the trigger. Duh. As you people so conveniently ignored, I did say that I'd extend my treatment of Osama to a murderous American leader who butchered innocent foreigners as well.

Sig-ma said:

if you feel differently, to such extents you feel like desecrating a corpse, you're not proving anything other than there is something fundamentally wrong with your belief system.


There you go again. So did your non-existent God whisper in your ear the proof that my belief system was fundamentally wrong, or do you think you're God and can pass judgement on which belief systems are credible?

Share this post


Link to post
Sig-ma said:

You're not righting wrongs done nor are you insulting the dead person personally, since they're dead. You achieve nothing, other than proving you're an asshole or worse.

In what way are they an asshole? They're obviously not insulting the dead, as you said yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

There you go again. So did your non-existent God whisper in your ear the proof that my belief system was fundamentally wrong, or do you think you're God and can pass judgement on which belief systems are credible?


Stop. Think.

If you were to die tomorrow, I showed up to your funeral and desecrated your corpse, how would your friends and family feel? I could have a million reasons for doing so; petty, terrible, minor or even perfectly legitimate reasons (within my own mind) for doing so but does it fucking matter? You are dead. You cannot possibly find it insulting.

Respectful burials and funerals are done for the living, not the deceased.

crashhelper said:

In what way are they an asshole? They're obviously not insulting the dead, as you said yourself.


Obviously, a deceased person has no way of calling you an asshole. The rest of the world? Yeah, pretty sure most people (even those who condemn everything Bin Laden did), would. Defiling a corpse or showing the deceased absolutely no respect (such as this landfill nonsense), is abhorrent, provides no closure (beyond the event of death itself) or reconciliation for what the dead did during their lifetime. You're only illustrating that there is something wrong with you (as defined by any half-way decent person-- nevermind society).

I don't know what fucked up society you or Vordakk may be from but I'm confident that in most of the world, they wouldn't see it as proper or respectful if only for the simple reason you did it in spite or because you're demented.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

Be that as it may, you and I are still unable to prove that they are the "one correct way".

Ever read fiction? How about the Drow race from Dungeons and Dragons? Their society's code of ethics is in almost total opposition to ours. But because in real life there's no Monster Manual to call a person "Chaotic Evil" and another person "Lawful Good", how can you say you know which is which, and how can you claim to know which is the correct one?


Are you seriously using fictional characters to prove your point? I'm talking about the real world, not books, RPGs, cartoons, comics, or anything like that. They're called fictional characters for a reason; they don't exist and shouldn't have any impact on how we view things like morals. The Drow are little more than some dumb Bizzaro-world elves with a dash of "ugh woman always make things bad", not some point that morals are always subjective.

I'm not trying to say there's a "correct way", I'm trying to point out that there are some rules that every damn culture has regarding what's good and what's bad. Without those rules, societies would collapse in a heartbeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Sig-ma said:

Stop. Think.


You're still unable to prove why your belief system is good and mine is bad, objectively that is. You ask, "does it fucking matter?"(referring to you desecrating my corpse). Well, what does matter? If there's no God at all, then what really matters is all utterly subjective anyways.

I get a big laugh when I see a self-proclaimed atheist arguing for "respecting the dead". Haha! If someone died tomorrow, and you pissed on him, according to your world view why would it matter at all? Wouldn't matter to him obviously, but by atheist logic it also shouldn't matter to his loved ones either, because his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence. Since he's no longer around in any form, peeing on him would be like peeing on a rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Sig-ma said:

Obviously, a deceased person has no way of calling you an asshole. The rest of the world? Yeah, pretty sure most people (even those who condemn everything Bin Laden did), would.

But that's subjective. Whether most people would or would not consider that to be an asshole move is irrelevant.

Sig-ma said:

Defiling a corpse or showing the deceased absolutely no respect (such as this landfill nonsense), is abhorrent

That's subjective again.

Sig-ma said:

You're only illustrating that there is something wrong with you (as defined by any half-way decent person-- nevermind society).

So? What does that have to do with anything? There's something wrong with me because most people would hold that opinion? That's just silly.

Sig-ma said:

I don't know what fucked up society you or Vordakk may be from but I'm confident that in most of the world, they wouldn't see it as proper or respectful if only for the simple reason you did it in spite or because you're demented.

Whether most people would consider it that way or not is irrelevant. Morals are still subjective. My actions are not "less right" simply because more people believe they are wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

You ask, "does it fucking matter?"(referring to you desecrating my corpse). Well, what does matter? If there's no God at all, then what really matters is all utterly subjective anyways.

