Slaughterfest 2012 - NEW Final Final Version is up

NGTribute - FDA - What the frack? Yeah, sure, it was totally like Newgothic, except sucked out of everything that made NG awesome and the only thing left was somewhat newgothic resembling midi. There wasn't even a trace of fluid AB's gameplay. It's tedium mixed with halfdecent attempts for witty traps, like getting locked in with a bunch of AVs without a way to dodge them in case you didn't take them out from far before. The blue&red door fight was a pinnacle of stupidity though, leaving almost no room to react unless you already know the map, or something, even though it looks more like it actually leaves close to zero survival chances anyway. Even if it's beatable, it still remains bad. I don't know what's after that nor do I intend to find out.

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Phml said:

Slaughterfest maps should be playtested in PrBoom+, this is the target port. Other ports may use different rules resulting in balance and gameplay issues.

For example, with ZDoom, even setting compatibility to Boom, disabling mouselook, turning on infinitelytall actors and removing the blockmap fix, monsters still move differently - more freely, able to fit in spaces of their exact width or height, which isn't possible in Boom.


True enough, I'm in the process of retexturing the map now. It's going to be a little less pretty to look at but oh well. Found a couple little things that needed fixing anyway. I will upload the finished map when I've finished. ETA:Tomorrow sometime..

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Great idea j4rio. I'll start playing once I get home to my pc.

You can load many resources with prboom+. You type something like this in the .bat: ...-iwad doom2.wad -pwad cc4-tex.wad q1tex.wad ngtribute.wad -record...

That's how I remeber it anyway. It was hella easy anyway so you'll figure it out. I'm not at a pc with doom right now so I can't give you the exact command.

edit: oh. I played war to end all wars the other day. All I can say is that it was such a mess that feedback feels almost unecessary. It felt like it was beatable, but who the fuck would bother? 20k enemies all shooting at you at once gets boring fast cause you've already quitted the game after the 30 minutes it took to thin out the hordes to figure out where you're supposed to go.

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wacked666 said:

True enough, I'm in the process of retexturing the map now. It's going to be a little less pretty to look at but oh well. Found a couple little things that needed fixing anyway. I will upload the finished map when I've finished. ETA:Tomorrow sometime..


You can eventually keep the map exactly as is if you merge the texture packs. It's not overwhelmingly hard to do, just time consuming (and sometimes a little frustrating).

The way I do it (probably not the best way, but seems to work OK):
- open map in Doom Builder 2
- edit a linedef texture
- write down all the textures showing up in the Used Textures tab on top of the window
- edit a sector flat
- write down all the flats showing up in the Used Textures tab on top of the window
- close Doom Builder 2
- open up Slade 3
- in Slade 3, open up every texture wad I used at once
- in Slade 3, also open up the map wad
- in the map wad, select Archive > Texture Editor
- Slade 3 will tell you there isn't any texture definition and ask if you want to create a texture list, pick "Yes", then "Import from Base resource archive", and close the texture editor window that pops up
- select Archive > New > Entry, and type "PP_START"
- select Archive > New > Entry, and type "P_END"
- copy and paste every texture I've wrote down from the texture wads to the map wad between those two markers
- select them all, make a right click and select Gfx > Add to Patch Table
- select them all again, make a right click and select Gfx > Add to TEXTUREx
- select Archive > New > Entry, and type "FF_START"
- select Archive > New > Entry, and type "F_END"
- copy and paste every flat I've wrote down from the texture wads to the map wad between those two markers
- save and exit

At which point your map should run with nothing but its own wad if it worked correctly.

If some of the textures you used are multipatch textures, it gets much more complicated, as far as I know. Q1tex is full of textures like that. Not sure how to deal with it.

You can load many resources with prboom+. You type something like this in the .bat: ...-iwad doom2.wad -pwad cc4-tex.wad q1tex.wad ngtribute.wad -record...


I do that but it seems to not work so well with texture wads. Perhaps because of conflicting texture lumps?