Everything defined by God is subjective. God has commanded in some cases to rape and kill in masses.

Share this post


Link to post
Technician said:

God has commanded in some cases to rape and kill in masses.


I'm downloading the Kama Sutra megawad right now for this purpose!

Share this post


Link to post
crashhelper said:

Whether most people would consider it that way or not is irrelevant. Morals are still subjective. My actions are not "less right" simply because more people believe they are wrong.


So I guess murdering random people and stealing from a store is a-okay because thinking it's bad is subjective. Those assholes putting you in jail for those crimes are trying to force their subjective morality on you!

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

I get a big laugh when I see a self-proclaimed atheist arguing for "respecting the dead". Haha! If someone died tomorrow, and you pissed on him, according to your world view why would it matter at all? Wouldn't matter to him obviously, but by atheist logic it also shouldn't matter to his loved ones either, because his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence. Since he's no longer around in any form, peeing on him would be like peeing on a rock.

Are... Are you really this fucking stupid?

Being an atheist has no bearing on one's ethics. I don't even see how you can make that assumption. You can be an atheist and still believe as a human being with moral standards that any corpse, no matter what they've done in their life, should be treated with even some respect.

Osama having done what he did has NO FUCKING BEARING WHATSOEVER to how he should be treated in death, and your reasons for desecrating his body are childish and sick.



EDIT: Removed the image, but my point still stands. Vordakk is the biggest idiot of the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

You ask, "does it fucking matter?"(referring to you desecrating my corpse). Well, what does matter? If there's no God at all, then what really matters is all utterly subjective anyways.


I already explained that. You're probably going to have to read my post again (and again [and again]) before you understand it.

I will provide a hint, however. The soldiers who had their remains dumped in the landfill have no way of caring-- yet, this is still a massive issue and seen as completely despicable. Why do you think that is?

There is no way for most of us (or any of the people) decrying the act of knowing definitely how many people any of these soldiers personally killed, much less if they possibly killed civilians or abused their power. The United States killed a lot of civilians in the Middle East-- reasons or intention is not relevant. That is obviously not the issue.

EDIT:

Vordakk said:

I get a big laugh when I see a self-proclaimed atheist arguing for "respecting the dead". Haha! If someone died tomorrow, and you pissed on him, according to your world view why would it matter at all? Wouldn't matter to him obviously, but by atheist logic it also shouldn't matter to his loved ones either, because his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence. Since he's no longer around in any form, peeing on him would be like peeing on a rock.


Why is that funny to you? An atheist can't respect life or acknowledge the wishes, beliefs or views of people who believe differently?

You really do not understand, do you?

@crashhelper

Debate for debate sake is fine by me but please actually think about what you're saying. Likewise, being an asshole for asshole sake is not going to grant you any favors. While "being an asshole" is obviously subjective, the proper way of conducting oneself has long been established by society.

If you walk into work tomorrow and punch a co-worker in the face, regardless of reason, you have a good idea of how people will react.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

I get a big laugh when I see a self-proclaimed atheist arguing for "respecting the dead". Haha! If someone died tomorrow, and you pissed on him, according to your world view why would it matter at all? Wouldn't matter to him obviously, but by atheist logic it also shouldn't matter to his loved ones either, because his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence. Since he's no longer around in any form, peeing on him would be like peeing on a rock.

OK, I've been civil, but you're an ignorant fool. Now you're building fallacies from bullshit.

Sodaholic said:

Are... Are you really this fucking stupid?

Being an atheist has no bearing on one's ethics. I don't even see how you can make that assumption. You can be an atheist and still believe as a human being with moral standards that any corpse, no matter what they've done in their life, should be treated with even some respect.

Osama having done what he did has NO FUCKING BEARING WHATSOEVER to how he should be treated in death, and your reasons for desecrating his body are childish and sick.

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Sig-ma said:

Debate for debate sake is fine by me but please actually think about what you're saying.

I wouldn't even be debating this if it weren't for you saying "Oh yeah, by the way, if you disagree with my opinions, then your views are stupid and stinky and you're a bad person!" here:

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.

here:

any civilized nation or decent human being should recognize that

here:

you're demonstrating you're at least a half-way decent fucking human being.

here:

As I said, if you feel differently, to such extents you feel like desecrating a corpse, you're not proving anything other than there is something fundamentally wrong with your belief system.

and here:

I don't know what fucked up society you or Vordakk may be from

Share this post


Link to post

This is insane. crashhelper, the point Sig-ma is trying to make isn't "if you disagree with me then you suck", it's that he's pointing out that what he's saying is commonly accepted as moral standards around the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Sodaholic said:

Being an atheist has no bearing on one's ethics.