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dannebubinga said:

edit: oh. I played war to end all wars the other day. All I can say is that it was such a mess that feedback feels almost unecessary. It felt like it was beatable, but who the fuck would bother? 20k enemies all shooting at you at once gets boring fast cause you've already quitted the game after the 30 minutes it took to thin out the hordes to figure out where you're supposed to go.


Just going to ask, would the idea of a holy hell monster count beating level (if done right) still be a good idea for a final level to the wad? If so, I could have a stab at it. The design would probably be similar to Kama Sutra's map29 but much much bigger of course, with some kind of silly name like Doom rehab or something on that line.
I would probably need rehab after building a map of this monstrosity though.......

Oh when my levels for this wad are reached, feel free to slate them as much as you like, especially true grit, that level sucks as it was pretty much the second map I ever made :P

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Sure, go ahead. I'd still rather prefer more shorter maps over one huge.

dobugabumaru said:

j4rio - best I have is Shores of Hell v.2. Not sure how much different it is from #1, but the final area is kept intact.


It was completely different actually, almost to the point that it didn't seem like the same map. Thanks anyways, though.

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Phml said:

You can eventually keep the map exactly as is if you merge the texture packs. It's not overwhelmingly hard to do, just time consuming (and sometimes a little frustrating).


Oh I know, thats why I asked if someone else could do it LOL
no it's fine I can retexture my map it will take 1/100th the time to do that than to build my own mega texture pack. The thing is how is prboom going to handle so many texture packs for all our maps in one big mega wad? There really isnt much point in building a mega texturewad to make even more duplicates of the lumps. I'll just retexture it, I really want my map in this megawad (i spent a hell of a lot of time making it) and it's a small penance to pay, its really my fault for not testing it on prboom+ like i should have. It's about 1/3rd complete now already and I've made a few small improvements to the design so I think I'll be pleased with the overall finished product.

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Slaughtenstein - FDA, sort of. I didn't play it since I did actual FDA, so it's something like half FDA, half slow max. I died kinda stupidly but I was tired so on the other hand I'm quite glad I did. It's still an epic map and quite a welcome change of quality after a bit disappointing start of replaying.

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Got a map idea, working out about halfway through layout and some basic theme. It's very similar to map 15 from ng ... perhaps a bit too similar, but eh, I took inspiration from the big pillar things more than the pyramid. Posting so I have a responsibility to finish it.

Update: layout mostly complete ... now to populate it. Gotta remember how to make the big monster port boxes hahah.

Total area is around 6kx6k linedefs if anyone is wondering.

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"FDA" for KykaMap07. Quotes needed, as I played the original version of this map countless times (and yet you wouldn't believe so, looking at this demo...).

I didn't spot the changes, but my memory isn't the best and this map always confused me (this isn't a criticism). Still as fun as it used to be.

The one complaint I may have with it is having to go through the original Dead Simple after each death, and the fastest as well as easiest strategy for the earlier parts being to just skip everything until you get to the BFG. I mean, I love playing this map, but each time I die, I end up pondering for a few seconds: do I want to go through this not particulary interesting hide-and-seek routine* for the first few minutes to get to the fun part, or am I taking a break?

*Which is something that *can* be interesting in many maps, but here as we're dealing with essentially giant squares and little obstruction, it tends to play the same way, and ends up being more of a matter of hiding behind a corner for a while to get the hordes to converge on your position, then move to the opposite side where the switch is, rince and repeat.

It might sound extreme, but I think giving the BFG right at the start location could make this map much more enticing to replay. Could be just me, though.

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Thumbs up for playing through each map more thoroughly, guys!

Final level concept - I played this before, so just posting my thoughts. I liked it. I think I ran for the archvile at the start, avoided the walkover line before the switch, and killed the archvile, then pressed the switch. iirc, you can avoid the walkover line (spawners) entirely and still max the level, since spawned monsters don't count as kills. But I think that way is slower since you only have ssg. I thought the invuls were unnecessary.

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So, continuing -

hospital - It's nice, but I'm not too sure if it's entirely fitting to the slaughter genre. Requirement of 2-shotting cybs and slightly more monsters at the end are the only parts that make me feel like it. It seems like it would fit more to tom19 and as its quite similar to maps there. There's also slight repetitiveness in encounters and some quite sleazy traps, like those cybs teleporting behind back on roof. No "FDA" as I played it before and watched demo already.

degrassi - This is awesome, and that's pretty much all to it, although there are some huge HOMs appearing in glboom+. It's worth a fix IMO.

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j4rio: I agree that hospital isn't very slaughtery, but I figured slaughter players might like it because of the 2-shotting and slaughter ending. Have you played Silent Hill 2? The two cybs trap on the roof is where Pyramid Head appears and throws you off the roof with his big blade, then you fall through the 3rd floor ceiling and eventually "wake up" with 1% health. I tried doing the 1% health thing without killing the player, but I couldn't do it reliably.

For degrassi I'll try to fix the HOM without desyncing demo. It's just the one water cave that has a HOM, right?

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There's some more, you'll probably have to play through it with nomonsters to pinpoint all of them. I recall at least 3 HOMs when I watched your demo with glb+.

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I have started, I think if I am going to get this right would be to make the map section by section and release the map regularly to be playtested by others. Instead of completing the map beforehand to 100% and having to make drastic changes which might be difficult to implement.
Just to tease, the map starts off in a tech base tower and essentially the first section will be going through the tower to find an exit to the outside world.....from there no real clue at the moment.
@J4rio, I've already made 3 short maps so thought I would do something for a change of pace.

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Progress. First wave of monster porters finished. Four more to go. Up to 95 tags. Still need to test the design but it's pretty easy to copy/paste and fill in little details. Took maybe 20 minutes for 40 or so. Should be a bit faster because of reusing tags. End progress log.

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Good news everyone! Due to a decimal error, I have TWO maps to share! Well they're technically the same, just one has an order of magnitude more mobs. I made some tweaks with that in mind, and I produced the second map, decimal error, from the first map, Wrath of Set. Also, since I corrected this error rather late in editing, both maps have (a few) additional mobs for multiplayer. Solo-net demos should be entertaining.

I hate to interrupt the review of the line up but maybe this map will be a nice break, try something new. The midi is by knightrider of doom btw, black forest. It will do, but maybe a new midi to fit the map would be nice.

The doublefeature is the pair of maps.

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FDAs for WrathOfSet. Multiple deaths, no completion. About an hour long.

I liked the layout, and thought it looked distinctive enough from NG15. I have more reservations about the gameplay.

The main issue in my mind is, it's a BFG map in which you have no clue where the BFG is, and you start only with the SSG (and no RL before entering a key rooom), picking up at best a plasma gun - if you happen to walk into it, you can't really see it from a distance.

Couple that with the height changes, and without foreknowledge, the map starts with a lot of running around and many leaps of faith as you struggle to figure out what's going while being shot at from every direction, horizontal and vertical. Opening up the wrong room too early can result in death. Flipping a switch without knowing exactly the kind of ambush that's about to pop up can result in death. Trying to dodge a mancubus' fireball and getting stuck in a torch can result in death.

The reason there's two FDAs is because the map seemed so insane at first glance I was wondering if this one had too many monsters and the other one was more sane. :)

By the time I finally figured out where the BFG was, in FDA #2, I was burned out (it had been a long time since I started playing, anyway).

Suggestions:

- remove these torches in sector 575 and similar, or stick them on a heightened floor the player can't access, so he can't bump into these.

- lessen the height change, or make it smoother (i.e. double the stairs' length), between the higher floor and these middle floor where the mancubuses sit. You can't see monsters down the stairs from up top, they bunch up and instantly shot back and block you (and mancubus shots at close range can be devastating). If it happened once or twice it would be sufferable, but considering this situation is repeated eight times in the map, it's just tedious.