Sorry, but it does. You can name-call all you want to, and make cute pics all you want to, but most debates between atheists and theists return to a metaethical question: what is the basis or grounding for ethics in the first place?

Since, for the atheist, there is no God, there cannot be a higher law. Therefore, atheists subject themselves to "natural law". But who decides that? You? Hardly. Me? Nope. Atheists would say that objective ethics are obtained by observing the consequences of actions for real people in this world. So if I want person X to be my friend, I'll be nice to them. But even John B. Hodges in his "Atheist Foundations of Ethics" concedes that although some codes of ethics will be wildly popular, "there is no logical or cosmic necessity that they be adopted by everyone". My code of ethics could be to make enemies and take advantage of everyone, and if I'm strong enough, I could continue in this way for a long while. So if that system works for me, then those are my objective ethics, even if they are in the minority. Since there's no cosmic necessity that I adopt your ethics, mine are just as relevant and just as correct.

So in summary, an atheist who believes that corpses ought to be given respect can believe that all he wants, but he is in NO position to enforce his ethics on someone else since there's no higher law to back up his assertion that his view is the correct one. So when Sig-ma tells me my belief systems are fundamentally flawed, he's either talking out of his ass or he really does believe in a higher power.

Time for bed, Sodaholic. Your little brain has been taxed greatly today. Tomorrow you can make more cute pics in MS Paint.

Share this post


Link to post
Sodaholic said:

This is insane. crashhelper, the point Sig-ma is trying to make isn't "if you disagree with me then you suck", it's that he's pointing out that what he's saying is commonly accepted as moral standards around the world.

If you cannot wrap your head around this or conceive reasons why this should be so, you seriously need to re-evaluate everything you believe because there are likely some fundamental flaws with your belief system. I'm sorry.

Yeah, that totally sounds like "These moral standards are widely accepted." and not "You're wrong and you need to reevaluate everything you believe."

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

Sorry, but it does.

Holy shit, you're more retarded than I thought. Let me spell this out for you.

An atheistic individual has the free will to choose his own code of ethics, any set of ethics he pleases. An atheist's basis for his ethics are what he picks and chooses, end of.

What you were implying is that being an atheist automatically makes one have zero respect for the dead due to their logic process. This is simply not true, morality does not work like that.

Just because an atheist individual may believe that "his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence", that doesn't mean he automatically is unable to choose to have respect for it anyway.


My main point is, one's beliefs on the subject the existence of a god DOES NOT, and I repeat DOES NOT, have ANY bearing on what they choose to believe in the subject of ethics.


Vordakk said:

Your little brain has been taxed greatly today.

To be honest I don't know how much more of your stupidity I can take, it's confused me greatly how anyone such as yourself can display such an amazing amount of ignorance and logical fallacy in regards to how one's beliefs in unrelated areas automatically dictate the other.

Share this post


Link to post
crashhelper said:

Yeah, that totally sounds like "These moral standards are widely accepted." and not "You're wrong and you need to reevaluate everything you believe."


While my words were certainly strong, I think you're putting too much emphasis on a statement made in exclamation while ignoring the point I was actually making.

I cannot conceive nor imagine a situation were desecrating a corpse is acceptable behavior when done in spite or gross negligence. Even bitter enemies or nations involved in deeply personal and raging, hate fueled wars generally observed the wishes of the opposing nation when it came to the deceased, short of machinations of barbaric nature. In context, as many people have already said, desecrating Bin Laden's corpse would have not only been extremely damaging and counter-productive to our entire war effort but many of our own citizens would have found it disrespectful.

Many of the most heinous acts humankind has ever demonstrated are those done revolving the deceased. The treatment of the deceased does not matter as much as the perception of their treatment according to the living. This is why people who donate their own corpses to science are not strictly seen in poor light but in the case of spitefully desecrating a corpse, such as how Vordakk proclaimed Bin Laden's corpse should have been treated, is just despicable.

Vordakk said:

Sorry, but it does. You can name-call all you want to, and make cute pics all you want to, but most debates between atheists and theists return to a metaethical question: what is the basis or grounding for ethics in the first place?