- add some kind of visual indication to the weapons. Perhaps there could high windows (as to not wake up monsters inside) to each room, and weapons could be on a pillar as to be seen from outside, instantly lowering when the doomguy enters each room. You could use three keycards for the RL rooms and one skullkey for the BFG room, and/or make the BFG room a little more distinctive.

- the BFG room ambush is brutal. Eight cybies, sixteen archies and sixteen revs in this enclosed space with floor height changes! Unless you have ridiculously fast reflexes or planned on playing it extremely safe by opening the doors right before flipping the switch and dashing out of the room right after doing just that, death is almost inevitable on a first playthrough.


...and, you know, now that I look at the map in DB2, I can see I was close to the end, yet it didn't feel fulfilling. I was so struggling to clear things methodically corner after corner, it didn't feel like progress at all. So much of the map is concentrated in those corners with stark height changes, rather than in the middle outdoor area. I wonder how would the entire map play if it was flattened significantly, say by half (so the first floor would be 64px, the second one 128px, the stairs would be 8px each step) - also including those middle hills in there.

Instinctively, I bet the layout would be much more legible, and the monsters would have more mobility, being able to move up and down, spilling from the top to the bottom floor at first, and then chasing you back up there when you go for the rooms, rather than bunching up in positions where the only risk is getting infinitelytallblocked.

Also, truth be told if it were my map I think I'd ditch the middle hills and the two towers directly close to the stairs, just keeping the exit tower and making it more visually foreboding, as well as the cybie and revs platforms, and I'd probably then move the 8 teleport towers towards the middle - not by much, something like 64 pixels maybe. As it is, it does feel a little cramped despite being so big, because you have areas with a lot of room and others where distinctive structures are almost touching each other. This possibly added to my feeling of not getting anywhere, because there wasn't any spot where I could take an all encompassing look and see piles of bodies, the line of sight is relatively obscured everywhere.

...Anyway. Lots of criticism, but I did enjoy it enough to play it for an hour, and objectively I can see with foreknowledge it can be a fun map even in its current form. I genuinely think it's a good base - I just also think it can be improved. :)

Oh, and I liked the MIDI. It seemed fitting.

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Ooo, cool idea. I went through both to get what was the doubling about and having the whole inner section overfilled seems really neat, well at least on the paper. :p Having to spam out 2000 surviving Hks afterwards is not cool on any sort of paper.

I think it'd be better to ditch one of those and focus on getting it tweaked instead of keeping both. I'd keep on tweaking the decimal one, as it's the original idea and basically the reason behind how layout looks currently. However, it'll require a lot of testing, tweaking and altering to get it right, because having to take out thousands of HKs is just mind-numbing tedium. What do you think?

All notes here will be just for decimal error. At first I'd consider making the map overfilled with high supplies of low tier monsters (imps, demons) once you progress rather than Hks/revs - they could also be there but in much more neglectable numbers - and adding much more cybers into action. After pressing all switches behind locked, you could make a caco waves enter the scene. With that in mind, I'd replace invulnerabilities with megaspheres. Also, I'd remove pink BFG, as it removes the only aspect of BFG that you always have to keep in mind - when to restock - and instead add a lot of stacked cell bulks at strategic places that get revealed at certain points while progressing. The four rooms behind locked doors should be relatively identical in encounters and items placed there, as having BFG behind one while RL behind other is quite awkward, I think. I'd tweak all encounters there to be aimed for RL, and once you press all 4, then BFG becomes obtainable (you could place one unreachable BFG on higher platform in each of those 4 locked rooms and once 4 switches in those rooms are pressed, platforms with BFGs will lower down). Also, at the beginning, I'd make RL available right away instead of having to enter those locked rooms, because cutting through monsters with PG just doesn't work well and if using it to poke monsters from safe distance, it takes a long while and gets boring quickly.

I think that's about all I had in mind.

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Also, at the beginning, I'd make RL available right away instead of having to enter those locked rooms, because cutting through monsters with PG just doesn't work well and if using it to poke monsters from safe distance, it takes a long while and gets boring quickly.


Yep. Same thought came to my mind while playing and I forgot to mention it. The PG makes for a great tool to cut small openings through hordes to get to a particular point quick, but isn't suitable for dispatching said hordes, and having nothing but the PG essentially forces a speedrunning-ish playstyle at least until you enter a room and grab a RL.

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I like all those ideas, but which map should I focus on? Phml says the less populated, j4rio the more populated. Just seems a bit split. BTW I was feeling like I should include the RL in the beginning package but I probably forgot since I uploaded it at 3am hahah.

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Whatever rocks your boat. Most of Phml's notes apply to both versions nonetheless. It's just the final part that gets radically different.

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Phml said:

wall of text


I keep forgetting to visit these forums so my replies might take some time.

I watched the enitre FDA and every time you died after dying at the tower for the first time I was sure you were done, but you just kept on coming back for more. :D

I'll look into tweaking the first fight, I've got an idea on how to make it a bit more interesting.

For the cave part I was thinking I could make some tunnels on the right side that lead to a platform above the large revenant rock.
Opening of walls, I'll see what I can do.
(I will add more lava falls too)

You probably won't like the outdoor area fight, because I don't, will probably change it.

I might have gone a bit far with the difficulty in the tower, I'll tone it down a little.

The cave secret, I don't know what to do about that, changing the texture just makes it instantly obvious that its a secret so we'll see how that turns out.

Sidenote: As for all my other maps, I feel like they can be removed or just placed in one of the secondary wads, Fourtress is the only one I would like in the main wad.

I'll just get to work on this then...

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FDA for Boom Town. A few deaths, eventually reaches the exit.

I loved it. Great example of slaughter gameplay, using so little to make a fairly dynamic fight. Great use of colors and monster placement. Nice music choice as well.

My only nitpick would be the end. It's not a big deal and I wouldn't mind if it remained as is, but that final horde of revenants coming out nicely to die to your BFG shots is nothing but a mindless timesink, you can essentially just sit there and wait.

I don't think making the end significantly harder would be good, this is perfect as a 3 to 4 minute map, but adding another opening through which revs came to you could spice it up a little.

Here's such an edit, it seems to play better. You be the judge.

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I recall that map quite well, so I might as well vouch Phml. What I'm not too fond of is that the beginning is slightly too luckbased and the pinky BFG. I realised that there is little to no reason to use it over regular BFG with cell bulks placed in strategic places. Not requiring to restock is just removing element of BFG usage. It's sort of tolerable if there is BFG and at some point after progress you also get spamFG, but still, my opinion on it is that it just shows author is too lazy to place ammo (or map is beyond hopeless - uh, MixedNuts, anyone?)
I also tinkered with it a bit and scaled/edited it at some point - the beginning plays IMO much better but halfway through it gets tedious. I think I left a link to it somewhere buried in this thread.

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FDA for Core Annihalation (is the spelling intentional?). Many, many deaths, gets an exit eventually.

I liked it. Good looks. Fun gameplay for the most part. I thought there were some issues with the pacing.

Now, I somehow managed to miss all the numerous hints about the BFG, and so did most of my playing without knowing when (or if) I would be able to pick it up. I guess no matter how many flashing neon signs you put in front of someone, it won't do a lot of good if they're blind. :)

Trying to rationalize what happened, in the big room where the BFG actually is, while it is in a sector with a blinking light, it is far away and there's a cyberdemon right in front of it. Combined with the other cyberdemon on the other side, the arachnotrons and mancubuses shooting you from every side, and the doomguy standing on a bridge, I wasn't too inclined to stop and take a careful look.