Since, for the atheist, there is no God, there cannot be a higher law. Therefore, atheists subject themselves to "natural law". But who decides that? You? Hardly. Me? Nope. Atheists would say that objective ethics are obtained by observing the consequences of actions for real people in this world. So if I want person X to be my friend, I'll be nice to them. But even John B. Hodges in his "Atheist Foundations of Ethics" concedes that although some codes of ethics will be wildly popular, "there is no logical or cosmic necessity that they be adopted by everyone". My code of ethics could be to make enemies and take advantage of everyone, and if I'm strong enough, I could continue in this way for a long while. So if that system works for me, then those are my objective ethics, even if they are in the minority. Since there's no cosmic necessity that I adopt your ethics, mine are just as relevant and just as correct.

So in summary, an atheist who believes that corpses ought to be given respect can believe that all he wants, but he is in NO position to enforce his ethics on someone else since there's no higher law to back up his assertion that his view is the correct one. So when Sig-ma tells me my belief systems are fundamentally flawed, he's either talking out of his ass or he really does believe in a higher power.


Wrong. People can be atheist for any variety of reasons and personal belief systems are very much subjective. Even so, most people, regardless of what they believe in regard to spirituality or religion, are dictated by their existence and their belief system is built around it. Part of the reason I am atheist is because I do not believe in altruistic causes for death nor do I see them as justification for whatever events conspire due to such and I recognize that when my life is over, it is really over. I am not going to heaven, there is no golden chalice in the sky, whatever.

Even so, as a basis of ethics, I ultimately used the fact that I deeply respect people (whatever that includes) and life itself, to support my atheist belief system, not the other way around. In the grand scheme of things and the theorized time-frame it took for the universe, our galaxy, Earth and finally, life to form-- my mere seventy years alive are nothing, relatively. My time is not even worth a mere drop water in the Pacific ocean. Death is finality and because I respect life, I willfully acknowledge, recognize and respect the right of the living to have closure to someone that is deceased.

Again and again, funerals or burials are not performed for the deceased, they're done for the living. Deceased people have absolutely no way of appreciating a funeral or caring at all with what becomes of them.

Share this post


Link to post

@Sodaholic

All of your arguments are completely incorrect. Here's why: Hillbilly Mutt 20 is now an existentialist Armageddon.

That proves not only that all of your arguments are the absolute 100% garbageness this minuteness, but that you're an ignoramus of the highest caliber.

Atheists can't care about something like that because they don't believe in a higher power! Anyone who says otherwise is a token loli. And token lolis... need censorship.

Share this post


Link to post
AhScrump said:

All of your arguments are completely incorrect. Here's why: Hillbilly Mutt 20 is now an existentialist Armageddon.

...And that's when I stopped reading in favor of assuming the poster is a complete moron.

Share this post


Link to post

AhScrump is obviously a sockpuppet/troll account.

Vordakk said:

It's a dark day when fallen heroes' remains are thrown in a landfill, but a man who murdered thousands of innocent people(Bin Laden) had his remains ritually buried at sea in accordance with Islamic tradition...by our own military.

Agreed - that's no way to treat the remains of servicemen who died in the line of duty and I'd expect someone to be held accountable. As for Bin Laden - they could have buried him anywhere, but consigning his body to the deep means there's no gravesite for jihadists to turn into a martyr's shrine.

Share this post


Link to post
Vordakk said:

You're still unable to prove why your belief system is good and mine is bad, objectively that is. You ask, "does it fucking matter?"(referring to you desecrating my corpse). Well, what does matter? If there's no God at all, then what really matters is all utterly subjective anyways.

I get a big laugh when I see a self-proclaimed atheist arguing for "respecting the dead". Haha! If someone died tomorrow, and you pissed on him, according to your world view why would it matter at all? Wouldn't matter to him obviously, but by atheist logic it also shouldn't matter to his loved ones either, because his body(in its living form) wasn't the vessel that harbored his essence, his live body was his essence. Since he's no longer around in any form, peeing on him would be like peeing on a rock.


Regardless of personal beliefs, you have to have a basic understanding of human psychology to understand the problem. Even if I do not believe that the human body carries any essence, I know that a great majority of the human population believes that it does. While desecrating a body may not particularly offend me, I know that it would be a quick way to make enemies of a great amount of people. And for what? To satisfy the few who have a fascination in mutilating a corpse? The cons greatly outweigh the pros.

Not that it matters. I have determined that you tend to ignore everything you can't refute, and severely misconstrue the rest.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×