No doubt it's my own mistake rather than a map flaw, a more patient player could have killed everything and then taken a look, and a more observative player would have noticed the BFG anyway. Still, perhaps the bridges (sector 256 and 257) could be raised by 32 pixels right away, as to make it obvious these will become bridges eventually, and the cybies could be roaming on these bridges rather than in front of the objectives, so you can get a better look at everything and/or eventually clear the arachnotrons and mancubuses without overwhelming pressure, provided you're careful.

As for the "BFG" written indication on the floor next to the switch, I guess I'm just not that bright, heh. Likely my prejudices at work - written indications break the fourth wall IMHO, so I didn't expect to find one in this good-looking and relatively atmospheric map. :)

Onto my perceived pacing problems. It seems either too easy to the point of being boring to dispatch everything room by room, or too had to the point of being frustrating to just run through everything. Finding a balance between speeding and killing is often the rewarding part in the Doom metagame, but somehow it didn't work for me with this map.

Several possible reasons:

- the layout lending itself to camping choke points. Probably not much can be done about that.

- the revenants protecting the BFG switch. Reading previous feedback it seems they were imps and danne suggested you change them to revs. I can see how imps would be ridiculously easy to plow through, but revs seem kind of tedious to clear with the current size of the room, coupled with the pillars. Shooting rockets at a diagonal angle so autoaim does its magic, not hitting yourself with too much splash damage, avoiding pillars *and* avoiding tracking fireballs... It's a bit too much in that limited space. I'd suggest removing all, or half of the pillars, or increasing sector 311 to 256 width per side instead of 192 - and possibly sector 233 to 176 width rather than 112.

- the bridge room coupled with cyberdemons. You just don't want to fight them there, it's too dangerous especially with the arachnotrons and mancs, so you wait until they come out. You wait, you wait, you wait... And while doing so, you eventually get killed by a stray baron from behind if you doze off a little. :)

I think everything in the final room should have been non-deaf. It's kind of weird to have a few revenants left here and there after you clear the first wave, and it makes the fight less threatening as they all come from one direction.

This map was posted a long time ago and you may already know that by now, but you can make monster teleporters detached from the main map by using the "Merge Sectors" feature - select any 2 sectors and press J in DB2. By merging, say, the sector the player starts in, or the first sector where he shoots something (and makes sound) to a dummy sector attached to your monster teleporter, you can put said monster teleporter anywhere you want, without the need to physically attach it to the rest of your map, as the sound of gunfire will be applied to all parts of the joined sector, and propagate to your monster teleport.

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Not requiring to restock is just removing element of BFG usage.


I agree with you, and that was my prime objection to the concept itself. At the same time, the BFG is a complex enough weapon to make its usage entertaining even with limitless ammo.

I think it works well in this map, letting you focus entirely on managing movement, both your own and the hordes. It probably wouldn't make or break anything to replace it with a standard BFG and litter the floor with cell packs, but I don't see an issue with the pink BFG here.

You do raise a good point by mentioning this: the map lacks a death exit.

I thought the start was OK. It took me a while to intuively make up some kind of strategy, but going to the right away and focusing on fighting without moving too much in either the top part or the bottom part, and then dashing to the opposite side when the hordes are about to overwhelm you seem to work reliably.

I'll try to hunt and play your edit.

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Found it.

You madman. :p

No FDA, as I just died at the start over and over and gave up. I think I could have pulled through eventually, but didn't feel like trying.

In my opinion, the original is better. PC took a simple concept and made a map about it with just the right length. Yours stretches it so much it becomes unrecognizable; what used to be a sprint becomes a marathon. Both playstyles can be fun, but I don't think the endurance approach works well here.

In PC's original map, you are given plenty of choices. Right away, you can hang back, you can climb to the left or to the right. You can try to slip through to the invul sphere, you can take out everything before triggering the next part, or you can find an equilibrium you're comfortable with.

I know you're not fond of invul spheres, but I feel it is crucial to this particular map. Remove it, and many of your options are also gone. It plays a central role in this map, on both strategical and tactical levels.

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